Hate Crime

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 24th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend asks an interesting question. I referred earlier to the Law Commission, which we asked to undertake a wide-ranging review into hate crime legislation. On the specific question, the Law Commission found that adding sex and gender to hate crime legislation could have made it more difficult to prosecute the most serious crimes that harm women and girls, including rape and domestic abuse. It would also treat sex unequally to other characteristics in scope of relevant hate crime laws, such as race or religion. So, while I cannot necessarily specifically answer my noble friend’s point, I would say that it is an incredibly complex area that needs very careful thought.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, the Question from the noble Baroness, Lady Gohir, asked why hate crime statistics are not disaggregated by sex. But the question could equally be asked about why the data is not disaggregated by the age of the victim and the perpetrator. I well remember, when I sat on the pre-legislative scrutiny committee for the Domestic Abuse Bill, we had a lot of lobbying about violent acts against older people by younger people. Does the Minister agree that reporting the interaction of these characteristics, both sex and age, would allow resources to be better allocated for the victims and to prevent these types of crimes?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Again, the noble Lord raises an interesting point. He will be aware that age is not one of the five protected characteristics—as I get older, I am beginning to think that that is a mistake. I cannot answer his question in greater detail than that at the moment but I will certainly take it back to the department.

Chinese Police Stations in the UK

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Thursday 20th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, yesterday in the Times newspaper there was a report into a Chinese businessman with links to an alleged Chinese secret police station in Croydon. This report raises serious questions about national security. This businessman, who has attended Chinese Communist Party political conferences, has also attended organised Conservative Party fundraising dinners and other events involving former Conservative Prime Ministers. Although we have raised this issue here before, after police stations were reportedly uncovered in Hendon, Glasgow and Croydon, we have received no update. Meanwhile, operations in New York and the Netherlands have taken action against Chinese police operations, and the Canadian and German Governments have expressed concern about operations in their countries.

Here, we have to contend with the additional dimension that one individual who has been linked to an operation here has links with the Conservative Party and has met Ministers. We know that the director-general of MI5 has warned that Chinese authorities are attempting to exert influence over our political system. Can the Minister tell us the extent of the contact this individual has had with Ministers? What action are the Government taking to look into this role within the Conservative Party and the involvement he has had with the Government? Have any other individuals connected with these operations been identified, and are their similar concerns about them seeking to influence British politics?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, I share the noble Lord’s concern about this threat to our democracy, but as the Security Minister said in a previous Statement on this matter in November last year, investigations are still ongoing and it would be inappropriate for me to comment any further on operational matters, as to do so could obviously jeopardise future prosecutions.

However, I take this opportunity to reassure the House of the Government’s resolve to protect every community in this country from transnational repression. As regards the internal party aspects of this, it is my understanding—and if I am wrong, I will obviously come back to correct myself—that this individual was prominent in a particular Chinese organisation within the Cities of London and Westminster. Beyond that, I do not think he had any involvement or contact with Ministers, and, as all noble Lords around the House know, prominent politicians are featured in photographs with very many people, most of whom they will not know.

Short-term Holding Facility (Amendment) Rules 2022

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Tuesday 18th April 2023 Lords Chamber

Quite rightly, the sector has raised further questions on matters that have occurred since January. We on these Benches very much support—I was going to say “are pleased about”, but in the context that is wrong—the Motion.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I too thank my noble friend for bringing this regret Motion. She set out the reasons for doing so in her characteristically thorough way, and I will try not to repeat her points—but she has been so thorough. Nevertheless, I will set out the case as quickly as I can.

This SI creates a new category of STHF called the “residential holding room”. It appears that this has been created specifically for Manston detention centre, for which, as a non-residential STHF, the previous time limit was 24 hours. This SI changes the time limit to 96 hours, or four days. Additionally, the Secretary of State can extend this. Despite this being close to the five-day limit for residential STHFs, there are significant differences in the minimum conditions, which it is worth setting out. There is no requirement to allow migrants to have access to the internet or to send and receive correspondence, and there is no requirement to fund migrants to correspond with legal advisers, the court system or the UN Refugee Council. It is also unclear whether face-to-face visits are provided for, or whether detainees have the right to meet their legal advisers. There is also no requirement to have separate sleeping quarters for men and women—this was mentioned—or for minors to be housed in separate sleeping quarters, away from unrelated detainees. There are also reduced requirements for health-risk reporting by health staff.

