Scottish Government: Ultra Vires Expenditure

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for pointing that out. The Scottish diaspora is large and international, but international engagement is mostly focused on trade and is done by the Department for Business and Trade. Trade is a reserved matter, but it is also legitimate for Scottish companies to promote their activities internationally, along with the cultural aspect we have talked about. They can legitimately do that within the machinery of the UK Government, and we must allow them to continue to do so. We are just making sure that we do not have a separatist agenda being promoted to countries that I have to remind that the United Kingdom is still united.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, the Scottish Administration are embarking on courses of action that are not only clearly ultra vires, but which have grievous implications for the rest of the United Kingdom. Indeed, one of them has already been questioned and opposed by the Prime Minister, quite correctly, but they continue to do so. Has the Minister had a chance to look at this daft bottle deposit scheme? Given that all three candidates for the SNP leadership, whatever we may think of them, have criticised that scheme—indeed, Kate Forbes has described its effect on the British retail industry as “carnage”—are the Government intending to allow that to go through or are they waiting for the SNP to ditch yet another policy?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

This is one of a number of Bills coming down the track that we need to monitor quite carefully. We have already had the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, in respect of which we have pressed the Section 35 button—for the first time in 437 Bills—and now we have the bottle deposit scheme. The UK Government received notification of a formal exemption to the United Kingdom Internal Market Act on 6 March, whereas producers were given a deadline of 1 March to sign up for the scheme. That feels to me like building a house first and then applying for planning permission. What we need to do is emphasise the importance of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act. Whether you like Brexit or not, we were previously in a single market of 28 European states and we are now in a single market of the four countries of the UK. What all our businesses say to us is that they do not recognise borders, and given that 60% of Scotland’s trade is with England, we do not want different terms of trade in Scotland and in England. There are a number of things coming down the track in respect of which we have to remind ourselves that certain things are done better as one United Kingdom.

Scottish Referendum Legislation: Supreme Court Judgement

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 24th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The Scottish Government have been dominated by the Scottish National Party for eight elections in a row. They have done that on the basis of 1.3 million to 1.4 million votes, and under that they have a legitimate mandate to govern the UK—sorry, I mean within the Scottish Government. [Laughter] In the other place, we know that UK Governments can effectively govern on a mandate of 35% to 40% of the vote. No one is disputing that that is a mandate to govern, but it is not a mandate to break up a country. Where there continues to be no more than one-third of popular support to break up the UK, there is no need for us to pursue the case.

On my travels abroad, I was recently in Iceland and met the Icelandic Prime Minister. She had just had a meeting with Angus Robertson, who I think was passing himself off as the Foreign Secretary of Scotland. She said to me, rolling her eyes, “The poor people of Scotland are so oppressed, not being allowed to leave. There is obviously majority support for independence. Why won’t the UK Government allow the Scottish people to have their freedom?” I said, “Prime Minister, I believe you had your independence from Denmark in 1944.” She said yes. I said, “I believe you had a vote.” She said yes. I asked, “What was the vote in favour of independence?” She said it was 96%. I said, “The SNP currently has 37%.” She smiled and said, “Let’s talk about energy.”

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, the decision of the Supreme Court will not have come as a surprise to anyone who understood the legislation. It was a complete diversion. As the Minister said, the task in front of the Government of Scotland is surely to address the present economic crisis and its effect on the dreadful performance in education and health. If that is true in Scotland, though, it is surely also true for the British Government. Will the Minister therefore assure me that the Government have no plans to introduce wholesale constitutional changes over the next few years that would just divert us from addressing the main problems facing this country?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord, Lord Reid, another distinguished former Scottish Secretary, that there the UK Government have no plans to alter the constitutional settlement any further. Scotland is a very well-funded country. It has two Parliaments and a surplus of democracy, as the Supreme Court said yesterday.

In the meantime, it receives a record grant of £41 billion from the UK Government. We continue to support 1,700 Scottish shipbuilding jobs on the Clyde with a £4 billion settlement. The levelling-up funds of £172 million are also coming through. We are establishing two Scottish freeports and £52 million is supporting our Scottish producers in fisheries. For farmers, there is £1.6 billion and £1.5 billion has been committed to 12 city deals, which is my responsibility. Scotland is very central in the United Kingdom Government’s plan for prosperity and growth. Scotland has a very, very good deal.

Crown Court (Recording and Broadcasting) Order 2020

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Monday 8th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I confess that—unlike, I think, all the previous speakers—I am afraid I do not fall into the “noble and learned” category, since I have neither legal qualifications nor the experience of serving in court proceedings that was so evident from the previous contributions. I am not sure that my service as Home Secretary compensates for that absence or necessarily endears me to those who are entitled to be referred to as noble and learned Lords. Nevertheless, perhaps I could make a few short layman’s points about the proposals before us. If I repeat some elements of the opening contribution by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie, it is because I cannot remember any occasion when I have agreed more with him than today.

