International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill

Lord Purvis of Tweed Excerpts

Friday 6th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

I must advise the Committee that if this amendment is agreed, I am not able to call Amendment 7 by reason of pre-emption.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for keeping his word this morning when he said that his subsequent contributions would be brief. I am not willing to accept his amendments because I do not think that the OBR is the appropriate body to carry out this function. The OBR has four main objectives, which are perfectly clear: to provide five-year forecasts on public finances, to use public finance forecasts to judge the Government’s performance on fiscal targets, to scrutinise costings of tax and welfare plans, and to assess the long-term sustainability of public finances. It also has an additional role: to assess the performance on the welfare cap.

The fundamental role of the OPR is for future forecasting and to have a relationship with, and report to, Parliament on that basis. However, thanks to the Independent Commission for Aid Impact—reporting to Parliament, as has been indicated previously in today’s proceedings—we now have a wealth of 40 reports, informed not least by the more recent work of the Office for National Statistics. Indeed in the latest report, which I am sure my noble friend has looked at, the ONS is quite clear that there is now a straightforward way of the ONS doing its work, informed by information from the Treasury and DfID and having clear reporting as to whether the UN target has been met. Reporting mechanisms have already been established in law. In addition, the International Development (Reporting and Transparency) Act 2006 is already on the statute book, providing, I hope, much of the satisfaction that the noble Lord seeks.

Given that explanation, and the fact that not only does the Bill offer a framework to be used but existing statutory reporting mechanisms have been in place for nearly a decade, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market]

I thank my noble friend Lord Purvis for that response. It is very helpful to have it on the record, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I support my noble friend in respect of this amendment. Our GDP is forecast to increase by more than 3%, which will mean that more than £400 million extra will have to be spent on overseas aid next year to meet the target. That is at the same time as the Chancellor saying that we are in an age of austerity. Given what the Chancellor said in his Autumn Statement and given the OBR’s projections, government spending as a proportion of GDP—or gross national income, if you prefer that terminology—will have to come down. So, as the OBR has highlighted, even health spending will come down as a proportion of GDP. If the Bill goes through unamended, the percentage of government spending that goes on overseas aid will have to keep rising rather than remain constant. Is that the intention—that the spending on overseas development aid not only should be ring-fenced and given special status but should always rise as a proportion of overall government spending? I believe that my noble friend’s amendment addresses that particular anomaly, and I look forward to hearing from the sponsor of this Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, as to whether that is indeed his intention.

I do not want to detain the House. I just say to the Front Benches that I think that it is absolutely outrageous that the business was changed and that we are dealing with these very important matters at 4 pm on a Friday afternoon, particularly since this is apparently a Private Member’s Bill. I look forward to citing these precedents in future regarding other Private Members’ Bills. If the Government think that this will in some way prevent the House from having an opportunity for all Members to be here to debate these matters, they have another thing coming. There is another stage, Report, when I hope we will be able to discuss these matters more fully. On that basis, I leave it at that in respect of this amendment.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, the whole concept of seeking to add legislative exceptions to the UK meeting its international obligations, in comparison with other levels of expenditure choices that any Government of the day may make, is not consistent either with our undertaking to meet the 0.7% target or with the Bill. That alone would be sufficient reason for me not to accept the amendment, but there are two others.

The first is that the amendment does not make clear what “health spending” means. Is it health spending in England? Is it United Kingdom health spending? Is it health and social protection? Is it health and social care? Is it current health expenditure or health capital expenditure? The second proposed new paragraph of the amendment refers to education: is it education across all nations of the United Kingdom? I need not go on, other than to highlight the deficiency of the amendment.

The second reason is that the amendment is slightly confusing. I suspect that if I had accepted previous amendments for only one report over a five-year period, this amendment could not have been moved because it calls for annual reporting, which the mover of the amendment said was not an appropriate way to go forward because there should be a single five-year report.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

Will my noble friend allow me?

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My noble friend will have an opportunity to sum up this short debate. I am sure that, in his argument, he will do the best he can to defend what is an indefensible amendment.