The Government have defended the new rules, stating that the new category of STHF is needed because Manston is a “unique” facility that requires “bespoke” time limits and arrangements. Can the Minister confirm that it is indeed unique, in that there are no plans to extend RHRs to other sites in the future? Both my noble friend Lady Lister and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, raised this question, and I look forward to the Minister’s confirmation that this will not be extended.

We heard that stays in Manston have been confirmed to be much longer than the 24-hour limit—up to a month, according to the Home Office. I understand that there are exceptional circumstances and that the Government are in a difficult situation in many ways. I have a couple of questions for the Minister. Will some of the detainees at Manston who are being accommodated there for up to a month be entitled to phone calls, internet and gender-separated sleeping quarters, as they are in other facilities in which they are allowed to stay for only five days?

Also, given the reports of dozens of cases of diphtheria in Manston last year, and warnings from health officials that cases were spreading within migrant facilities, do the Government believe that the new requirements for health reporting in Manston will be enough to protect detainees’ health? The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, raised this question at Oral Questions today, and clearly there is concern about this matter. I note that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, compared the rhetoric of the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, in another Oral Question today, about the ideals of the Council of Europe and the ECHR—and here we are, talking about the practicalities of dealing with a difficult situation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, mentioned Eric, Lord Avebury, whom I am proud to claim as a noble kinsman. I remember many years in this House when he unremittingly raised the concerns of refugees—he may well be looking down on us in this debate now.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds raised an interesting idea, pointing out that quite soon we will deal with the Illegal Migration Bill, which may be an opportunity for this House, or perhaps the opposition parties, to investigate this SI and similar ones and to give them more thorough scrutiny. I was interested in that suggestion, and I will consider whether my party wants to take that further.

The questions have been set out thoroughly by my noble friend and other noble Lords, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Murray of Blidworth) (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions, and particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, for bringing this debate before the House. Clearly, these are important rules, and it is important that they get an airing and that the views of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee are considered in this forum. The debate obviously follows concerns about the new rules expressed in that report by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, and I will endeavour to answer them in the course of my speech and to address the questions of the previous contributors.

I will first put these new rules into context. Since 2018 we have, sadly, seen an enormous increase in the numbers of people choosing to put their lives into the hands of people smugglers and enter the UK unlawfully, after crossing the channel in small boats. We will all be aware that last year some 45,755 people crossed the channel, seeking to enter the country illegally. That figure was 60% higher than in 2021. We know that the estimates for this year range between 65,000 and 85,000. We also know that 51% of those 45,755 who arrived last year arrived in August, September and October, with 8,631 in August alone. The Manston facility in Kent was opened specifically to provide secure processing and security checks for those small-boat arrivals.

Anti-social Behaviour Action Plan

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Government for their Statement in the other place. Anti-social behaviour can inflict real misery on people and communities across the country. Although it is too often dismissed as low-level crime, persistent and corrosive anti-social behaviour can leave people feeling unsafe in their homes and on their streets.

The problem has been getting worse over the past 13 years. Last year, the police recorded 3,000 incidents of anti-social behaviour every single day. Criminal damage in town centres has increased by 30% in the past year, hitting communities and businesses trying to rebuild after Covid. It is not surprising then that YouGov has found that a majority of people do not think that the police take anti-social behaviour seriously enough. However, the police are having to fight more anti-social crime with fewer resources. There are 10,000 fewer neighbourhood police community support officers on the streets now than there were seven years ago. The number of people who do not see police on the streets has doubled in the past 10 years. Now, half the population does not see bobbies on the beat.

Although good work is being done by many officers, repeated cuts to budgets mean that the officers who are left simply cannot keep up with the demand. In polling published earlier this week, YouGov found that, of the one in three people who did not feel safe in their local area at night, two-thirds cited anti-social behaviour as one of the reasons. More than half of people —58%—who felt unsafe said that a lack of police presence contributed to that feeling.

