Covid-19 Update

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Thursday 8th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I did not quite say that I did not know how many people use the app; I said that we do not know who is using it. We keep an eye on it and, to date, its use has not dropped, but we are naturally concerned that trust in the app will deteriorate and that is why we are looking carefully at the advice that comes out of being pinged. Some 19 million people have the app. It is an enormously valuable resource, and one that we believe has made a big impact.

Predicting long Covid and infections is extremely difficult because we do not know what the infection rate is going to be. We are in a race against the virus. I hope that very soon the impact of the vaccine will bring R below one and the disease will start going down instead of up. But I cannot tell the noble Baroness, exactly when that date will be.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, last month the Minister made some highly critical comments about my having had the temerity to question the wisdom of government restrictions. Yet we now know that the last Secretary of State did not believe in their value either. Given the small risk to children and teachers from the virus, can my noble friend explain what the value has been—backed by evidence—of severely disrupting the education of hundreds of thousands of children by enforced isolation? Or should we be similarly sceptical about that policy?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I know that my noble friend is sceptical of almost everything to do with the Government, and I am not quite sure how to address that question—but I will take it seriously. The bottom line is that children are a vector of infection, and, during the tough days before the vaccine, they were the ones who spread the disease around, accounting for a very large proportion of the numbers. As a father of four, I can tell you that it was extremely frustrating to have our children sent home, but, none the less, it was an important and impactful aspect of our fight against Covid.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 15th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the PCR test is very sensitive. Most people who take the test are presenting a symptom, so a very high proportion of those positives are people who have the disease when they take it. Of course, there are many who have the disease and do not take a test at all, so there is more disease in the population than accounted for in the positive tests. There is a very small proportion of people who might have shreds of the virus from a previous infection who then test positive, but it is thought that that proportion is very small.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, yesterday the Prime Minister said that this extension of restrictions will

“save many thousands of lives”

and he was backed up by the Health Secretary. Since 18 May, the weekly average number of deaths per day from Covid has been in single figures—almost all of whom will have had underlying health conditions—while each day about 450 people die from cancer. Will the Government publish, or will my noble friend give Parliament the opportunity to see, the evidence and research behind the “many thousands of lives” saved?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I completely understand the point. There is a lag to the deaths. At the moment, we are seeing the infection rate go up, which is leading to a small increase in hospitalisations. As my noble friend quite rightly points out, that increase has not been seen in deaths yet, and thank goodness for that. We do not know for sure what proportion of infections will lead to severe disease or death. We know it is a percentage; we do not know exactly what percentage. But should the disease spread through millions in the population, which is entirely possible without the NPIs we have in place, then the number of deaths will be very significant—possibly as many as we have seen already.

Covid-19 Internal Review

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Thursday 20th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, we are enormously grateful for the advice of SAGE, which, as the noble Lord will know, is a very large collection of scientists, many of whom have many different views. The JBC takes their advice into account, and we are absolutely monitoring the situation as closely as we possibly can. We celebrate the transparency with which the very large amount of surveillance data is handled and published for public analysis. Measures are in place on testing, therapeutics and social distancing, but the number one measure is the vaccine. The rollout of the vaccine is what will give this country the protection it needs.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I reiterate my congratulations to the Government and all those involved in the fantastic success of the vaccine development and rollout programme. This inquiry does not need to be long and drawn out. Will my noble friend confirm that it will look into the accuracy of—and contradictory nature of some of—the scientific advice received over the last year, the appalling scaremongering of some of the media, the validity of political decisions such as lockdowns, and whether the government reaction to the pandemic, and the reaction overall, has been proportionate?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister promised on 12 May that there will be a statutory inquiry beginning in spring 2022, as my noble friend alluded to. Its chair and terms of reference will be announced before spring 2022, and it will be for the terms of reference and the chair to determine exactly what subjects are looked at.

