International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill

Lord Lawson of Blaby Excerpts

Friday 6th February 2015 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

8: After Clause 1, insert the following new Clause—
“Exceptions
The provisions of this Act will cease to apply for the following year if—(a) spending on ODA as a percentage of gross national income in any year is above one-eleventh of spending on health,(b) spending on ODA as a percentage of gross national income in any year is above one-eighth of spending on education, (c) any shortfall in meeting the 0.7% target could only be met by increasing spending on ODA in any one year by more than 5% in real terms, or(d) the United Kingdom Government is running a budget deficit that is higher than 5% of gross domestic product.”

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, this amendment is also in the name of my noble friends Lord McGregor and Lord Tugendhat, as well as the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, who, as we have heard, unfortunately is unable to be with us today.

A number of the earlier amendments were concerned, as I should think all helpful amendments are in practice, to create a degree of flexibility, which is necessary for good government and in particular for the control of public expenditure. I regret that even though it is customary for this House to rise at 3 pm on a Friday, it is now 4 pm and we are still going. The Bill does not seek emergency powers or anything like that; it should have been tabled for the very first Session of this Parliament, as I think was promised, but we have had to wait until now. That is highly undesirable and somewhat disreputable conduct along the line.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

In response to that point, it is important for noble Lords and for the noble Lord himself to note that the Bill was carried on a Friday, shortly before a general election, with Members of all Houses turning up in large numbers. The Conservative Members of Parliament in the other House voted 58 votes to six; Labour Members 70 to zero; and Liberal Democrats 30 to zero. It is clearly the will of the elected Chamber in the other place, so it is entirely appropriate that this House helps to expedite and not block the Bill.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

It is our job to do our duty. That argument could have been used by the noble Lord and the noble Lord’s office opposite when the European Union referendum Bill came to this place. I did not hear any of them saying that we should accept it because it had gone through by a large majority in the other place. Therefore that disposes of the noble Lord’s objection.

I will say a little more about what this amendment is about. Earlier amendments have been designed to create an area of flexibility which is necessary for good government and for the proper control of public expenditure and conduct of public expenditure, and as I was about to say before I was interrupted, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, who has great expertise in these matters, was very strong on the need for flexibility. This has nothing to do with aid in particular but is necessary for public expenditure overall.

This amendment points to particular forms of flexibility. For example, paragraphs (a) and (b) of this proposed new clause relate spending on ODA to the amount of spending on health and education respectively. People in this country feel very keenly about spending on health, and the party opposite speaks almost of nothing else at present. The people of this country feel very keenly about spending on education. There needs to be some comparison of priorities—some connection between the spending on ODA and on other departments. Here we single out health and education, but of course the question of spending on defence was already raised earlier in our debate. There is a 2% NATO target, which of course is not legally binding but is an aspiration; this goes much further. At a time when there is great danger to this country and the world has become a much more dangerous place, that also should be compared with it. However, I will confine myself to spending on health and on education.

There are two other paragraphs in the proposed new clause. The third paragraph says that if the,

“target could only be met by increasing spending on ODA in any one year by more than 5% in real terms … the target should be set aside”.

It is a massive amount, and it is almost certain that we would not get value for money if there were a huge increase in spending in any one year. That would get the Secretary of State and the Government of the day off the hook.

The fourth paragraph to give the Government the flexibility to get off the hook is if there is a budget deficit of above,

“5% of gross domestic product”.

We all know that the budget deficit is too high. All parties are agreed that it has to come down. If, for whatever reason, it is not coming down satisfactorily, that is a serious business, and it should be a reason why in that particular year the Government are not on the hook of the 0.7% aid target.

On the status of the target, questions were put which were not really answered by the Minister, nor by my noble friend behind me who proposed the Bill in this place to questions asked by my noble friend Lord Forsyth about the precise nature of the legally binding commitment. Legally binding sounds, to me, like legally binding. It sounds similar to the Climate Change Act, where there are legally binding targets for the reduction of carbon dioxide emissions. Apparently, it is legally binding—and, no doubt, my noble friends Lady Northover and Lord Purvis will answer specifically on this point. When my noble friend Lord Forsyth raised it, it was not adequately answered, but scrutiny of the Bill seems to make it the case that it is not really legally binding at all. All the Government are bound to do is to lay a report to Parliament saying why the target has been missed.