This Statement contains many measures that we welcome, in large part because they are what we have been calling for for a number of years. We welcome the announcements on hotspot policing and faster community payback, both of which we have long called on the Government to implement.

This House also raised nitrous oxide with the Minister very recently, so I am sure that the ban will be welcomed by many Members. Nitrous oxide presents an increased risk to the health of young people and creates a litter nuisance, so we welcome this ban.

However, there is much more that is not mentioned but should be if the Government want to get serious about reducing anti-social behaviour. The Statement does not contain more money for youth service budgets which, according to the YMCA, have been cut by £1 billion since 2010. It does not bring back the drug intervention network set up to save lives and prevent crime associated with illegal drug use that has been eroded. It does not deal with the backlog in community payback schemes, which means millions of hours of community service work have gone uncompleted. It does not improve the declining number of people being charged with criminal damage, nor the decreasing number of community sentences being handed out. Nor does it provide anything for victims of anti-social behaviour—victims who are not covered by the victims’ code or the newly published victims Bill.

Perhaps most importantly, the Statement does not mention neighbourhood policing. Hotspot policing, while welcome and important in targeting areas where it is most needed, is not a substitute for long-term neighbourhood policing embedded in communities. With 1.1 million incidents of anti-social behaviour occurring in the past year, it is clear that hotspot policing alone will not touch the sides of the problem.

Dealing with anti-social behaviour effectively means preventing serious crime later down the line and allowing strong communities to flourish, but this Statement presents solutions that are too small and have come too late. Without serious investment in neighbourhoods and neighbourhood policing, we simply will not see a reduction in the anti-social behaviour that is causing misery across the country.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, we on these Benches agree with restorative justice, but we have to test this plan against what makes good restorative justice. We know that anti-social behaviour is distressing in communities, and that it leads to a loss of respect for communities. I have a sort of déjà vu, because we saw an experiment of this kind during the Blair Government and I think that this plan has missed some of the lessons learned from that. For a restorative justice system and scheme to be successful, we must recognise that it is complex, expensive and difficult, and it must meet the ambitions of a truly restorative justice programme, which has to include things such as catching the culprits, getting the community view, providing the equipment, providing appropriately qualified supervision and, crucially, incentivising success. It must act not just as a deterrent but as an opportunity.

I will examine some of those issues and question the Minister on them. Catching the culprits requires a shift in policing methodology. It means that we have proper community policing. This is at a time when the number of PCSOs has dramatically declined right across the country, and this is just the sort of job they should be doing. The Government have so far failed to meet their target of 20,000 more police officers, and effective community policing means putting officers on our streets who are both visible and trusted. Beyond that, it means providing the necessary equipment and supervision; think of items to remove graffiti, sacks for the separation of litter and appropriate disposal operations, painting equipment, et cetera.

An experience I saw first hand in the 2000s was the danger of getting larger groups of people to do the same sort of work. I well remember seeing a group of people with hi-vis jackets, doing all the things that are in this plan, painting some railings outside a community hall. There was a minibus full of them, with one person supervising at one end and another person, who was supposed to be painting, on his phone at the other end. It was unclear what support they were getting to ensure that they were doing the job. If you are going to bring the people who are making these acts together, you must make sure they are few enough to be managed well and by the right people.

We think that making nitrous oxide illegal just will not work, especially when it goes against the advice of the Government’s own drugs body. It will hand profit and control to serious criminals. There is a danger here of perhaps confusing the mess that people make when taking this gas with its usage. One of the obvious questions I have to ask the Minister is this: we all know about children, adults as well, and party balloons—the child holds the string, lets go and asks dad for another one, please. These balloons are used on a huge number of occasions all around the country, so we can imagine their purchase becoming a source of usage as well. Is this a case of a perverse incentive or is the Minister going to tell us that children’s balloons will be banned?