It seems obvious that increasing the transparency of our court proceedings is an important step forward for our legal system. It may not be a major step—as my noble and learned friend Lord Morris said, we are dipping our toe another little bit into the water here—but it is a step in the right direction. As several noble Lords have pointed out, it is a truism that justice should not only be done but be seen to be done. The fact is that, although theoretically our courts are accessible to the public, we all know that in practice there is severely limited access to the average person, for reasons that are self-evident. This proposal increases that accessibility and transparency, even if in a somewhat limited fashion.

Secondly, it seems likely to increase understanding of how the courts actually work. It is a system that is still largely shrouded in mystery and misunderstanding for the ordinary member of the public. Thirdly, I would like to believe that in turn this will engender more widespread confidence in our justice system—although, unlike my noble and learned friend Lord Morris, I do not think it self-evident that televised parliamentary proceedings engender increased respect or understanding, so perhaps I am expressing a rather overoptimistic view. Nevertheless, it is possible that it will do this and, if so, it is to be welcomed.

In any case, it is obvious to us all that we live in what is called the information age, in which there appears to be an unquenchable thirst for information—very often gained through media and social media, as has been pointed out, and sadly not all reliable or accurate. So it seems wise to at least allow direct access, however partial, to legal judgments, rather than only to second-hand and sometimes anonymous reportage of them.

I welcome the fact that, in this move forward, victims, staff and legal professionals will be protected from exposure under the order. However, that is not the case for judges. It would be interesting to know what assessment the Minister and Government have made of any potential adverse consequences of this and what measures, if any, they intend to put in place to mitigate those consequences.

As I mentioned, the proposal is partial. Only the judge’s sentencing remarks are to be broadcast in the Crown Court. This may include a summation of the main points of the prosecution and defence cases. However accurate, this obviously cannot be comprehensive. I wonder whether the Government could not have gone a little further; perhaps the Minister could explain that. Despite these minor reservations, I welcome and support the proposal and look forward to the Minister’s response.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Wednesday 8th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, in this House, late last year, before I was rudely interrupted by a general election, I expressed my judgment that we were in danger of sleepwalking towards the break-up of the United Kingdom. I said then that I thought the combination of Boris Johnson and a hard Brexit would fan the flames of separatism. Nothing has changed my mind on that; indeed, the situation has got worse, because now the British electorate have clearly shown that they will not support—and I believe will never support—a Labour leadership that is unpatriotic, profligate, dogmatic and untrustworthy when it comes to the economy and security and, God forbid, even our Jewish minority in this country. That has removed the prospect of an alternative to the Johnson Government, which will have an effect in Scotland as well.

Of course, we can argue that it manifestly would not be in the interests of Scotland to leave the United Kingdom. First, there is a massive deficit if it separates—greater than Italy and greater than the south of Europe. The result of that would be austerity far greater than anything we have seen in the past few years, including in the health service, education and so on. Secondly, a separate Scottish economy would have to use the pound sterling. It would be, as Ireland was in the early years, a slave economy to England. Thirdly, the idea that there would be a re-accession to the European Union by the separate state of Scotland is a pipe dream, particularly when we consider that that requires unanimity and consider the countries in Europe that have their own separate problems among the ethnic minorities—witness Spain with the Catalans and the Basques.

On any rational grounds, it is manifestly not in the interests of Scotland to separate. But here is the rub: decisions are not always made on rational grounds. They are made on the grounds of emotion, frustration, ideology and spirit. Witness the decision of the English electorate to leave Europe. I understand the cuts in services and the additional pressure on services from immigration. I also understand the growing sense of English nationalism. But that decision was not one of enlightened self-interest. I accept it, but I do not have to agree with it. It was not in the interests of the English people. We must not delude ourselves that what is sufficient for the English, even in the face of rationality, will be insufficient for the Scots. I believe that there is a great danger that that will be missed because of the majority that the Prime Minister—and we congratulate him—achieved in the last election.

There are a mere 16 words in the Queen’s Speech on the most central of all issues:

“The integrity and prosperity of the United Kingdom is of the utmost importance to my Government.”