Our legislation needs to be robust. Therefore, I think that the amendment is deficient in comparison with the 2006 Act and its reporting mechanisms—to which no one putting forward amendments has yet referred—and with the OECD DAC’s clear areas of reporting.

Finally, I addressed the points that my noble friend Lord Forsyth made before the break in proceedings today. Just because noble friends do not agree with my propositions, it does not necessarily mean that I have not answered the questions. Nevertheless, with what I hope is clarification regarding the deficiencies of the amendment and why I cannot accept it, in that spirit, I hope the mover will withdraw it.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord has been asked two specific questions. One was asked by my noble friend, which was whether the Bill is a paper tiger and there is no sanction on any Secretary of State if they do not meet the target, other than that they must produce a report explaining why. With respect to the noble Lord, I do not think he answered it. All he has to say is, “Yes, that’s right”.

The second question I put to him was: is he really content to have the effect of this Bill in an era where public expenditure is being restrained? We hope that the economy will start to grow; the effect of the Bill will be that spending on development aid will rise as a proportion of overall government expenditure, unlike any other programme.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

In maintaining our target of 0.7% of GNI, it is perfectly clear what profile GNI will have with the profile of expenditure. That is part of our undertaking. That is not being introduced by the Bill. This is where my difficulty is with my noble friend. The Bill is not introducing that concept; the United Kingdom has adopted that concept over many years and Governments, including the Government of which he was a member. As referred to earlier, it is regrettably the case that while my noble friend was Chancellor of the Exchequer the United Kingdom was meeting only 0.26%, as my noble friend Lady Chalker indicated at Second Reading. Indeed, in the Government that my noble friends were part of, the United Kingdom was the sixth largest contributor to aid. We are now the second largest. I consider that something that the United Kingdom should be proud of, but maybe the noble Lords are in sincere disagreement on that.

I turn to the second aspect of the legislative basis. I said to my noble friend that the legislative basis is clear on the duties on Ministers in the Bill and the duty of accountability that Ministers have to Parliament. That is perfectly consistent with, for example, the legislation that my noble friend supported—the Budget Responsibility and National Audit Act 2011. That established the Charter for Budget Responsibility and placed duties on Ministers to report to Parliament, with Parliament holding them to account and the electorate deciding whether Parliament was doing its job. The Bill does not deviate from that approach; it is consistent with parliamentary accountability and ministerial duties.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Again, can the noble Lord answer the question that I asked him? Is he content to have a situation as a consequence of the Bill where the proportion of government expenditure that goes on overseas aid rises while it does not rise for other programmes? That would be the effect of what he is proposing.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

I referred to the very useful Library paper which shows that the UK’s contribution to development aid since the 1980s has gone up in absolute terms and, of course, as a proportion of overall expenditure. That is clear and it is something of which I, as a Liberal Democrat, am proud. It means that we have met our international obligations that were set many years ago, and we can now see a more reliable and predictable trend for that expenditure going forward. I take delight in answering my noble friend’s question because it is something that I am proud of.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, that most recent exchange between my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Purvis has been quite illuminating. I want to mention two points that came up in the discussion but, before I do so, I want to go back to the earlier remarks of my noble friend Lord Purvis. He was completely muddled and I would like to straighten him out. He said that this amendment was inconsistent with the amendment that sought to look at aid expenditure over a five-year period in connection with the target. Even if you look at it over five years, in this country, as in most countries, there is an annual Budget, an annual Autumn Statement, figures for public expenditure and figures for taxation, and they are all, and will continue to be, produced annually, even if the amendment relating to the five-year period, which was withdrawn, had been passed. So that does not change anything at all and there is no conflict whatever.