I will spend a short moment looking at the costs of a proper restorative justice system and at the way these figures are laid out in the action plan. To look at the extra that is being done—the change from yesterday to today, if you like—we have to look at the sections in the plan headed

“How we will go further”.

I looked at the amounts in the plan and the figures include £50 million on immediate justice measures. How many extra PCSOs, police and supervisors will that money provide? Is that £50 million part of the cost of providing the extra police that is already in the plan to reach the target of 20,000? Is this additional or part of an existing plan?

The £60 million for hotspot enforcement is obviously very welcome, but will it reach the whole country, given where these hotspots are at the moment? If one views the map given in the plan, one sees that it requires a huge effort to spread this right across the country. When will the best practice guides on how they will be operating be published?

Not a penny of extra support for rough sleeping is mentioned. This country dealt with this matter during Covid and had to spend quite a bit of money to make it work, but there is not a single penny of extra money mentioned in that area. Some £2.5 million is given to improve our high streets and £1 million to improve local activities across England and Wales. That is for the full rollout of measures in the next year or so, so the amounts of money given do not seem to fulfil the plan’s aspirations. Can the Minister explain how that money provides sufficient resource for a whole-country rollout, when so much of what is being done already applies to small, discrete areas dotted around the country?

I am drawn to the conclusion that this plan gives the impression of not having all the tools necessary to do the job properly. I am afraid that the Government have put the headline and the soundbite before the true benefits that a well-resourced restorative justice plan can provide.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Ponsonby and Lord German, for their remarks. Since taking up office, the Prime Minister has been clear that the people’s priorities are his priorities. That is why, in delivering on his five promises, he is determined to build stronger communities and create a better future for people across the country.

For too long, anti-social behaviour has blighted our neighbourhoods, making people’s lives a misery and stopping businesses and individuals from flourishing. As the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, said, this is not just low-level or petty crime, or kids being kids; it is an attack on the very heart of our communities. It threatens people’s sense of safety and security and, as the noble Lord rightly observed, it is a source of anxiety to many members of the public. That is why we have launched this plan to crack down on anti-social behaviour: to restore people’s confidence that these crimes will be quickly and visibly punished. That means treating it with the urgency it deserves.

I will answer as many of the questions as I can. As ever, if I miss any, I will commit to write, having read Hansard properly. We are on track and on time in recruiting 20,000 additional police officers by March 2023. All the funding within this program is additional to that uplift. Assuming we are successful, that will take us to over 148,000 officers across England and Wales. That will be the highest number of officers on record.

Since 2019, the Government have invested over £3 billion, including additional funding each year, and that rolled into government grants to recruit and support the additional 20,000 officers. We are providing police and crime commissioners with £22 million next year, and £90 million in 2024-25, to support an enhanced response to areas most affected by anti-social behaviour and to roll out immediate justice pilots.

However, as the action plan sets out, local authorities and other local agencies will also have a key role to play. We expect local partners to work together to deliver a multiagency approach to tackling anti-social behaviour and delivering the proposals set out in the action plan. I feel I should remind noble Lords that operational policing is a matter for chief constables, and they set operational priorities in their local areas in association and consultation with the police and crime commissioners. Questions about local policing are obviously better directed to those people who are locally accountable.

This plan is backed by over £160 million of funding. Up to £60 million will fund increased police and other uniformed presence to clamp down on this behaviour, including targeting the hotspots, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord German. Although he did not ask me, I reassure him that this will not impinge on any of the spending that currently goes into the pilot areas for things such as violence reduction units and GRIPs. This method of policing has been proven to work in other areas, and we expect success from the hotspot areas that we will pilot. The intention is for it to go to 10 police force areas.

I move on to the subject of immediate justice. We are planning on investing £50 million to support the provision of immediate justice by issuing out-of-court disposals with conditions to swiftly repair any damage. The aim will be for them to start within 48 hours of the offence. This will start in 10 initial trail-blazer police force areas and be rolled out nationally in 2024.