Covid-19: Obesity

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 21st April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the report by the World Obesity Federation COVID-19 and Obesity: The 2021 Atlas, published on 4 March, which shows a correlation between obesity rates and COVID-19 death rates; and what steps they intend to take in response.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, the World Obesity Federation’s Covid-19 report makes stark reading for us all. It is clear that excess weight is one of the few modifiable factors that contribute to severe symptoms of Covid and, very sadly in some cases, to death. This is a wake-up call. Britain is clearly carrying too much weight. That is why the Government are committed to helping the country reduce obesity and get fit and healthy.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to hear my noble friend’s response because this research shows that being obese is a huge factor in deaths from Covid, second only to old age. It was described as a wake-up call to Governments by the head of the WHO, and last week the British Heart Foundation published research that showed that 31,000 deaths per year from heart conditions are caused by excess weight. The Prime Minister has said that it was obesity that nearly killed him with Covid last year. I welcome the steps that the Government are taking over junk food, but what further action can they take so that everyone, especially those in leadership roles—be it in schools, the NHS or, indeed, Parliament—understands that being obese should not be socially acceptable, because obesity is killing people?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I completely agree with my noble friend that obesity has been a sad and tragic driver of death from Covid. Overweight people are 67% more likely to need intensive care from Covid than those who are not overweight. The list of the measures that we have in place is extensive—there are 17 in number before me—and we are not going to stop there. This is a really important project for the Government. It is not our business to shame those who are overweight, but it is our business to enable those who seek to lead fit and healthy lives to take the necessary steps to reach that objective.

Covid-19: Update

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 20th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My noble friend is right: the people of Leicester have done a terrific job at getting the rate down. It was once 571 per 100,000, and on 15 April it was 74 per 100,000. This is a huge achievement, but I am afraid that behind that lie some concerns. Nationally, we are at 26 per 100,000, but 23 local authorities have cases above 50, and Leicester is one of them. In some areas of the country, the virus is proving extremely resilient. That is partly due to the deprivation referred to by the right reverend Prelate and the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and partly due to the cultural and practical habits of those involved. We are working really hard to try to address those knotty problems, and I welcome the civic engagement of all who live there.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, last week, the Prime Minister said that the lockdown has been doing

“the bulk of the work in reducing”—

—infections, then Simon Stevens said that

“'Vaccines are successfully reducing hospitalisations and deaths”.

Around the world, lockdowns are not being as successful as one might have imagined, so could my noble friend say whether it is the Government’s opinion that the reduction of deaths and serious cases is down to the lockdown or to the amazing success of vaccinations? Secondly, is what I read true—and it may be completely untrue—that the average age of death from Covid is higher than average life expectancy?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My noble friend is quite wrong if he is seeking to imply that there is any doubt about lockdowns working. Lockdowns work incredibly well because they put space between people. The science behind lockdowns is very simple and incontrovertible. That is the learning of the last year, and those who seek to cast doubt on it, time and again, session after session, do us no favours at all. We are at a moment in the cycle of the disease when the weight is being lifted by the lockdown and by the vaccine—it is somewhere between the two. I cannot call it, and Sir Simon Stevens and the Prime Minister cannot call it—it is somewhere between the two. But we should be in no doubt: if there is a variant of concern that makes landfall in the UK and threatens the success of the vaccine, we will be back in lockdown. We should be extremely careful to avoid that eventuality.

Covid Contracts: Judicial Review

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Monday 1st March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, it is fair to say that I have not been uncritical of some of the Government’s approach to this virus crisis and, of course, it is important that the Government follow proper procedures and are beyond reproach in their procurement policy. However, in relation to the judgment, did the judicial review find any impropriety in the behaviour of the Government, or was it a question of straining every sinew to deliver essential equipment to front-line workers, as the Government were urged to do by Rachel Reeves down at the other end?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My noble friend puts it extremely well. The judge said

“the overall picture shows the Secretary of State moving close to complete compliance. The evidence as a whole suggests that the backlog arose largely in the first few months of the pandemic and that officials began to bear down on it during the autumn of 2020”.

The judgment was entirely about the timing of the publication; it had nothing to do with the awarding of the contracts themselves. From that point of view, it is a ringing endorsement of the actions of officials in this matter.

Covid-19

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Thursday 11th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord seems to be forgetting that it is not Parliament that is going to be sending people to prison but the courts, and courts are perfectly capable of interpreting the law. They are perfectly capable of assessing the nature and gravity of the offence. I am simply repeating the section of the Act on which people will be prosecuted if they commit a fraud. I am reminding noble Lords and all those thinking about committing fraud on their passenger locator form that the maximum sentence for committing fraud is 10 years, and it will be up to the courts to decide what kind of sentence they apply.