I hope that this proposed new clause will be accepted, as it is very reasonable and designed to be helpful. I hope, in addition to that, the question of the nature of whether the legislation is legally binding can be clarified. I beg to move.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I support my noble friend in respect of this amendment. Our GDP is forecast to increase by more than 3%, which will mean that more than £400 million extra will have to be spent on overseas aid next year to meet the target. That is at the same time as the Chancellor saying that we are in an age of austerity. Given what the Chancellor said in his Autumn Statement and given the OBR’s projections, government spending as a proportion of GDP—or gross national income, if you prefer that terminology—will have to come down. So, as the OBR has highlighted, even health spending will come down as a proportion of GDP. If the Bill goes through unamended, the percentage of government spending that goes on overseas aid will have to keep rising rather than remain constant. Is that the intention—that the spending on overseas development aid not only should be ring-fenced and given special status but should always rise as a proportion of overall government spending? I believe that my noble friend’s amendment addresses that particular anomaly, and I look forward to hearing from the sponsor of this Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, as to whether that is indeed his intention.

I do not want to detain the House. I just say to the Front Benches that I think that it is absolutely outrageous that the business was changed and that we are dealing with these very important matters at 4 pm on a Friday afternoon, particularly since this is apparently a Private Member’s Bill. I look forward to citing these precedents in future regarding other Private Members’ Bills. If the Government think that this will in some way prevent the House from having an opportunity for all Members to be here to debate these matters, they have another thing coming. There is another stage, Report, when I hope we will be able to discuss these matters more fully. On that basis, I leave it at that in respect of this amendment.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, the whole concept of seeking to add legislative exceptions to the UK meeting its international obligations, in comparison with other levels of expenditure choices that any Government of the day may make, is not consistent either with our undertaking to meet the 0.7% target or with the Bill. That alone would be sufficient reason for me not to accept the amendment, but there are two others.

The first is that the amendment does not make clear what “health spending” means. Is it health spending in England? Is it United Kingdom health spending? Is it health and social protection? Is it health and social care? Is it current health expenditure or health capital expenditure? The second proposed new paragraph of the amendment refers to education: is it education across all nations of the United Kingdom? I need not go on, other than to highlight the deficiency of the amendment.

The second reason is that the amendment is slightly confusing. I suspect that if I had accepted previous amendments for only one report over a five-year period, this amendment could not have been moved because it calls for annual reporting, which the mover of the amendment said was not an appropriate way to go forward because there should be a single five-year report.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

Will my noble friend allow me?

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My noble friend will have an opportunity to sum up this short debate. I am sure that, in his argument, he will do the best he can to defend what is an indefensible amendment.

Our legislation needs to be robust. Therefore, I think that the amendment is deficient in comparison with the 2006 Act and its reporting mechanisms—to which no one putting forward amendments has yet referred—and with the OECD DAC’s clear areas of reporting.

Finally, I addressed the points that my noble friend Lord Forsyth made before the break in proceedings today. Just because noble friends do not agree with my propositions, it does not necessarily mean that I have not answered the questions. Nevertheless, with what I hope is clarification regarding the deficiencies of the amendment and why I cannot accept it, in that spirit, I hope the mover will withdraw it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