I now turn to the two matters that my noble friend Lord Forsyth and I raised, and my first point may be what lies, to some extent, behind the question put by my noble friend Lord Forsyth. At the moment, expenditure on aid is running at more than £11 billion a year. That is not far short of what we spend on the police. The police are not a protected programme and therefore, inevitably, given the overall policy to curb public expenditure, spending on the police will go down and spending on aid will go up. It will not be long before we are spending more on aid than on the police. No doubt my noble friend Lord Purvis will be, to use his own words, very proud of that, but that cannot go on for ever. You cannot have this ratchet effect year in, year out. We have the danger of terrorism in our midst and the police have all their other duties of catching and prosecuting criminals. We cannot have public expenditure on aid going up and up indefinitely, irrespective of the needs of other heads of expenditure. The technicalities of what education spending and health spending mean do not wash; they are just nitpicking. There is a fundamental point here that needs to be addressed.

However, on the other point that was raised, I am less dissatisfied because the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, has admitted that if a future Government—we know where the present Government stand—take seriously the problems of spending on the police, the health service and education, and take the view that they cannot properly continue to increase aid spending, the term “legally binding” does not amount to a row of beans because all they have to do is present a statement to Parliament explaining why they are not increasing aid spending and are falling short of the 0.7% target. That is a great relief, and it will be a great relief to the people of this country. The commitment is a bit of a paper tiger. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Northover]

What I am saying—I hope that it is clear—is that DfID needs to decide how it is going to spend its money. It was always known from 2010 what the trajectory was of that DfID budget. I think that the noble Lord was a member of the Economic Affairs Committee that reported in 2012 and took its evidence in 2011. At that point, that escalation had not occurred and the committee rightly expressed concern about that. However, all the reports thereafter have looked very carefully at whether that escalation was effective and value for money. It has been found to be a rigorous process.

We are now at 0.7%. We are not into escalation, but these multilateral organisations, which were stress-tested through the multilateral aid review in 2010-11, were judged to be value for money for the reasons that I have given. Bilateral programmes can be very limited in a very limited number of countries. What Gavi can do in sourcing vaccines, investing in research and so on and in involvement in many different countries can be much more effective. That is why DfID is a strong supporter of such organisations.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Astor for his amendment, for being consistent with the points he raised at Second Reading and for the manner in which he did it. I am most grateful for that, and I will attempt very briefly to address his points. In so doing, I wish to put on record my appreciation for the points that the Minister made. There are two aspects to this: forward expenditure, which is part of wider plans in existence, and the possibility of other factors which mean that, outwith the scope of the responsibility of DfID, the international target would not have been met. I suspect that that gets to the core of my noble friend’s amendment.

On the first point, paragraph 15 of the NAO report has been cited. I am sure it was an oversight that paragraph 16 was not referred to. That states:

“Promissory notes accounted for 19% of the Department’s ODA in 2013, similar to the level in 2012”.

Given the NAO’s findings, I do not think that this is an issue that needs to take up much more of our time in Committee.

Let me address the point made by my noble friend. The question is whether elements of this Bill complement the International Development (Reporting and Transparency) Act 2006 and the existing mechanisms through which DfID, the Treasury and the ONS report on information to do with programme profiling, budget decisions and external factors and provide sufficient information to allow Parliament to understand why a target has not been met. With the mechanisms that we already have in place—including, importantly, Section 6 of the International Development (Reporting and Transparency) Act 2006 on the methods for transparency, where there is provision to specify future allocations of aid, in addition to all the other reporting mechanisms, the work of the Office for National Statistics and the external peer review by the OECD—I believe there is sufficient work within the programme on reporting, accountability and transparency to satisfy my noble friend.

My noble friend Lord Howell made a point about potential external factors and gave an interesting reason. The Minister responded very clearly with regard to that specific case. The Bill affords freedom for external impacts to be reported and then, through Parliament, to be scrutinised fully and for Parliament to determine the justification. On that basis, I respectfully ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

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[Baroness Northover]

Noble Lords can be totally reassured that DfID will continue to be fully scrutinised. My noble friend, who is the owner of the Bill, is about to explain that in detail.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, as I hope that the House will appreciate, the sponsors of the Bill are responsible for drafting. I know that my noble friends will have read the report of both Committee and Report in another place, where those points were raised and responded to. My right honourable friend Michael Moore was perfectly clear in another place when he said that when he first proposed the Bill and consulted on it, it was an open, public consultation. At that time, he said in another place:

“I said on Second Reading that I thought the independent international development office proposed to fulfil the important function set out in the Bill was a good model, but that I was open to suggestions as to how it might be improved”.—[Official Report, Commons, International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill Committee, 11/11/14; col. 35.]

