European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 5) Bill

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Adonis

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 8th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, in rising to support my noble friend, I am somewhat confused because this is a Private Member’s Bill that was absolutely pushed by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, who is not here today, from the Labour Front Bench only on Thursday. It was then taken forward by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, who is not here today, and now it is being taken forward by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson. I am sure that that is all normal, but this is a huge constitutional step which seems to have, as my noble friend Lord Forsyth said, no parents. This is a very important step and we seem to be drifting into it without any considered thought at all.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, what has just been demonstrated is that the Bill has many parents and very wide support across the House. The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is completely conclusive. It is for the House of Commons to decide what the date should be. The Commons have invited us to give them this power, and I think that we should get on with it.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Exit Day) (Amendment) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Adonis

Wednesday 27th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Adonis]

The comments we have heard from noble Lords on the Conservative Benches over the past half-hour demonstrate the reason why that once great party is in the position it is in at the moment. It has not come to terms with the basic problem, which is Brexit itself. Brexit has now destroyed two Prime Ministers in a row. It has virtually destroyed this Government. It has proved to be a totally unviable policy. The best advice I can offer, with great humility, to the next Prime Minister is: do not proceed with Brexit or it will destroy you too, because the recriminations have started. They always start in situations such as this. We have had speeches about betrayal and claims that somehow Brexit, which was begun by this Government, was somehow inflicted upon us by the European Union. This is all delusional. Until we cease the delusions, we will not be able to get things right for the country.

What is the right way of describing what has happened? It was not possible to negotiate a Brexit deal that met the promises that were made in the referendum campaign three years ago. That was not because of the actions of people like me—it turns out that the noble Lord thinks we are somehow responsible for the fact that Brexit did not work—but because of the nature of the Brexit proposition. It was not possible to leave the club and keep all the benefits. That was the fundamental delusion and the lie that was told to the British people.

The great unravelling is starting. I suspect that the recriminations we have heard this afternoon will be just the beginning of what will happen for a long period. It is extremely sad for the country—I understand that—but the conclusion which I draw, and which I believe the House will draw in time, is that the best way of dealing with this is not to proceed with Brexit but to be honest with the country that this is not a project that could be taken forward with advantage.

[Lord Robathan]

My Lords—

[Lord Adonis]

The noble Lord has made a speech. Will he at least allow me to finish my remarks? Then, I will happily give way to him.

The right thing for Parliament to do in this situation is to put its wisdom at the disposal of the nation, which is our job, and, now we can see the fruits of Brexit and the situation we are now in as a country, put it back to the people in a referendum giving them the option to remain. This is not a complicated situation; this is a simple situation. I am well aware that the recriminations will carry on for a long period. Indeed, I think that will inevitably be the case because the damage that has been inflicted on the country by this process is very great. Our job now is to seek to move forward, and in the crisis situation we now confront, where the second Prime Minister in a row has been brought down by a policy which has simply proved impossible to implement, the right thing for us to do is to call a halt to this national nightmare, hold another referendum and give the British people the opportunity to put a stop to Brexit.

[Lord Robathan]

Before the noble Lord sits down, I believe I am right in saying that he was elected to Oxford city council or district council at one stage. I fought many elections, as did many noble Lords. We were held accountable by our electors for what we had said. It does not matter what side one is on, one is held accountable for that which one has said. What is happening now is that what people said in the referendum campaign and since, and what was promised, is being stood on its head.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Adonis

Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I regret to say that I shall introduce a bit of controversy into the proceedings at 22.38 in the evening. It is insulting to suggest that those of us who believe that our future will be better outside the European Union—at 66, I’m all right, Jack; I think about the young, not myself—wish to curtail the rights of young people. I say to the noble Earl that I am European and I feel European; I just do not wish to be part of the European Union.

Let us look at this issue in detail rather than at what the noble Earl has said. We all agree that everybody should have opportunities to go to Europe and elsewhere. I have a niece studying in Canada, which is not, as far as I am aware, a part of the European Union. I have another niece studying in Australia, which is not, as far as I am aware, a part of the European Union. I understand that the Erasmus programme covers a great many countries that are not in the European Union, so it has absolutely nothing to do with the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. The noble Earl is only a year younger than me; I have just looked that up. Surely he remembers that people were able to study in Europe before we were in the European Union. They did, and people from Europe came and studied with me at university. There was no bar. The only bar that the noble Earl talks about is the situation he mentioned of somebody in Paris stopping somebody else from going to work in Paris. It is not up to us; it is up to them.

[Lord Adonis]

Why does the noble Lord think, then, that young people are so overwhelmingly in favour of staying in the European Union?

[Lord Robathan]

Because they are by nature conservative, of course, and that is what it was: no change, like the noble Lord.

How can we not diminish, as the amendment says, the rights of young people to study in Europe? We want them to go and study. It is up to our friends, neighbours and allies in Europe to let them come, as we will let their people come to our country—not least, it has to be said, because foreign students pay a lot of fees to our universities. I am not going to detain the House for the half hour that I probably have in me, but I think that this amendment makes those of us who do not agree with it feel pretty insulted by the suggestion that we wish to curtail the rights of our children and grandchildren.