I referred to the very useful Library paper which shows that the UK’s contribution to development aid since the 1980s has gone up in absolute terms and, of course, as a proportion of overall expenditure. That is clear and it is something of which I, as a Liberal Democrat, am proud. It means that we have met our international obligations that were set many years ago, and we can now see a more reliable and predictable trend for that expenditure going forward. I take delight in answering my noble friend’s question because it is something that I am proud of.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, that most recent exchange between my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Purvis has been quite illuminating. I want to mention two points that came up in the discussion but, before I do so, I want to go back to the earlier remarks of my noble friend Lord Purvis. He was completely muddled and I would like to straighten him out. He said that this amendment was inconsistent with the amendment that sought to look at aid expenditure over a five-year period in connection with the target. Even if you look at it over five years, in this country, as in most countries, there is an annual Budget, an annual Autumn Statement, figures for public expenditure and figures for taxation, and they are all, and will continue to be, produced annually, even if the amendment relating to the five-year period, which was withdrawn, had been passed. So that does not change anything at all and there is no conflict whatever.

I now turn to the two matters that my noble friend Lord Forsyth and I raised, and my first point may be what lies, to some extent, behind the question put by my noble friend Lord Forsyth. At the moment, expenditure on aid is running at more than £11 billion a year. That is not far short of what we spend on the police. The police are not a protected programme and therefore, inevitably, given the overall policy to curb public expenditure, spending on the police will go down and spending on aid will go up. It will not be long before we are spending more on aid than on the police. No doubt my noble friend Lord Purvis will be, to use his own words, very proud of that, but that cannot go on for ever. You cannot have this ratchet effect year in, year out. We have the danger of terrorism in our midst and the police have all their other duties of catching and prosecuting criminals. We cannot have public expenditure on aid going up and up indefinitely, irrespective of the needs of other heads of expenditure. The technicalities of what education spending and health spending mean do not wash; they are just nitpicking. There is a fundamental point here that needs to be addressed.

However, on the other point that was raised, I am less dissatisfied because the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, has admitted that if a future Government—we know where the present Government stand—take seriously the problems of spending on the police, the health service and education, and take the view that they cannot properly continue to increase aid spending, the term “legally binding” does not amount to a row of beans because all they have to do is present a statement to Parliament explaining why they are not increasing aid spending and are falling short of the 0.7% target. That is a great relief, and it will be a great relief to the people of this country. The commitment is a bit of a paper tiger. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 8 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord MacGregor. There should be no difficulty whatever in the Government, and indeed the promoter of the Bill, accepting this amendment. The issue relates to Clause 5, which is headed:

“Independent evaluation of official development assistance”.

When the Bill was first introduced in the other place, the Government and Mr Michael Moore, the promoter in the other place, were absolutely clear that how this independent evaluation was to be done and by whom needed to be specified. As I am sure noble Lords are well aware, there was a three-page schedule headed:

“The Independent International Development Office”.

The schedule would have set up that office specifically for this purpose, considering that it is so important. However, mysteriously, or at least semi-mysteriously, when the Bill emerged from its Committee stage the promoters of the Bill and the Minister of State from DfID moved an amendment to delete this schedule, which had been an integral part of the Bill.

Now all the Bill says is:

“The Secretary of State must make arrangements for the independent evaluation of the extent to which ODA provided by the United Kingdom represents value for money in relation to the purposes for which it is provided”,

but it does not say how that should be done. As I say, they had decided that it should be done by this new body, which was incorporated in the form of a three-page schedule to the Bill.

When explaining why that schedule was to be removed, the Minister of State gave two reasons. The first was that there was no need to create a new body. The other was that the schedule would provide many opportunities for amendments that might have delayed the passage of the Bill. That second reason is probably the real reason, and it is completely discreditable. There is a point to the first reason: there is no need to create a new body because there is an existing one that can do the job, and that is the Independent Commission for Aid Impact. That is why our amendment says that the independent commission should do the job. At the moment, however, the whole thing has been left in limbo. No one is doing it, which leaves it up to DfID to do it itself, and in effect it is saying that it is independent when it is only a charade of independence. There is a need for some proper body to do this, which had originally been accepted in a schedule to the Bill setting up this new body, but that has now gone.

So I hope that the Independent Commission for Aid Impact doing the job will satisfy the complaint of the Minister in the other place that we do not need to set up a new body, and that this amendment can be accepted.