Far from it being either mysteriously changed or rushed, there was proper parliamentary scrutiny in another place at Second Reading, in Committee and on Report, where the Government did not accept the amendments proposed by Mr Nuttall, et cetera, because it was felt that there was a more effective way to answer the valid points that my noble friend Lord MacGregor has cited. Let me turn to them.

What is the fundamental question that the Bill is asking? In addition to the 2006 legislation, is there for the first time independent evaluation of the value for money of United Kingdom ODA? The Bill will afford that. It goes further. It states that there is a duty on the Government to come to Parliament to explain annually how that independent evaluation is being carried out. That answers the second question raised: not only is there provision for independent evaluation but Parliament will be receiving from government, on an annual basis, how that independent evaluation is carried out. Subsection (2) is a considerable safeguard to Parliament for effective scrutiny of the independent evaluation.

This means that we come to whether a new body is created or ICAI is put on a statutory footing. When we look at all the consideration of how this independent evaluation can be carried out, not necessarily but potentially by one body and informed by the National Audit Office or other bodies, I think it is right that the Bill simply states that the principle for that evaluation will be carried out with flexibility as to what body or bodies will carry out that function. It is important that Parliament should have the ability to scrutinise properly that independent evaluation and how it is carried out. As the sponsor in this place, I cannot accept the amendment but I understand why my noble friend spoke to it. I believe that the elements in the Bill afford that protection.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords—

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

It has been a pleasure to allow my noble friend to intervene on me today, so I would be churlish to prevent that pleasure.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord for answering the question which the Minister did not answer in respect of Clause 5(2). He is saying that the Secretary of State will produce an annual report on how he or she is being evaluated. That is not independent scrutiny and reporting. What is needed is an independent body which looks at the department and reports to Parliament, not to the Secretary of State. It is very helpful that the noble Lord should have answered this point because he is saying that Clause 5 effectively says, “The Secretary of State will decide who is going to hold him or her accountable for the programme of overseas development aid, then the Secretary of State will on an annual basis report to Parliament on how well the people reporting on him are doing”. That is a nonsense.

[Baroness Northover]

Do noble Lords have the Bill here? Perhaps my noble friend might bear in mind that the Secretary of State already has to make an annual report to Parliament, under previous legislation. Clause 5(1) says that:

“The Secretary of State must make arrangements for … independent evaluation”,

which is what we have been talking about and is indeed extremely important. Clause 5(2) says that:

“The Secretary of State must include in each annual report”—

the annual report that the Secretary of State is giving to Parliament—

“a statement as to how he or she has complied with the duty under subsection (1)”;

in other words, that the independent scrutiny of ODA has been carried out and that it is 0.7%. I think that the noble Lord is missing the point about the annual report, which is already in legislation and which the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords—

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, I will of course allow my noble friend to intervene on my noble friend who intervened on my noble friend intervening on me.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am most grateful to the Minister. She says that the Secretary of State has to make an annual report, which is correct, and that the annual report will enable people to look at how well they are complying with the 0.7% and the rest.

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[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, I wonder if I may draw this to a conclusion from my point of view before my noble friend sums up his amendments, without going down the sidetrack that some have gone down. As the Minister has indicated, Section 1(1) of the International Development (Reporting and Transparency) Act 2006 states:

“It shall be the duty of the Secretary of State to lay before each House of Parliament each year a report about international aid pursuant to the provisions of this Act”.

It is only Section 3 of that Act that is subsequently repealed by the measure before the House, and indeed that annual report will include a statement about how the arrangements for the independent evaluation of the extent to which ODA provided by the UK represents value for money. That is perfectly clear.