That is it. It is of such utmost importance to the Government that it merited no further comment in the Queen’s Speech. There were a few vague references in the background briefing. It was not even mentioned in the House of Commons Library briefing. The most central aspect, which was supposed to underpin our leaving of Europe—the restoration of sovereignty to the United Kingdom and the integrity of that kingdom —is not even mentioned, other than in those 16 words in the Queen’s Speech. I say to the House—and I say it with no great joy because all my life I have argued for the retention of Scotland inside the United Kingdom because it is in its interests—that the integrity of the United Kingdom should not have been reduced to a background briefing document. It should have been at the forefront of the problems that we now face and the challenges being answered in the Queen’s Speech.

This issue will continue to fester. The Prime Minister likes to say that he has an oven-ready solution, but this dish will simmer for quite a while. It will not be done by the end of this month. While it is simmering, the very unity of the United Kingdom will increasingly be threatened, and I suspect that when it is cooked, the proof of that particular pudding will be that it is unpalatable for a lot of us who believe in the United Kingdom.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2019

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Tuesday 4th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I hesitate to intervene in a debate on Northern Ireland, but I am moved to do so by the most eloquent expressions of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames. I have personal knowledge of the extent to which the judiciary in Northern Ireland have had to accept quite severe disruption to what we would regard as ordinary family life. It is right that this House recognises that, as the noble and right reverend Lord has done. Those of us who have practised in other jurisdictions have never had the misfortune to face the stresses which necessarily arise, particularly in the prosecution of cases which raise issues of the use of explosives or things of that manner.

In his introduction of this measure, my interest was aroused by the Minister’s reference to the comparison between jury and non-jury cases in relation to convictions. Is he able to provide a similar comparison in relation to appeals? It would be interesting to know how far the question of appeal was more or less reflected in the non-jury part of the system, rather than the part covered in the usual way by jury trial.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, in considering these proposals, I cannot but recall that we are standing on the eve of an anniversary: 75 years ago so many young men—and some women—from the Province of Ulster gave their blood, their lives and, in many cases, members of their family, to preserve the rule of law and the freedoms which we cherish so greatly. It is therefore noteworthy that the Minister implied—indeed, made explicit—that the measures before us are unfortunate and distasteful but necessary. I am no longer privy to the analysis which would suggest that that is the case, but I accept the point of view of the Minister and the Government on this.

Since we recognise the extraordinary and unfortunate nature of these proposals, it is therefore essential that not only will there be a regular review of this but that there will be a deep and meaningful study between each review. In the context of the very eloquent and pertinent words of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, will the Minister tell us, in summing up, a little more of the detail of the oversight and review process and the criteria that the noble and right reverend Lord asked for by which such a judgment will be made? Ultimately, it will be made by the Government, but presumably they will give great weight to the recommendations of the independent reviewer. I think it would be helpful for everyone to know just how seriously that is taken, by understanding a little more about the process.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sure that noble Lords will join me in wishing the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, all the very best.

Recalling my first visit to Northern Ireland as a youngish shadow Minister 24 years ago, the situation was hugely different from what it is today. There were Diplock courts, of course, and juries before that had been severely intimidated by paramilitaries from both sides. Extreme sectarianism meant that that you were not guaranteed, in the proper sense of the word, a fair trial if that trial was to be held with a jury. As the Minister said, Northern Ireland is a very small place and it was even smaller, in population, in those days. We had to have these necessary evils: there had to be some system which meant that justice was fair and outside the realms of intimidation. It is also fair to say that between that time and 2007, when the Diplock courts went and the new system came in, we saw an enormous difference in Northern Ireland. The landscape changed considerably. Not least of this, of course, was that the nationalist and indeed the republican communities began to accept the criminal justice system and the police system, so that people from those communities sat on the Policing Board and involved themselves with the PSNI as well.

So there were huge changes. The Minister touched on the fact that in recent times—the last couple of years in fact—non-jury trials in Northern Ireland have become a tiny proportion of the whole. In 2016 there were only 12 non-jury trials out of 1,640. In 2017 it was nine out of 1,409. Those figures clearly indicate that there has been a huge shift in what happens in Northern Ireland. He is right, of course, to say that the security situation in Northern Ireland is still such that, at the end of the day, you cannot totally rule out a trial that would be unfair because of intimidation or extreme sectarianism. The points made by my noble friend Lord Reid and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, are very significant in terms of working out when we will actually see the complete end of non-jury trials in Northern Ireland.

Of course, in a general sense it is about security, and if the security situation improves to such an extent that they are unnecessary, then it will change by the next time we look at this legislation, in two years’ time. But we have to be a bit more scientific than that; as long as you have a system which is different from the rest of the United Kingdom—indeed, from the rest of Ireland—Parliament should be informed as to how and why it should continue, if it does. It would be helpful if the Minister could tell us how the oversight occurs and how this might eventually end.