I heard what the noble Lord, Lord German, had to say on the subject of making this efficient. The Government are aware of all of his concerns. There is no denying that the delivery of this program will be complex, but it is definitely worth doing. It is aimed at diverting offenders away from the criminal justice system and will make them undertake practical, reparative activity to make good the loss or damage sustained by victims. It will be rolled out to all police force areas in 2024-25. The focus will be on reparative activity, but that may be undertaken alongside rehabilitative and restorative services that foster connection with the local community, and educational interventions. It will apply primarily to adults and young people in receipt of conditional cautions for ASB-related offences under the out-of-court disposal framework. I am quite sure that all noble Lords will agree that keeping people out of the criminal justice system as far as possible is a desirable outcome.

The noble Lord, Lord German, asked about banning nitrous oxide and pointed out that, in its recent report, the ACMD did not recommend that we criminalise this. That is true, but we take the broader context into account. There are health concerns with young people using nitrous oxide. As I said at the Dispatch Box a couple of weeks ago, it was an offence under the Psychoactive Substances Act to supply knowing that it would be used for these purposes. This gives the police the opportunity to confiscate or take possession of the drugs. I do not think that there is a particular intention to criminalise the lots of young people who use it. I reassure the noble Lord that his balloons will not be banned—there will be exceptions for legitimate users. We talked about some of those the other week, and they include medical, dental and apparently whipped cream producers—which amused me at the time but did not seem to amuse the House. Everybody should be reassured that this is the right thing to do. I note that the only other country to have criminalised this so far is Holland. The Dutch did so because they discovered that it was having a fairly significant impact on drug-driving. There are good reasons for doing what the Government have chosen to do, despite the advice—which I might add did not say that we should not do it—of the ACMD.

There was a good deal of discussion about youth services, and I will go into a little more detail on some of the things that we are doing. As part of the national youth guarantee, we will invest over £500 million to provide high-quality local youth services so that, by 2025, every young person will have access to regular clubs and activities, adventures away from home and opportunities to volunteer. That directly reflects young people’s priorities, and includes up to 300 new and refurbished youth spaces delivered through the Youth Investment Fund. We are also giving councils the resources they need to deliver important local services, with an additional £3.7 billion, which will not be ring-fenced, made available for things such as youth services. I could say more on this subject, and I am sure that I will be asked more on it.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord German, asked me about the fact that he could not find any funding dedicated to rough sleeping and high streets. As I said in my opening remarks, this is a multiagency approach and there are many ways to tackle these problems. The high street in particular, and things such as the empty dwellings Act and the tenant Act, do not really require vast amounts of investment; they just require some new thinking, and that is what the Government are doing.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, I have a question. When he talked about out-of-court disposals, which we approve of in principle, he used three words: reparative, rehabilitative and restorative. Traditionally, those three things are managed by probation, YOTs, charities or NGOs. On the reparative activity in particular, which, from what the Minister said, is hoped to be done within 48 hours, who will manage that part of the process? It is different from what that group of agencies does at the moment.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord asks a very good question. I note that none of those three words is easy to pronounce, particularly not at the Dispatch Box. As I said in my answer about the high streets and so on, it is a multiagency approach. A number of different agencies will be involved on a case-by-case basis. It depends on the circumstances of the case. It may be that there are opportunities for drug referrals or maybe other things. I cannot be more specific at this point, but I am sure I will be able to update him in due course on the more precise details.

Black and Minority-ethnic Children: Police Strip-searches

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 27th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that. I am extremely happy to pay tribute to Dame Rachel de Souza for her report, which strikes me as very comprehensive—although I confess to having read only part of it so far. I agree with some of her conclusions, as I have just said, and I think that the one about schools is an entirely appropriate conclusion to have reached. In my opinion, strip-searches should be conducted only in very safe and secure places.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, one of the report’s conclusions was that there were widely differing practices in stop and search and strip-searches across the country. Does the Minister believe that there are good examples of stop and search and strip-search, and what can the Government use from those examples? Is it not right that particular communities—I am talking about young black men—have very little trust in the police service, and that it does not take much for things to kick off and for the police to use further interventions which are wholly undesirable as a result of the original police intervention?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord’s last point; that is a significant issue for the police and for us all. It relates to so many other issues that we deal with on a daily basis regarding the police, including things that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has brought up in previous debates, such as recruitment and so on. Regarding strip-search, I argue that, where the rules are followed, which are pretty clear and rigorous, it could be appropriate under certain circumstances. However, there needs to be an appropriate adult present, and there are complications around that, including making sure that there are enough of them. The other rules and safeguards that are already in place need to be followed.