I am satisfied that the arrangements that need to be carried out to provide for independent evaluation should be carried out with the duties provided for under this legislation. It provides flexibility so that it is not constrained with regard to the body that carries that out. It is perfectly clear why that is the position of my right honourable friend Michael Moore, and I hope that that satisfies my noble friend.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

Before my noble friend sits down—

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

Not this noble friend; I meant my noble friend Lord MacGregor.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

Yes. I think that we have had sufficient discussion for the day about Clause 5(2), but we have still not had a satisfactory answer about the rather important Clause 5(1), which says:

“The Secretary of State must make arrangements for the independent evaluation of the extent to which ODA provided by the United Kingdom represents value for money in relation to the purposes for which it is provided”.

What the arrangements are should be and must be in the Bill. They were originally, because there was a schedule setting up a new body to do it. The schedule was taken out, and there is now a vacuum. We are not told in the Bill what these arrangements are, which body will ensure and evaluate the extent to which the ODA provided gives value for money, and so on.

My noble friend suggested in this amendment, “Why not use the ICAI and put it on a statutory basis?”, and that can be done. That seems very sensible, and I am rather suspicious about the rejection of this amendment, because it suggests that they are trying to weasel out of any effective independent evaluation. If they are not, what are the arrangements for the evaluation? Why not the ICAI, or why not restore the other body that was there originally? That must be in the Bill. I suspect, having heard the noble Lord’s obduracy on this point, that we will have to come to this again on Report. However, it is a very real point. No satisfactory answer of any kind has been given, either by the Minister or by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis.

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[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I reassure my noble friends in relation to ICAI that it already reports to Parliament via the International Development Select Committee in the House of Commons. The International Development Committee scrutinises ICAI’s work; it holds a public hearing every year to consider ICAI’s annual report, and a special sub-committee has been set up to take evidence after the publication of each ICAI report. The committee also approves ICAI’s work plan. Noble Lords may also be aware—and this would have happened after my noble friend’s Select Committee reported—that a triennial review of ICAI was published in December 2013 and a further review is scheduled for 2016. Triennial reviews are designed to consider whether public bodies such as ICAI are meeting good standards of corporate governance, and so on, and whether they are still needed.

In addition to the above, the National Audit Office and International Development Committee can, of course, already review the independence, efficiency and effectiveness of ICAI if they wish to do so, and also provide regular assessments of value for money within DfID to the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons. I hear what my noble friend says about his previous concern being somewhat ameliorated, and I hope that this will give him further reassurance.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, I have nothing to add from the point of view of the sponsors of the Bill to the reassurances that the Minister has provided. They are satisfactory, and I request that my noble friend withdraw his amendment.

[Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market]

I am grateful for that response, and it encourages me that the discussion that we had on the previous amendment on the role that we were giving to the independent commission is proper and correct, and that we need not have fears on that score. I am grateful to my noble friend for that answer, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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I very much hope that even at this late stage it is not impossible for the proposer or the Minister to concede that there might be some wisdom in the proposal being put forward. The proposed amendment leaves the 0.7% target untouched; it is concerned only to improve the effectiveness and quality of the aid programme in the new circumstances created by the introduction of the new legally enforceable target. I hope that the Minister will not suggest that the existing arrangements are sufficient. If she were to suggest that, she would imply that the new legally enforceable target has no practical impact. If the existing arrangements suffice, why are we going down the route of a legally enforceable target? I cannot believe that she would argue that the legally enforceable target has no effect on the existing arrangements.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. With regard to this specific amendment, could he inform the House which of the annual reports that have been laid before Parliament under the 2006 Act, and which cover aid effectiveness, policy effectiveness and transparency, does he feel are deficient and have not provided this information?

[Lord Tugendhat]

If I felt it was sufficient, I would not be suggesting the three propositions put down in the amendment. I think that each is valid.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

Is the noble Lord saying that the reports, or the information in them, have been insufficient? Could he perhaps give us the years for the reports that he is referring to?

[Lord Tugendhat]

I am saying that the Secretary of State must include in each report an explanation of how the implementation of the 0.7% target has influenced the following—and then the words in the amendment. I am looking to the future. I think that that is perfectly clear. In the past we did not have a legally enforceable target and in the future we will.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My noble friend has just told the House that the reports so far, which have already been provided under the 2006 Act, have been insufficient. For which years were those reports? If he has not read them and if he is not aware of them, that is a problem with the information that he is providing to the House.

