Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Lord Ramsbotham Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Lords Chamber

I conclude these opening remarks by saying that I am grateful to those who are to speak, and I will see what they have to say, but I would like them to identify any reason why this amendment should not be made. I suggest that if the Government oppose the amendment without having any reason for doing so it would be very unfortunate and would send a wrong message to those trying to improve the criminal justice system.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, earlier in the day in this debate, many tributes were paid to Lord Newton of Braintree. I wish to be associated with all of them. Early on in the passage of this Bill, when we had the initial skirmish about access to justice, he noticed that I had tabled an amendment questioning the fact that this Bill referred to punishment rather than rehabilitation of offenders. We had a discussion about the core values of the criminal justice system. Reflecting on that, I looked at the core values that the Ministry of Defence reckons are the values of this country: liberty, fairness, transparency and the rule of law. Lord Newton and I had a very interesting discussion about that because, although that may be a direction to the military, it applies to the whole direction of the criminal justice system in this country.

I support this amendment so strongly, and hope that the Government will take the wise words of my noble and learned friend Lord Woolf seriously, because both this Government and the previous one have set great store by the need to look after victims. Restorative justice helps suitable offenders to address the harm that they have caused to their victims, so it is at the heart of what both the main political parties have been saying on this issue. My noble and learned friend mentioned the fact that 85 per cent of the victims were satisfied with the process. However, there is also another factor, which is that 78 per cent of those victims said that they would recommend the process to others. In other words, this process enjoys their support.

If one has a vastly expensive and overcrowded prison system, it only makes common sense, quite apart from economic sense, to do everything possible to reduce the numbers in it so that what is done there can be made more effective for those who need the treatment that it can provide. Restorative justice has shown that it can result in a 27 per cent decrease in reoffending rates. Therefore, it must be a cost-effective contributor to the process.

I find it extraordinary that here we are at Third Reading with those of us who support the rehabilitation revolution feeling that we have had, during this process, almost to fight the Government to get rehabilitation included as part of the purpose of the Bill. We have had to fight inclusion of the word punishment which the Government added and which would increase the expense. We are trying to reduce expense by proposing all the things that have been proven to be able to do so. Nothing that I have seen in recent years has given me more encouragement than the possibilities of restorative justice. I hope that the Government will consider very seriously the amendment proposed by my noble and learned friend.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, I have not spoken on the whole of this Bill and I only do so now because I have seen the good effects of restorative justice in Belfast, in London and at home in Somerset. It is right that it should be one of the things that are taken into consideration in sentencing, and I hope that the Government will accept the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Linklater of Butterstone]

My Lords, following our debate on Report, I return to an amendment which concerns a new clause that I propose to insert into the Bill. I feel that there is something very familiar about this exercise, as my hero, my noble and learned friend Lord Woolf, has just argued a very simple amendment with huge implications, which is what I feel I have been trying to do during debate on this matter.

I have been careful to follow the rules governing amendments at this stage of the Bill, and I am grateful for the Public Bill Office’s advice and help in drafting this amendment. It has meant focusing on one particular aspect which I did not fully explore earlier—namely, expenses—and seeking clarification on some of the Minister’s remarks.

In this redrafted amendment, I am requesting that the Lord Chancellor should publish guidance for probation trusts on how magistrates can claim reimbursement for the costs of visits to community projects and programmes. I wonder whether this could be done through Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service, as has, I understand, been under consideration lately. If there is to be no statutory liaison for the time being between the magistracy and the probation service, which is what I was seeking, it is still essential that the costs of visits should be reimbursed so that magistrates can see and believe for themselves what local community projects and programmes consist of. There is, quite simply, no better way, even if only one or two visits are made each year. Given that the role and work of magistrates in the courtroom is entirely voluntary, they really should be supported in informing themselves, through local visits, of what their sentencing options are. I cannot emphasise how important engaging with the participants is in understanding what is being delivered. We all want and need magistrates to make informed decisions if the goal of reducing reoffending is to be realised, so this sort of engagement is really important.

I should like to seek clarification from the Minister on some of the sympathetic remarks that she made on Report. She mentioned, without specifying them, meetings between probation trust boards and magistrates and pointed out that “they”—the magistrates—

“can, in fact, claim expenses from the probation trusts in attending these meetings. This is an area where the Government might assist by doing more to publicise the process if magistrates are unaware of it. We will certainly consider, as a practical approach, encouraging better liaison by publicising this”.

This comment caused an immediate debate the following day between magistrates and probation about the meetings she was referring to. They concluded that they are the meetings of probation trust boards which magistrates can attend and for which they can claim expenses. Guidance has been carefully laid down by the senior presiding judge Lord Justice Goldring on this: magistrates can attend but solely as advisers or observers—nothing to do with visiting projects or even talking about them.

The exception is when magistrates sit exclusively in the Family Proceedings Court and may become formal members, but only in a private capacity, not representing the judiciary. Furthermore, he advised that there should not be more than two members on a trust, which means a total of 70 magistrates throughout the land from the 35 trusts, which is hardly a significant number out of 29,000 magistrates. This is the only formal contract that results in any payment of expenses that they could think of. It is also quite a different process from any arrangements that magistrates might be able to make to visit programmes, which are custodial alternatives and my chief concern. If I have misunderstood, I should be grateful if my noble friend would clarify the point.