As my noble friend Lord MacGregor said, this is something about which the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, felt particularly strongly and he is very regretful that he cannot be here today at this late hour, but of course if it is not accepted now by the Government it can come back on Report—as many other amendments, I suspect, might come back on Report—when I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, will be able to move it with his customary eloquence and expertise. I support very strongly this amendment and I cannot think of a single good reason why it cannot be accepted.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Northover]

To start, I agree with noble Lords that the principle of independent evaluation is extremely important. It is important that ODA provided by the United Kingdom represents value for money. That is key to this legislation. Of course, the Independent Commission for Aid Impact is independent: it decides what it wishes to do. We heard some important criticisms from my noble friend Lord MacGregor of some of DfID’s work, which should reassure noble Lords that DfID will not go unscrutinised. However, the effect of the amendment could be to limit the current range of scrutiny options available, including the National Audit Office—which the noble Lord quoted extensively.

The Bill already asks the Secretary of State to include in each annual report a statement as to how he or she has complied with the duty under this clause. The annual report is already subject to scrutiny by both the National Audit Office and the International Development Committee in the House of Commons. The Independent Commission for Aid Impact also scrutinises what DfID does. Noble Lords are right that the duty to ensure independent evaluation is an important part of this legislation. However, we do not feel that tying that function to one particular agency is the answer.

As noble Lords will know, the IDC holds public hearings to take evidence—for example, on every ICAI report. In addition, it holds inquiries every year into ICAI’s annual reports, which again are held in public. The IDC’s recommendations are then published. Of course, the NAO has statutory responsibility for doing value for money studies on DfID’s work. The NAO reports to the PAC, which also makes recommendations about DfID’s work, in addition to ICAI.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

I was puzzled when my noble friend said she does not believe that there should be a particular organisation responsible for this. The Bill as originally published specifically set out an independent organisation to do this job. That is very important. When the amendment to remove that was discussed in the other place, at no time did my noble friend’s counterpart there say that the reason it was being removed was because they did not want just one body doing it. They said they did not want to set up an additional body. What we suggest is not an additional body but an existing one. Clearly the job needs to be done and it needs to be specified in the Bill how it is done.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Could the noble Baroness help me in respect of this amendment? Clause 5 says:

“The Secretary of State must make arrangements for the independent evaluation of the extent to which ODA provided by the United Kingdom represents value for money in relation to the purposes for which it is provided”.

My noble friend thinks—and I agree—that that is somewhat inadequate. Then, subsection (2) says:

“The Secretary of State must include in each annual report a statement as to how he or she has complied with the duty under subsection (1)”.

I presume that means subsection (1) of this clause, which says that she must make arrangements for the independent evaluation. Is the idea that the arrangements for the independent evaluation are subject to some kind of annual review? Surely the arrangements for independent evaluation should mean the creation of some kind of authoritative body to carry it out. The fact that Clause 5(2) says that you must have an annual report on this suggests that we will never get there.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, I wonder if I may draw this to a conclusion from my point of view before my noble friend sums up his amendments, without going down the sidetrack that some have gone down. As the Minister has indicated, Section 1(1) of the International Development (Reporting and Transparency) Act 2006 states:

“It shall be the duty of the Secretary of State to lay before each House of Parliament each year a report about international aid pursuant to the provisions of this Act”.

It is only Section 3 of that Act that is subsequently repealed by the measure before the House, and indeed that annual report will include a statement about how the arrangements for the independent evaluation of the extent to which ODA provided by the UK represents value for money. That is perfectly clear.

I am satisfied that the arrangements that need to be carried out to provide for independent evaluation should be carried out with the duties provided for under this legislation. It provides flexibility so that it is not constrained with regard to the body that carries that out. It is perfectly clear why that is the position of my right honourable friend Michael Moore, and I hope that that satisfies my noble friend.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

Before my noble friend sits down—

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

Not this noble friend; I meant my noble friend Lord MacGregor.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

Yes. I think that we have had sufficient discussion for the day about Clause 5(2), but we have still not had a satisfactory answer about the rather important Clause 5(1), which says:

“The Secretary of State must make arrangements for the independent evaluation of the extent to which ODA provided by the United Kingdom represents value for money in relation to the purposes for which it is provided”.