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[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, if I may take over from where the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, left off, of course even the access we have to Australia is hugely facilitated by the fact that it is a former colony which has the same language and so many practices which are familiar to Brits, and is therefore a comparatively easy and familiar place to travel. It does not at all make the argument that somehow divorcing ourselves from the continent will enlarge opportunities for young people. However, I am a natural optimist—indeed, one could hardly be otherwise in the hours we are all investing in seeking to improve the Bill. Some good things are coming out of the Brexit process; actually, the whole thing might stop as a result of them.

The noble Baroness is completely right that one thing that is happening is the massive engagement by young people in politics and the political process. That did not take place before. We had all bought into the idea that the young were not voting or taking an interest in the future, and that politics was decided by the elderly. We had the triple lock on pensions at the same time as we were trebling tuition fees. Those two policies, more than anything else, symbolise the political centre of gravity in the last 10 years—students were expected to pay more and more of the burden of university education while the retired got a better and better deal. That is all changing now. The young are voting and are engaged as never before. They voted in the last general election in numbers which we have not seen for a generation. It is very clear to me that if we move, as I think is increasingly likely, towards a referendum on the Prime Minister’s Brexit deal, then either in that referendum or whenever a general election comes we will see very high levels of engagement by the young. I think it is now very likely that that will include votes for 16 and 17 year-olds—there is probably a majority in the House of Commons for that now. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, who is a natural conservative, will be fiercely opposed to that.

[Lord Robathan]

The noble Lord has tempted me. As it happens, I am. So is my 18 year-old daughter. She has just turned 18 and says it would have been absurd to give her a vote at 16 or 17 when she did not know anything about things.

[Lord Adonis]

If knowing anything about issues was a criteria for voting, we would need the noble Lord sitting in the judgment of Solomon over every member of the electorate to decide whether they qualified for the franchise. Being a conservative, he would probably approve of that, but we tend to have more objective criteria.

What we need in this country is to get young people more systematically engaged. A number of members of the noble Lord’s party in the House of Commons, including two former Secretaries of State for Education, are now in favour of votes for 16 and 17 year-olds, and there appears to be a majority in the House of Commons. I very much hope—and this could be the ultimate irony of Brexit—that the first time that 16 and 17 year-olds get to vote in a poll in this country is in a Brexit referendum held early next year, where they make the decisive difference in the decision this country will take to stay in the European Union. If so, the noble Earl’s great ambitions may be realised to an even greater and more positive extent than he may realise.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I should welcome the long-term political suicide of the party opposite in its failure to embrace the wishes and ambitions of young people, but the tragedy is that those young people will be most affected by its approach to Europe and to Brexit. This approach seems to be driven by some wistful look back at this country’s imperial past. It is interesting that the noble Lord referred to Australia and Canada, because that seems to be the basis of the party opposite’s approach to negotiations—we will pass up the market that is on our doorstep for the sake of some ludicrous imperialistic notion. How many times do we hear members of the party opposite refer to Australia, New Zealand and Canada in the media when push comes to shove as to where they are going to get these mystical trade agreements?

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Robathan and Lord Adonis

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan]

Of course it was put together by civil servants. I have worked with civil servants and I rate them: let me say now that I think they are good people working to the best of their ability in the service of this country. But that does not mean that they are always right. I am a bit worried that, by the time I get round to going to look at this document, it might have been flushed down the sewer.

I turn briefly to Northern Ireland. I see at least one Peer here with much greater knowledge on this than me, but when I worked in the NIO four years ago, we had a lot of issues around the smuggling of cattle and diesel across the border. There are customs officials on the Irish border, as noble Lords should know, but animals were smuggled back and forth because of the various subsidies, and diesel was smuggled, particularly from the south, because the duties were different. So let us not say that everything is perfect now, because it ain’t. I believe it is not beyond the wit of man that we can come to some decent arrangement with the Irish Government and use that border.

Lastly—

[Lord Adonis]

Will the noble Lord give way?

[Lord Robathan]

Of course; how could I resist?

[Lord Adonis]

Will the noble Lord tell us whether he agrees with those Conservatives who, in the past week, have said that it would be a good idea to end the Good Friday agreement?

[Lord Robathan]

That is slightly off the current debate, but no, I do not. I think that the Good Friday agreement has achieved a great deal. However, as in all agreements, sometimes things have to move on—not be changed necessarily, but move on. The reason for those people saying that there should be an end to the Northern Ireland agreement is the failure to get together a devolved Government; it was nothing to do with Brexit.

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[Lord Adonis]

What would the noble Lord like to move on to?

[Lord Robathan]

This is nothing to do with what we are speaking about. I am not sure whether the noble Lord, Lord Hain, was involved with the Northern Ireland agreement, but some people in this House were, and a great deal of time was taken to get it together. But as life changes, so sometimes we need to adjust or amend things. I think that that is what the noble Lord is trying to do today.

My last point is on the national interest, which has been mentioned. I find it quite embarrassing and demeaning when it is suggested that those of us who believe that our national interest is better outside the European Union are in some way unpatriotic. I say, “I’m all right Jack”: I voted for the future of my country, not for my own future. I voted in the national interest and I hope that everybody in this House can agree that the national interest is what we should all be talking about.