[Lord Tugendhat]

I am talking only about the future. The amendment refers quite explicitly to the future. I hope I am repeating myself correctly; I said that if it was suggested that the present arrangements are sufficient, then that would imply that the introduction of the new legally enforceable target made no difference. That is what I was saying. I am not talking about whether the report was insufficient in the past. We did not have a legally enforceable target in the past but we are going to in future. That is why I suggested that new arrangements would be required. So we are looking to the future, not the past, and I should be very interested to know why the proposer and the Minister—if indeed they are not going to accept the amendment—think that new arrangements should not be required in the future.

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[Baroness Northover]

I say to my noble friend Lord Tugendhat that I never expected anything other than full scrutiny of the Bill in this House. He can be assured that I made that extremely clear within my department, as I have done on other Bills in other departments in other instances.

The key issue here is that the Bill is about ensuring that the UK continues to meet its commitment on aid, which it has finally met. I am incredibly heartened by the cross-party agreement on this. As we heard at Second Reading, we know how much this is needed. However, underlying this debate is a sense that this is not the case and that there may not, therefore, be value for money. I emphasise that the Government have a clear commitment to ensuring value for money. I know that the Economic Affairs Committee in 2012 was concerned about the planned scale-up to meet the target because there was a significant increase in the budget. Clearly, the committee was right to raise that issue. However, we have now completed the scale-up to 0.7% and a number of external bodies have looked at this, including the December 2014 DAC external peer review, which said of our scale-up that our,

“Well planned … implementation was carefully monitored … and at the same time, strong efforts were made to avoid compromising the quality of the ODA programme, and progress towards results was regularly reviewed”.

In addition, we have strengthened the evidence base and procedures for project investment decisions. All proposals must have a business case, with proposals for projects of £40 million and above being subject to review through the department’s quality assurance unit. We have invested in strengthening programme management processes, capability and systems to transform the way in which we deliver programmes so that we are better able to tackle the underlying causes of poverty and conflict. We have introduced tighter spending controls. The threshold for ministerial approval of project business cases was reduced from £40 million to £5 million, with Ministers also approving supplier contracts worth more than £1 million. We have increased the use of payment by results. Under this approach, the department makes payments only after pre-agreed results are achieved, rather than up front. We have launched a development tracker online tool to provide more public information on UK development investment in projects. The department has also been commended for its openness. We have also talked in other amendments about the external scrutiny that occurs. I therefore hope that noble Lords are reassured about the level of scrutiny and what we have put in place within DfID.

There may be, at heart, disagreement here. Does the world still need this assistance or not? In terms of value for money, the assumption that because the budget has increased it would therefore be poor value for money needs to be challenged. As to the comments of my noble friend Lord Lawson, I am happy to engage on climate change, but perhaps not now.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to respond to the points that have been made. I hope that my noble friend considers that there has been proper consideration of all these issues in Parliament and that he does not feel that some Members of this House have a greater right than others to take part in any of the proceedings—whether because of age, experience or anything else.

The Bill repeals only one section of the 2006 Act, which is why I was exploring the existing duty within that Act on Ministers to report. The section that would be repealed requires,

“each annual report to include an assessment of the year in which the 0.7% target is expected to be met”.

However, as I have said on a number of occasions today, because this Bill maintains the position that the target will be met, it will, in addition to the provisions in the 2006 Act, be the mechanism for reporting going forward. Therefore, is it appropriate to include the noble Lord’s amendment in the Bill, or are the provisions in the 2006 Act and in this Bill the correct mechanisms for reporting?