What the arrangements are should be and must be in the Bill. They were originally, because there was a schedule setting up a new body to do it. The schedule was taken out, and there is now a vacuum. We are not told in the Bill what these arrangements are, which body will ensure and evaluate the extent to which the ODA provided gives value for money, and so on.

My noble friend suggested in this amendment, “Why not use the ICAI and put it on a statutory basis?”, and that can be done. That seems very sensible, and I am rather suspicious about the rejection of this amendment, because it suggests that they are trying to weasel out of any effective independent evaluation. If they are not, what are the arrangements for the evaluation? Why not the ICAI, or why not restore the other body that was there originally? That must be in the Bill. I suspect, having heard the noble Lord’s obduracy on this point, that we will have to come to this again on Report. However, it is a very real point. No satisfactory answer of any kind has been given, either by the Minister or by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis.

[Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market]

My Lords, I share my noble friend’s concerns about this. We have been given very inadequate answers on this today, particularly from the Minister, and we will simply have to return to this on Report. It is a very important issue, because the size of the budget now, as my noble friend Lord Forsyth pointed out—about one-third of the defence budget—is huge. The taxpayer needs to be satisfied that the tasks have been properly and effectively carried out. It is one thing to set up an independent evaluation, which in the Secretary of State’s mind is an independent evaluation, and another thing to have one that is effective and that can convince us all that the department will undertake to get proper value for money.

That PAC report, which is probably one of the worst I have ever seen, does not give me a great deal of confidence that the Secretary of State is given total entitlement to set up the organisation that will reassure him about value for money. There are therefore some important distinctions here, and we have not yet had a satisfactory answer. As I said, it is a very important issue, and we shall have to return to it on Report. However, on that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I support my noble friend and very much agree with his remarks in respect of the conduct of the business today. The only thing in his excellent remarks on which I disagree with him is that he kept referring to a legally enforceable target. On my reading of the Bill, there is no legally enforceable target; there is a requirement for the department to try to spend exactly 0.7% of GDP in any one year, and a failure to do so simply requires it to produce yet another report to Parliament explaining why it has failed to do so. It is very important that we are clear on that because in the outside world it is being sold as something else, and the damage that is being done is the implementation of the 0.7% target.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, suggested that my noble friend go back and read the reports but that is not the point. This amendment is about seeking to ensure that we are aware of the influence of the 0.7% target on the quality and oversight of, and the opportunities for corruption from, UK aid. That is a really important point. The system is being changed. Until now, the department has had a budget. Part of the overseas development budget has been with other departments, including the Foreign Office—some of it might be associated with climate change, which I find a great mystery—and these departments have been able to spend on their programmes accordingly. The fact that between them all they now have to reach the target of 0.7% within a calendar year, as opposed to a financial year, will create and—the evidence is quite clear—has already created substantial problems.

Therefore, it is very important that we look at the impact of the inclusion of this target on the quality and effectiveness of the ODA programme and, similarly, at the degree to which DfID has been able to provide oversight of the other departments. If, as we discussed earlier, the effect of the target is that more has to be given to other organisations over which it has no control and from which there is no accountability, that will have an impact on proposed new paragraph (b) in the amendment, which concerns,

“the Department for International Development’s oversight of UK Overseas Development Programmes”.

I do not want to go over the same arguments at this hour but, as my noble friend Lord Lawson pointed out, there have recently been some quite disturbing reports from the NAO suggesting that money for programmes is being used by criminal elements on an international scale.