[Lord Robathan (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I first thank the Minister and the Chief Medical Officer Chris Whitty for a very useful session yesterday on Covid-19 therapeutics. I found it extremely informative. I can see the logic and the good sense behind the quarantine policy—but, bearing in mind Lord Acton’s famous dictum, and knowing that no court will send anybody to prison for 10 years for incorrect information being put on a form under the Fraud Act, does my noble friend not realise that the Secretary of State’s crazed, hollow and exaggerated threats about 10 years in jail undermine the whole policy? If he does not agree with that, could he please defend them? Because so far, I am afraid, I find myself agreeing, unusually, with the two Liberal Democrats, the noble Lords, Lord Taylor and Lord Beith.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I think I have made the point reasonably clearly, but I am happy to make it again: it is up to the courts to decide how long people go to prison for and it is up to Parliament to decide on Acts. The Act is very clear; it was made in 2006, and it is up to the Crown Court to decide for how long someone goes to prison. It is unfortunate that my noble friend described the Secretary of State in those terms. It is the kind of language that does him no credit. These are extremely important measures. They are devised to protect the country and the vaccine from the very serious threat of mutations of the disease, and they are enormously supported by the public.

Covid-19: Restrictions

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Thursday 7th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the success of the restrictions introduced to address the Covid-19 pandemic in reducing the transmission of Covid-19 between 1 July and 31 December 2020.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, the science of virus transmission is very simple: tiny bugs spread by contact and by breath. Lockdowns work because they put space between people, but there are costs—horrible costs. That is why each day we publish gigabytes of data on infection rates, we analyse the patterns and we design lockdowns to have the maximum impact for the lowest economic and social cost.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, yes, but: in the last few months we have seen ever more stringent restrictions—tiers 3 and 4, the failed circuit breaker in Wales, a second lockdown which ended only just over a month ago, and now a third lockdown—yet cases keep rising. The Prime Minister said on “The Andrew Marr Show” on Sunday that the evidence is not clear. We all want to see policy based on empirical evidence, so please, can the Minister go back to the department and instigate a detailed examination of why these hugely damaging restrictions have not seen a reduction in infections, hospitalisations and deaths?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for that sage advice. I can reassure him that lockdowns do work—in Leicester, Bolton, Luton, Liverpool—and I can give him very clear case studies of how specific measures have affected national, regional and local outbreak infection rates. The truth is that tier 3 was enough for the original variant, but it is not enough for the new variant, which is 70% more transmittable. That has hit our country hard, which is why we have to have this new, horrible lockdown.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 15th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con) [V]]

I completely acknowledge the correlation between mortality and learning difficulties that the noble Baroness alludes to. PHE has looked at this in respect of Covid very closely. That evidence played into the JCVI prioritisation process; it landed on age as the main determinant for that process but continues to review this based on evidence. The noble Baroness makes a good case, but I reassure her that the JCVI has looked at all this evidence very closely.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, during all these restrictions and over the lockdown we had for one month, which ended on 2 December, we have been told that the Government are following the science—the “unstoppable force of science”, to quote the Secretary of State in yesterday’s Statement. However, in late September SAGE recommended circuit breakers of two to three weeks, which Wales imposed for 17 days until 9 November; it now has coronavirus rates that are nearly three times those of England. What confidence does the Minister have in the scientific advice he is given?

[Lord Bethell (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the restrictions in England have never been based on a two-week circuit breaker. It was not a policy that the DHSC supported.

DHSC Answers to Written Questions

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 25th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I do not underestimate the pressure under which the Department of Health has been put and pay tribute to my noble friend for the number of times that he comes here to answer Questions. However, the data behind this virus is hugely important. I put down a Question asking about the number of NHS workers—doctors and nurses—who have been killed by the virus. The answer that came back was: “We don’t know”. Surely, we must know this. I have also asked a question in this Chamber, not a written one, about what the strategy is without vaccinations. A vaccine has now come, but we must know what the strategy is. Are we going to go into another lockdown if the infection rate rises again? Perhaps the Minister can answer that now?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, matching the data on deaths with the HR records of the NHS is actually very difficult. It cannot be done easily, or even accurately. Our strategy is crystal clear: to protect the NHS, keep the schools open and encourage the economy while we wait for the vaccine to be deployed.