The other issue is that, so long as there is political instability in Northern Ireland, the possibility of terrorist activity, which we have seen over the last couple of months and even in the last couple of weeks, fills the vacuum of political instability, albeit nothing like how it used to. But it is still there. In that context, I am sure the Minister can reassure the House that the talks in Northern Ireland are going well and that there is a possibility that the institutions might be brought back—bearing in mind that it is not long before the marching season and the holidays are upon us, which is always a reason why we cannot do things in Northern Ireland. The fact that there is political stability hopefully means at the end of the day that the dissident republican threat, if not evaporating, is certainly very much less and that, as a consequence, normalcy can come to Northern Ireland and all trials in Northern Ireland, where relevant, can be trials with a jury.

Scottish Government: Discussions

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 2nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I will certainly raise several of those issues. I do not think it will surprise my noble friend to know that Scottish Ministers themselves often raise these very issues. The meeting I had was focused rather more on the environment and farming; none the less, the issues he raises are important and they will be part of the ongoing debate between the Scottish and UK Governments.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, on the relationship between devolution and separation, referred to by the noble Lord, will the Minister confirm that after 17 years of devolution, when the Scottish people were asked to decide whether to separate from the United Kingdom or stay in it, they decisively decided to stay in it?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord is spot on. The Scottish people were very canny and very clever, and they voted very correctly.

Female Offender Strategy

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 31st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, there is an important shift in policy away from custody as a means of trying to resolve these issues. That is why we moved away from the proposal for five community prisons; we hope they will not be required. Instead, we have shifted the balance in the direction of community services. We will pilot such community residential services in five areas to see how they work. For that purpose, we have committed funding of up to £5 million over the next two years, but of course that will not be the end of the matter. We will address the consequences of the pilot in these five areas and see how we can take things forward from there.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

Does the Minister recall that 15 years ago, during my noble friend Lord Blunkett’s custodianship of the Home Office, the Sentencing Guidelines Council approved indeterminate sentences for more serious crimes, on condition that there should be a significant reduction at the lower end for less serious crimes, particularly for women and women with debt? Unfortunately, from the judiciary’s point of view, that has never been fully implemented. May I congratulate the Government on moving away from custodial sentences and ask them to look to this long-standing recommendation that has never been fully implemented?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I agree with the force of the noble Lord’s point. In fact, Section 152 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 clearly requires the courts to consider imposing non-custodial sentences unless otherwise justified. The Sentencing Council guidelines from 2016 reinforce this move. In addition to that, we have a judgment from the criminal Court of Appeal in the case of Petherick in 2012, which set out the criteria for sentencing in cases involving, for example, a female offender with dependent children. We have been moving in the right direction, but I accept that we have not moved far enough and we are determined to see if we can do that.

Prisoners: Imprisonment for Public Protection Sentences

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Thursday 20th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I hesitate to take issue with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown—even more so when it means also taking issue with my noble friend Lord Blunkett—but the key thing here is that this is not an extended punishment; it is a regime to protect the public. I never understood the principle referred to in the Question today, which is that for subsequent parole reviews we must show that the prisoner is clearly more dangerous than he —it is normally a man—was the last time parole was considered. If someone is a clear and present danger to the public, particularly because of terrible violent or sexual crimes, it is justifiable, after due consideration by the Parole Board, to extend that until such time as he or she is no longer a clear and present danger to the public.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I emphasise that the number of prisoners held under IPP sentences continues to decrease at an accelerating rate. However, I regret to observe that that leaves behind a serious core of sometimes incorrigible individuals, which presents real difficulties for the Parole Board when it addresses the question of release. Indeed, it is noticeable that as we have increased the rate of release of IPP prisoners, the rate of those being recalled under licence for serious breaches of it has also increased.

Brexit: Negotiations

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I will say this for the Minister: he has an enduring self-confidence at the Dispatch Box, even if it is totally unrelated to reality. Every time he speaks, I am reminded of the 19th-century general who telegraphed his headquarters saying, “Our left flank is completely lost, the right flank is being overrun and collapsing. Situation satisfactory. I shall attack”.

Despite the confidence, the reality is that after two and a half years of division, discussion and debate—sometimes acrimonious—we now have arrived at an impasse. We have an impasse in Brussels: despite everything that is being complained about, there is nothing more to be gained there. There is an impasse in the House of Commons, which we can ignore if we like, but there is gridlock there and no majority for anything, in my view. There is an impasse inside the Government and the Conservative Party, with a staunch minority wanting to get rid of the Prime Minister but not staunch enough to get 48 people to write a letter.