I would also mention that the National Sentencer and Probation Forum—another body—is a management forum consisting of three senior magistrates, two chiefs of probation, two judges and some civil servants. I believe that it discusses issues of performance, commissioning, et cetera, and meets quarterly. Until I had read the briefing for this debate, I did not know of this body’s existence. As a somewhat remote management group, does the Minister think that this is the appropriate body to carry forward magistrates’ engagement with their local provision of programmes, or deal with expenses?

When the Minister said that,

“it is important that magistrates see for themselves the work of probation trusts”,

it seemed that my argument had been heard in part. For that, I am truly grateful. However, she went further and said:

“We will look to see if there is more that we can do to ensure that best practice is brought to the attention of probation trusts”.

Will she also clarify that comment? I presume she meant that it is brought to the attention of magistrates, as it is the trusts which provide the programmes that magistrates may find suitable for disposal once they have seen them. Could she also say exactly what she means by “best practice”, which is at the heart of the matter if we are to improve understanding and prevent reoffending, which is seriously important? She said:

“We are also ready to work with the Magistrates’ Association and others to ensure that we have practical arrangements in hand to encourage magistrates to take part in meetings so that information can be exchanged”.

Will she clarify what sort of meetings they might be? That has the potential to be helpful. When she noted that,

“the amendment does not ensure that magistrates attend these meetings … it instead places a duty on probation trusts to provide information”.—[Official Report, 20/3/12; cols. 789-90.]

I am not clear about the nature of the meetings she has in mind. However, I am, of course, aware that probation trusts can only provide information and the option to visit, for magistrates to get information that way. They could not be expected to require magistrates to attend any meeting.

This discussion made me wonder inter alia what would happen if the existing training arrangements for Crown Court judges, called continuation courses, and which of course are compulsory, were voluntary and left to individual choice. What would happen then? Perhaps something similar in terms of dropping attendance? However, it is unimaginable that these courses should not be required for judges, and I believe that they should be for magistrates.

Given the positive assurances that my noble friend gave in her earlier responses, will she now confirm the timescales for what she suggested the Government have in mind? We all know that the road to hell is paved with good intentions—and I am quite sure that the Government have no intention of going down that road. It is important that we should all be given a clear indication of what to expect from the practical suggestions that she made.

I was grateful for the receptiveness of her responses on Report, and I hope that we will hear more, bearing in mind that not a single substantial argument against my case was raised in the House or outside it, except by the Government, who appeared to feel that my amendment was not necessary because of the obstacles that they discerned. The rest of us beg to differ—and I beg to move.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I support the intent of the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater. I will admit to some subversion. When I was Chief Inspector of Prisons, the Magistrates’ Association one day brought me a large blue book containing the guidance issued by the Prison Service for visits paid to prisons by magistrates. The association asked me whether I would support it. I read it and advised the association to put it in the bin immediately, because it advised that when magistrates went to prisons, they should accept the programmes laid on by the governor that would show them all the things in the prison that they did not need to use or see.

I advised the magistrates instead that when they went to prisons, they should say: “I want you to do three things. First, show me what would happen if I was a prisoner arriving for the first time, so that I can see the reception arrangements. Secondly, I want to discuss the arrangements that might be made for sentence planning and conduct during the time I am in prison. Thirdly, I want to see what arrangements will be made as I come up to release from prison”. Within a month, I had the Magistrates’ Association back saying, “Thank you so much. That has given us a purpose when we go on a visit”. Then, when I went into prisons, I had a response from the staff who said how refreshing it was to have magistrates coming in who were interested in what they were doing with and for prisoners.

What I like about the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, is that this process should be followed by magistrates showing an interest in what probation is trying to do in the community with and for prisoners. If there is that interactive relationship between the organisations involved, you will get a much more cost-effective and proactive organisation. Everyone will feel that they are working together rather than feeling that they are being shown something for the sake of being shown it because that is an exercise that they go through. Therefore, I entirely support the spirit of the amendment.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a persuasive case to encourage the Government to invest not money but a modest degree of guidance to assist the process of magistrates effectively learning more about sentencing options, about what happens when they institute different forms of punishment and about what happens, in particular, in relation to community sentencing. This is not a huge burden. When one thinks of some of the legislation that has passed through your Lordships’ House in recent months —a Localism Act that with its impact analysis weighed in at something over 8 pounds, as I recall, and contained 225 clauses, a health Bill that had 1,000 amendments en route to your Lordships’ House and all the rest of it—one cannot imagine that it would take very much effort on the part of those responsible to produce fairly simple guidelines on a very narrow topic, which is the subject of this amendment, that could facilitate greater awareness of what is available to magistrates in terms of sentencing options. It seems to me an overwhelmingly simple matter and one that the Government could graciously concede without any damage to the Bill. On the contrary, it would enhance the intentions of the Bill and the intentions of government policy, to which we have referred and which, no doubt, we will shortly hear again from the Minister. Along with the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, I would be at a loss to understand what could possibly persuade the Government that this is not a simple and desirable course to follow. I hope that the Minister will not feel that she is constrained to remain rigid on the position that has hitherto been adopted, which produces nothing to assist magistrates or, indeed, anybody else.