Covid-19: Conflicts of Interest

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 18th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, there is a very clear code for special advisers. They have line management through the Secretary of State and often on to Downing Street. The role of spads during the pandemic has been exceptional. I pay tribute to the large number of spads who made a huge difference, and I am very proud of the work that they have done.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I have a certain sense of déjà vu, since this is almost exactly the same question that was asked yesterday, so I will try not to be repetitive. I know my noble friend is, like me, grateful to those who came forward and freely, pro bono, gave their time, expertise and experience to assist in this terrible crisis. I know he will also, like me, share the view that some people are grubbing around, looking for any dirt they can sling that will deter good public-spirited people from coming forward in future. I have one specific question: could the Minister tell me how long, typically, a procurement process would last if you are looking to get PPE through the Civil Service procurement procedures?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a very good point. I cannot tell him how long it would typically take but I can tell him that if everything went as smoothly as possible, 25 days is the absolute minimum that a procurement process could take. That is why, on 18 March, new guidelines for procurement were put in place. The PPE team converted those into a very diligent eight-step process, the effectiveness of which the NAO has paid tribute to. We have put in place exactly the kind of reasonable processes necessary to respond to a pandemic like this, resulting in the purchase of billions of items of PPE to protect those on the front line of our healthcare.

Department of Health and Social Care: Unpaid Advisers

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 17th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I take this opportunity to thank the very large number of Members of this House who contacted me during that period. My inbox was filled with thousands of emails every day, including emails from Lib Dem, Labour, Cross-Bench and Tory Peers, all of them seeking to help us during our time of need. I sought to reply to as many as I could, but I fear that I did not reply to enough and I did not mean any discourtesy. I spoke to a large number of those people, as my transparency register makes very clear. The telephone call on 6 April to which the noble Baroness has referred was not in any way inappropriate. I am extremely grateful to all those who stepped forward to help us when we needed it.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, this is a huge crisis in unprecedented times. My noble friend the Minister has already thanked those who are trying to help the country at a very difficult time. Does he find it regrettable, as I do, that some are sniping at those who, for good reasons of public service, are giving their time, energy and expertise pro bono in service to this country and everyone in this Chamber?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, scrutiny of appointments, a commitment to transparency and declaration of interests are absolute values that we should all subscribe to. However, sneering at those who step forward to help, denigrating the intentions of volunteers who try to play their role and smearing the good name of people who have done the right thing does not have any role in this House.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Thursday 12th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises a very good point. We pay tribute to all those who stepped forward, whether they were young doctors at the end of their training or older doctors who were returning to the profession. It was a really important and touching moment when those doctors stepped forward. He is right that not all of them were needed or used during the pandemic. My understanding, from the deployment team, is that they are looking at all avenues to have the largest army of people possible in order to use the vaccine. I am not exactly sure of the exact status of the 27,000 doctors he alluded to, but I would be glad to write to him with details.

[Lord Robathan (Con) [V]]

My Lords, according to local media, on Tuesday the city of Leicester—I live in Leicestershire—recorded the highest number of infections since the beginning of the pandemic. Leicester has been locked down since June, so could my noble friend confirm that this is the case, and, if it is, could he say whether this has happened because we do not know very much about the virus, whether it is the case that lockdowns do not work—as some people say—or is he going to blame the good people of Leicester for not abiding by the regulations?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I greatly thank the people of Leicester for their patience with the lockdown and with the very large number of measures that have been put in place there. The noble Lord is aware that some communities live and work very close to each other, and the transmission of the disease is affected by a very large number of factors. I cannot explain to him exactly why the infection rates are so high in Leicester today, but I absolutely applaud all those who have been working hard in that city to keep the epidemic at bay.

Covid-19: Test Results

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 27th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right to cite the use of wastewater analysis. The innovations and partnerships team at test and trace has a programme to look at precisely that method. We are particularly interested in using targeted wastewater analysis at schools and in social care in order to promptly identify the presence of the disease. We are looking in particular at technologies that have already been trialled in Italy. The trials are extremely promising, but I would be happy to make that connection between South West Water and the relevant team so that their knowledge is usefully used.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, what study has been undertaken into the efficiency and accuracy of these tests; by which I mean how many false positives and false negatives there are? Furthermore, what is the long-term strategy regarding this? If, every time restrictions are relaxed, tests show that infections rise, are we then just to continue imposing lockdowns ad infinitum?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, we have a very intense and rigorous validation programme around the various tests. They look at sensitivity and false positives. We do not believe that the current machines we use have a high risk in that department, but we always keep a close look at it. I am extremely grateful to those businesses that have developed new and innovative tests that we are rolling out all the time.