How did we get here? I think we got here for one simple reason. Among the many—I will not call them lies—fake news items during the referendum, there was one central self-delusion. That was that we could have all the benefits of the membership of the European Union without paying the price in obligations. Everybody in every land knows that that is a nonsense. That is why there is the expression, “You cannot have your cake and eat it”, but we were told we could. In France, I think it is having, “le beurre et le prix de beurre”. No doubt there are similar expressions in German and other languages.

It is the common sense of Europe that you cannot have all of those rights without the obligations, yet that was the delusion that was perpetrated for two and a half years. That is why we ran through this gamut of Brexits: the hard Brexit, the soft Brexit and the blindfold Brexit, and ended up with a sort of hokey-cokey Brexit, with one leg in and one leg out, shaking it furiously about to the bemusement of Brussels and the humiliation of the country throughout the rest of the world. It is not going to be changed.

How do we get out of this impasse—this gridlock? I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord King, who spoke passionately on this. There is only one way and that is to put it back to the people. If Parliament is incapable of reaching a decision, as I predict will happen over the coming months, then the people who made the decision must be allowed to revisit it. Why is this? It is not because I am a remainer who automatically assumes that they will change the decision. They may or may not, I do not know, but I know one thing: democratic decision-making—meaningful votes as they call it in the House of Commons—depends on meaningful information. We now know legal, political, social and economic and fiscal information that was not known at the time the decision was taken. In almost every other contract in Britain, from buying a washing machine to going through a divorce, a preliminary period for reflection is allowed if further information comes to light. Let us do the right thing: admit that this has been a mess and will continue to be so as long as we deprive the people of their democratic right, in the light of all the information known now, to make that decision. It should be a people’s vote and a people’s decision.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Reid of Cardowan Excerpts

Report: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 2nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

My Lords, I had a five-page speaking note when I arrived here. I have now written more than 10 pages myself. I am not sure my speaking note will do the debate justice so I will set it aside.

I will try to capture the key elements of this discussion. I will turn, as I often do in matters concerning Ireland and Northern Ireland, to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, who reminded us that we have heard the same words used many times about the Good Friday agreement, to the extent that earlier today we almost had to use a thesaurus to find a replacement for “steadfast” because we have said it so many times. As it happens, the word in the note is “unwavering”, if you are looking for a description of our support for the Good Friday agreement. But the noble and right reverend Lord is correct: we must give comfort and certainty to the people of Northern Ireland that they will not be abandoned, sacrificed, left behind, have their rights trimmed to suit a separate agenda or find themselves in a situation where what they thought they had they do not have at all. I had the pleasure of having a cup of tea yesterday with the noble and right reverend Lord and he spoke about what he called the Ballymena spade—where they call a spade a spade. We need to be clear that there can be no border down the middle of the Irish Sea. We simply cannot create a division between one part of our country and another.

Michel Barnier, the chief negotiator for the EU, has said that there needs to be some adjustment to particular rights and proprieties, that there needs to be some acceptance that we cannot have these things, and that some of the red lines themselves, as the Foreign Minister of Ireland has said, may need to be adjusted in the light of peace and prosperity. But they cannot be, that is the point. So if I was to give a message to Michel Barnier, it would be: “Ecoutez les deux communautés”—you must listen to the two communities in Northern Ireland. You cannot listen to only one of them. Both are integral to what we will be able to achieve on the island of Ireland, and any suggestion otherwise is fallacious and unhelpful. In truth, it risks creating greater uncertainty for this particular negotiation. I would advocate great caution on behalf of Michel Barnier in this regard.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

The Minister knows the respect in which I hold him and the job he is doing. I have no wish to have a border which differentiates Northern Ireland from the rest of the United Kingdom. But will he accept that the problem was not created by Michel Barnier? The promise to have complete alignment between Northern Ireland and southern Ireland was not made by Michel Barnier, it was made by the British Government. Michel Barnier is doing no more than holding the Government to the promise they made to Europe in the initial agreement, and it is not his responsibility that outside that the Government also promised the DUP—correctly, in my view—that there would be complete alignment between Britain and Northern Ireland. That is the essential problem, because if you have alignment between Britain and Northern Ireland, between Northern Ireland and southern Ireland, and between southern Ireland and Europe, you automatically have alignment between Britain and the European Union; in other words, staying inside the customs union.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I hear the noble Lord, Lord Reid. With the greatest respect, I recognise what he is saying, but the joint report did not have just one element in this regard, it had three elements. The important thing about the three elements is that each must be afforded the ultimate engagement to try to deliver a solution. If Michel Barnier has decided that the first and second are sacrificial elements and he must now focus only on the third, frankly, he is becoming part of a bigger problem.