I think that the amendment is very sensible. If the Minister or the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, feel unable to accept it, we may have to return to this matter in rather more detail on Report because the impact of the department having a target of 0.7% will, in my view, have a seriously deleterious effect on the effectiveness of the overseas aid programme, and that needs to be monitored.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, my noble friend mentioned climate change—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

It is particularly relevant to what we are debating today, and I very much hope that the Minister will address it. I am opposed to the climate change policy of this Government because its purpose is to procure worldwide decarbonisation. That means getting the poor people in the developing world, whom we have been discussing, to move away from the cheapest form of energy and, instead, to embrace, at present and for the foreseeable future, much more expensive energy. In other words, it is a policy to impoverish poor people in the developing world. That is why I am opposed to it. It seems a bizarre and odd way in which to run a whelk stall having a Bill that is intended to relieve the poverty that we intend to create. I should be grateful if my noble friend can explain that.

[Baroness Northover]

I say to my noble friend Lord Tugendhat that I never expected anything other than full scrutiny of the Bill in this House. He can be assured that I made that extremely clear within my department, as I have done on other Bills in other departments in other instances.

The key issue here is that the Bill is about ensuring that the UK continues to meet its commitment on aid, which it has finally met. I am incredibly heartened by the cross-party agreement on this. As we heard at Second Reading, we know how much this is needed. However, underlying this debate is a sense that this is not the case and that there may not, therefore, be value for money. I emphasise that the Government have a clear commitment to ensuring value for money. I know that the Economic Affairs Committee in 2012 was concerned about the planned scale-up to meet the target because there was a significant increase in the budget. Clearly, the committee was right to raise that issue. However, we have now completed the scale-up to 0.7% and a number of external bodies have looked at this, including the December 2014 DAC external peer review, which said of our scale-up that our,

“Well planned … implementation was carefully monitored … and at the same time, strong efforts were made to avoid compromising the quality of the ODA programme, and progress towards results was regularly reviewed”.

In addition, we have strengthened the evidence base and procedures for project investment decisions. All proposals must have a business case, with proposals for projects of £40 million and above being subject to review through the department’s quality assurance unit. We have invested in strengthening programme management processes, capability and systems to transform the way in which we deliver programmes so that we are better able to tackle the underlying causes of poverty and conflict. We have introduced tighter spending controls. The threshold for ministerial approval of project business cases was reduced from £40 million to £5 million, with Ministers also approving supplier contracts worth more than £1 million. We have increased the use of payment by results. Under this approach, the department makes payments only after pre-agreed results are achieved, rather than up front. We have launched a development tracker online tool to provide more public information on UK development investment in projects. The department has also been commended for its openness. We have also talked in other amendments about the external scrutiny that occurs. I therefore hope that noble Lords are reassured about the level of scrutiny and what we have put in place within DfID.

There may be, at heart, disagreement here. Does the world still need this assistance or not? In terms of value for money, the assumption that because the budget has increased it would therefore be poor value for money needs to be challenged. As to the comments of my noble friend Lord Lawson, I am happy to engage on climate change, but perhaps not now.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, on a number of occasions today I have referred noble Lords to the Second Reading debate. In that debate I said that if this Bill passes, it will be because it is based on an entrenched and wide consensus across the three main political parties, external groups and the public, and it will become an enduring law. If a future Parliament chooses to repeal this legislation it will also be repealing that high degree of consensus. It would also have to be accountable to the electorate, and to some extent, constitutionally, that would be proper.

Therefore I end, with regret, by having to disappoint my noble friend Lord Forsyth. At the end of a long day, I record my appreciation for noble Lords whose support for the legislation Hansard will not be able to reflect—including the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, on the Opposition Benches, and my noble friend Lady Hodgson and other noble Lords on the Conservative Benches. Hansard does not always reflect the level of support or accurately reflect the opinions of Members in Committee. I hope I have corrected that. In that spirit, I hope that, after sunset, my noble friend will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, the hour is late so I shall be brief. My noble friend Lord Purvis made a point about this being agreed by all three political parties. That is true. That makes me worry. In my long experience, in most cases—not all, but most—when all three parties agree on something, they are wrong. There is a very good reason why that should be so. It means that the issue has not been properly examined. If there is not a proper political argument back and forth, there is not adequate examination. So I am afraid that the statement he made does not reassure me in the slightest.