Covid-19: Great Barrington Declaration

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 13th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the Great Barrington Declaration on the (1) physical, and (2) mental, health impacts of COVID-19 policies.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)]

My Lords, the analysis of the Department of Health and Social Care, the Office for National Statistics and the Government Actuary is clear. Mitigations have prevented more than 500,000 deaths and the associated heartache. As the Prime Minister made clear yesterday, it is right to look at alternatives, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for his Question. However, having looked at the Great Barrington declaration, we have decided that the idea of a great prevention is bad science and bad economics, and it is impractical. It would be an indefensible moral decision for any Government to take.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, the scientists from Oxford, Stanford and Harvard who are behind this declaration should surely be listened to as much as, for instance, the discredited Professor Ferguson or indeed SAGE. We know that NHS waiting lists are at an all-time high and that 3 million cancer screenings have been missed. We know that the average age of those dying from Covid is 82.4 years—higher than from other causes—and that a total of 313 people under the age of 60 and without comorbidities have died in English hospitals from Covid. Current policies are not working. Will the Government stop digging, get out of their hole and go back to first principles to determine the objective of their Covid policy, and then change tack to achieve that objective?

Hospitals and Nursing Homes: Do Not Resuscitate Notices

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Thursday 1st October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the benefits of living wills are enormous, both for those entering the last stages of their life and their loved ones. It is something that we are keen to encourage. I do not know the precise arrangements for how GPs play a role in that, but I will be glad to write to the noble Baroness and explain what provisions are in place for encouraging the use of living wills.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I commend my noble friend for his balanced comments on this extremely fraught situation—I think everything has just about been said. Every life is, of course, to be valued but many of us as we get older—dare I say, we are quite a lot older in this House than the average population—will be looking at whether we want a do not resuscitate order in our living will. That is why I commend the idea from the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, of spreading this information around.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My noble friend puts it all very well. It is my birthday today, so I am feeling a little bit older and thoughtful on these subjects. On a serious point, living wills have enormous benefits and give peace of mind to those who enter nursing homes and hospitals, and their loved ones. We will look carefully at this important point and I will share my correspondence with the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, with my noble friend.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Thursday 10th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, this country has been absolutely on the front foot on vaccines. We have negotiated agreements with six different vaccine providers for 340 million courses of vaccine. We are completely open to anything that is effective, and we have championed the cause of fair vaccine distribution on a global basis.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I regret to say that this Government’s policy on Covid is contradictory, confusing, hugely damaging to the country and, frankly, nonsensical. Should I have the opportunity, I will vote against it. We were exhorted, from the very beginning of this public health crisis, to save lives. As noble Lords know, some 11,000 people die on average every week in the UK under normal circumstances, so can the Minister tell us how many people under the age of 65 have died of coronavirus in the last 26 weeks? Of those, how many did not have some serious underlying health condition such as diabetes, obesity, respiratory problems or the like? If he does not have those figures to hand, perhaps he might write to me and put them in the public domain by putting them in the Library.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely welcome the challenge from my noble friend but, respectfully, I completely disagree with his approach. I want to flag two issues. The first is the enormous public support for the Government’s response to Covid and their adherence to the measures we have introduced. The second is the recent King’s College survey, published today, showing that on top of the deaths, 300,000 people in the UK have reported symptoms that last more than a month and 60,000 have been ill for more than three months. The effects of this disease go far beyond the “simply recover the next day” effects of flu; it is a profound illness that we are right to try to suppress.

Covid-19: R Rate and Lockdown Measures

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 9th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell [V]]

The fear of a second wave is profound. We have seen what happened in Singapore and we remain vigilant. However, enormous progress is being made against the epidemic, as the noble Lord will have seen from recent figures. We have put in huge infrastructure to protect ourselves in the winter, which is the moment of greatest anxiety. That includes Europe’s biggest testing programme, stockpiling medicines, upgrading NHS capacity, the recruitment of returning staff to the NHS and—as I mentioned to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton—the implementation of a local action plan regime which will give teeth to our measures on a local basis.

[Lord Robathan (Con) [V]]

As my noble friend has admitted, the scientific advice and modelling have been confused, often contradictory and changing as nobody knows a lot about this virus or its progress. Many believe that the virus arrived here as early as November and has swept through the population, often without symptoms. The figures for deaths may be too low or too high because nobody really knows. We have mortgaged this country’s future and our children’s future on uncertain science. The Health Secretary has now described the virus as

“in retreat across the land”.

Will the Government lift all lockdowns now, or as soon as possible, as has happened in New Zealand? Let us all hope the entire lockdown was not a catastrophic error.