I believe that the mechanisms in the Bill, in addition to those already on the statute book, are appropriate and that the criteria on effectiveness, potential corruption, whether the ODA budget is meeting the UN development goals and all the undertakings that we have made to international organisations—and, indeed, on value for money—are already covered by the 2006 Act and the independent evaluation that will be provided in the relevant reports. On that basis, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, on a number of occasions today I have referred noble Lords to the Second Reading debate. In that debate I said that if this Bill passes, it will be because it is based on an entrenched and wide consensus across the three main political parties, external groups and the public, and it will become an enduring law. If a future Parliament chooses to repeal this legislation it will also be repealing that high degree of consensus. It would also have to be accountable to the electorate, and to some extent, constitutionally, that would be proper.

Therefore I end, with regret, by having to disappoint my noble friend Lord Forsyth. At the end of a long day, I record my appreciation for noble Lords whose support for the legislation Hansard will not be able to reflect—including the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, on the Opposition Benches, and my noble friend Lady Hodgson and other noble Lords on the Conservative Benches. Hansard does not always reflect the level of support or accurately reflect the opinions of Members in Committee. I hope I have corrected that. In that spirit, I hope that, after sunset, my noble friend will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, the hour is late so I shall be brief. My noble friend Lord Purvis made a point about this being agreed by all three political parties. That is true. That makes me worry. In my long experience, in most cases—not all, but most—when all three parties agree on something, they are wrong. There is a very good reason why that should be so. It means that the issue has not been properly examined. If there is not a proper political argument back and forth, there is not adequate examination. So I am afraid that the statement he made does not reassure me in the slightest.

As for the amendment before us, although my noble friend Lord Howell said that he disagreed with my noble friend Lord Forsyth, I think there was no conflict; I certainly agree with both of them. As far as my noble friend Lord Forsyth is concerned, I believe that we need to look at this new, greatly expanded aid programme and how it is working out. One of the problems, which has been alluded to briefly, is that the focus of aid is changing and more and more is going to fragile states and to what are often described as failed states. In those states the amount of corruption is absolutely appalling and there is nothing that DfID can do to eliminate that corruption, although it would like to. So one of the things that we will need to examine if there is a sunset clause and we want to renew this is whether we have, not deliberately, produced a machine that has significantly increased the amount of corruption, which is one of the great evils in these countries and, indeed, is one of the great reasons why they cannot lift their people out of poverty in the way that, happily, so many countries in the emerging world have done over the past few years. But there are others that have not, and that is where we are focusing our aid.

One of the most important things is the separation of economic and political power. This is fundamental to development. If people want to enrich themselves they go into the economic sphere; or they go, for different motives, into public service and the political sphere. If you do not have this separation and people go into politics in order to enrich themselves, which happens in a large number of countries, that is where it is so damaging and where aid will not help. That is why it needs to be reviewed at the end of five years.

Another valid point made by my noble friend Lord Forsyth is that the Minister said explicitly that one of the main purposes of the Bill was to set an example to the rest of the world. Fine. Actually, I do not think that is fine; it is not a proper reason for legislation. But leaving that aside, if that is the reason, after five years we can see whether the United States, Germany, France and Italy have followed suit. I am willing to have a modest wager with the Minister that in five years’ time—if I am still alive in five years’ time, which is unlikely—they will not have followed suit. Our efforts to get other countries to follow our example will prove to have failed, and that is another reason why Parliament should have positively to re-enact this legislation, if it wants to do so.

The final and important point made by my noble friend Lord Howell is that the world has changed—a point that I also made in an earlier amendment—and that there are better ways of trying to creating a better world than dishing out development aid. If that is so and we find that other countries are doing a better job by other means—we do not have time to discuss them now, but my noble friend has sketched them—that is another reason why Parliament should be required to take stock at the end of five years rather than ploughing on with this.

This is not chickenfeed: we are already spending well over £11 billion a year on aid. As a result of this Bill, this amount is scheduled to go on rising inexorably, year in, year out, if the economy is growing. We all hope that the economy will grow—even my noble friend the Minister wishes to see the economy grow—and, if it does, this will get bigger and bigger, year in, year out. However, if this is not the best way to achieve a better world in which there is less poverty and more economic development, we certainly do not want to continue with it.

If this Bill becomes an Act, its first five years will be a test bed. We want a provision that Parliament is obliged to address this issue anew at the end of five years. I strongly support my noble friend’s amendment.