As for the amendment before us, although my noble friend Lord Howell said that he disagreed with my noble friend Lord Forsyth, I think there was no conflict; I certainly agree with both of them. As far as my noble friend Lord Forsyth is concerned, I believe that we need to look at this new, greatly expanded aid programme and how it is working out. One of the problems, which has been alluded to briefly, is that the focus of aid is changing and more and more is going to fragile states and to what are often described as failed states. In those states the amount of corruption is absolutely appalling and there is nothing that DfID can do to eliminate that corruption, although it would like to. So one of the things that we will need to examine if there is a sunset clause and we want to renew this is whether we have, not deliberately, produced a machine that has significantly increased the amount of corruption, which is one of the great evils in these countries and, indeed, is one of the great reasons why they cannot lift their people out of poverty in the way that, happily, so many countries in the emerging world have done over the past few years. But there are others that have not, and that is where we are focusing our aid.

One of the most important things is the separation of economic and political power. This is fundamental to development. If people want to enrich themselves they go into the economic sphere; or they go, for different motives, into public service and the political sphere. If you do not have this separation and people go into politics in order to enrich themselves, which happens in a large number of countries, that is where it is so damaging and where aid will not help. That is why it needs to be reviewed at the end of five years.

Another valid point made by my noble friend Lord Forsyth is that the Minister said explicitly that one of the main purposes of the Bill was to set an example to the rest of the world. Fine. Actually, I do not think that is fine; it is not a proper reason for legislation. But leaving that aside, if that is the reason, after five years we can see whether the United States, Germany, France and Italy have followed suit. I am willing to have a modest wager with the Minister that in five years’ time—if I am still alive in five years’ time, which is unlikely—they will not have followed suit. Our efforts to get other countries to follow our example will prove to have failed, and that is another reason why Parliament should have positively to re-enact this legislation, if it wants to do so.

The final and important point made by my noble friend Lord Howell is that the world has changed—a point that I also made in an earlier amendment—and that there are better ways of trying to creating a better world than dishing out development aid. If that is so and we find that other countries are doing a better job by other means—we do not have time to discuss them now, but my noble friend has sketched them—that is another reason why Parliament should be required to take stock at the end of five years rather than ploughing on with this.

This is not chickenfeed: we are already spending well over £11 billion a year on aid. As a result of this Bill, this amount is scheduled to go on rising inexorably, year in, year out, if the economy is growing. We all hope that the economy will grow—even my noble friend the Minister wishes to see the economy grow—and, if it does, this will get bigger and bigger, year in, year out. However, if this is not the best way to achieve a better world in which there is less poverty and more economic development, we certainly do not want to continue with it.

If this Bill becomes an Act, its first five years will be a test bed. We want a provision that Parliament is obliged to address this issue anew at the end of five years. I strongly support my noble friend’s amendment.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, of course, if Labour wins the next general election there will be a massive cut in the overseas aid budget because our GDP will fall. I do not know if that is the intention behind the Bill, but it is a curious way of deciding priorities.

I am not going to rehearse the arguments and I am most grateful to my noble friends for their support. I thought, just for a nanosecond, that the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, was going to accept the amendment when he said that by the end of the next Parliament there will be such a consensus across the political parties that no one would dare to repeal this Bill. I thought he would say, “I have the confidence to accept the amendment because the position will be that crowds will be cheering in the streets at the prospect of this legislation being renewed”, based on the fantastic experience that the noble Lord predicts. I have to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, as she says, “Hear, hear”, that she does not seem to have the courage of her convictions. But I am not going to be tempted into making party-political points. If noble Lords who support the Bill believe that it is going to be so successful, then the very point made by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, in his remarks would make them open to accepting this amendment.

I sense that people have probably had enough of the Bill for today, and we look forward to returning to it on Report, hopefully after we have had a long rest and everyone has had an opportunity to read all the reports which have been referred to. They provide overwhelming evidence that the Bill should go forward, but that it is in need of amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.