[Lord Bethell [V]]

I share my noble friend’s frustration that this disease has proved a horrid and at times confusing foe, but I testify to the strength of the scientific advice we have been given. We do not expect scientists to agree. We believe that a degree of conflict is the right approach to trying to find the right answer. The role of the CMO and the Government’s chief scientist is to distil the advice of a great many sources into the best possible advice. We expect there to be a dialectic, with some form of conflict. I do not believe that we have made profound mistakes on the science. In fact, I believe that the scientists have been wise and thoughtful in the advice and recommendations that they have given us.

Covid-19: Obese and Overweight People

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is entirely right. The review has done an excellent job of laying a path for greater understanding of the disease and is informing the PHE response. GPs already have a very clear work plan for advising BME communities on the threat of diabetes, in particular, and on obesity and healthy living for all circumstances. This will be redoubled during the epidemic that we are experiencing.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

I welcome the Minister’s statement and indeed the leadership shown by the Prime Minister, but we need to take this further and show leadership from everybody in positions of authority and in politics. I particularly home in on health professionals and teachers because, for too long, there has been, I regret to say, a large number of very overweight people in the NHS and in our schools, setting a very bad example to children and people in hospital. People must be encouraged to take personal responsibility. I am afraid that they know what makes them fat, they need to be told what makes them fat and, dare I say it, they need to be shamed for eating and drinking too much.

[Lord Bethell]

My noble friend is right that personal responsibility and the leadership of those in areas of responsibility are incredibly important. Shame is not a policy that the Government particularly endorse, but I will confess to personally having a sense that I need to lose a stone in order to be match fit for the winter. I commit to my noble friend to undertake this arduous and difficult task over the next three months and will account to him on what progress I have made.

Covid-19

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Thursday 23rd April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, addresses a very difficult problem. The programme we are looking at, announced earlier today with the change to our guidelines, is the testing of asymptomatic carers and residents in care homes. It is a natural and growing concern that the disease may be present in an asymptomatic form. We are determined to get the infection out of our care homes and the NHS.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, this lockdown is hugely damaging to the country, particularly to the future prosperity and education of our young people. Nobody knows, as the Minister has just said, how many people have had or have this ghastly virus and recovered. Many suggest that it is several million, possibly many millions. If that is the case, it leads to another suggestion: the mortality rate may be less than 1%. Some say—I am not an expert on this at all—that it is as low as 0.1%. If that is the case, what implications would that have on the Government’s policy of balancing the future well-being of this country and its people with dealing with this ghastly health crisis?

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Lord, Lord Robathan, makes a fair point. I reassure him that we are investing in a massive 20,000-person surveillance by the ONS to get to the bottom of the mystery which he describes. Every piece of evidence we have from every country around the world suggests that the number of people who have been through the disease is a tiny proportion of the population, and that the amount of recovery and antibody immunity in the country is likely to be in single figures. This is one of the great challenges of the virus and the situation it presents to us.

Coronavirus (COVID-19)

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 3rd March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, it is not the role of the Department of Health and Social Care to lead on this matter, but I am aware that the House authorities are very sensitive to the points made by the noble Baroness. Ultimately, it will be up to the Leader’s Office, working with the House authorities, to make decisions on the matters she describes.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, this is a grave issue, but my noble friend’s response has been incredibly balanced. A huge number of people, including me, are concerned that we will overreact—although the Minister has said that we will not—and cause panic in the country, where panic should not be seen.

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Lord makes an important point. Polling to date has demonstrated that the British public have left the moment of complacency and are now seriously focused on this issue. Their trust in the Government remains high, and their engagement on solutions is profound. That feels like the right place to be.

Criminal Records Notifications Disclosure

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 15th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The original database was put together in 2012, and records suggest that the problem was first identified in 2015. When I asked about these dates, I shared some of the surprise in the House at these extremely long time periods, but I reassure noble Lords that our partners are understanding of the problems we face, because every country has legacy police database issues of its own. All countries are trying to meet the needs of the 21st century, particularly by turning archive and legacy data into something that is usable today. It is noticeable that when the alert was shared at the Council of Europe working group which discusses mutual collaboration on policing issues, there was positive and understanding feedback from our EU partners.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend tell me the Government’s position on future collaboration with other EU police forces after we leave the EU, because this is an important issue?

[Lord Bethell]

My noble friend is right, and police collaboration after Brexit is one of the big priorities of this Government. That is why in the implementation period, we will be discussing this with the EU and our partners. The political declaration envisages a relationship spanning operational and judicial co-operation, data-driven law enforcement and multilateral co-operation through EU agencies. Those three important silos will be the basis of our ongoing negotiations.