Passports: Strike Action and Voter ID

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 20th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that suggestion. Great efforts are made to advertise the availability of the voter authority certificate. Anyone concerned that a document that they intend to use will not be available by polling day may also apply to appoint a proxy up to 5 pm on polling day itself—so considerable steps have been taken to address my noble friend’s point.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, has come up with a very practical solution to this potential problem. Can the noble Lord undertake to the House and the noble Baroness that he will look at her suggestion and come up with a more considered answer?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I can certainly indicate that careful consideration is given to these issues. As always, we will consider all the recommendations and advice given to this House, including from my noble friend.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 20th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I agree up to a point. The Government are taking a central role, not least through the review into the dismissal process that I have talked about before. I have little doubt that that will become a topical subject within the next 24 hours. That will look into the composition of misconduct panels, including the impact of the role of legally qualified chairs; more broadly, it will look at things such as the appeals mechanism and the effectiveness of the performance system, including for officers who have failed vetting. That review was launched on 17 January and was said to take about four months to conclude. We are getting towards the end of that process, so there will be more to be said.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister said he has no powers to intervene. He also said there is a judicial process in which he does not want to intervene. Can he give the House a date by which that judicial process will start?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid I cannot.

Nitrous Oxide

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Wednesday 15th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend makes a very good point but the advisory council did not actually recommend that. It said that nitrous oxide should be kept subject to the provisions in the Psychoactive Substances Act 2016. However, as I said earlier, we are considering all the recommendations of the report, and the Home Secretary has a duty to consider advice on whether to pursue control under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that nitrous oxide is a gateway drug and may well lead to young people in particular moving on to other drugs which are even more harmful? Does he also accept that the courts and the police force find it difficult to deal with the multitude of available drugs, which are constantly changing, so there needs to be huge vigilance to try to understand the range of drugs available to our young people?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I do not have any personal knowledge of whether it is a gateway drug, but the evidence that I have seen certainly suggests that to be the case; I believe it is the third most common drug in England and Wales after cannabis and cocaine, so I suspect that the noble Lord is right. As regards vigilance, I agree; obviously we have a long-term drugs strategy to take the challenge of drug misuse very seriously. It is a 10-year strategy, significant funds have been dedicated towards it, and it includes investing significant amounts of money in an ambitious programme of drug treatment and recovery.

Public Order Bill

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 14th March 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede]

At end insert “and do propose the following additional amendment to the words so restored to the Bill—

33C: Clause 20, page 24, line 31, at end insert—
“(d) P’s conduct was frivolous or vexatious, beyond a genuine expression of their right to protest.””

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I appreciate the significant concessions the Government have made on serious disruption prevention orders. I believe that the clause is in a better place than when it was introduced, in part thanks to the efforts across this House; in particular, those of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson.

My amendment to the Minister’s Motion D seeks to make it explicit in the Bill that a magistrates’ court may issue an SDPO only if it reasonably believes that a person’s conduct has been frivolous or vexatious, to the extent that it has gone beyond a genuine expression of their inalienable right to protest. This criterion is in addition to, not instead of, that which requires that a person must have been convicted of two or more protest- related offences or contempt of court over breaches of an injunction. We believe that this is an important safeguard to the flawed clause, which we accept that the other place has voted to keep in the Bill. This change will ensure that the courts, when assessing whether someone’s behaviour warrants a prevention order of this kind, will have to rule explicitly that they have gone further than what can reasonably be interpreted as genuine protest. We hope this will protect those exercising their democratic freedoms in good faith.

I have spoken to colleagues across the House, and I will not seek to test the opinion of the House on my Motion, but I will listen with interest to other noble Lords’ contributions to this very short debate. I beg to move.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, we on these Benches accept that the amendments have been made in the Commons but are still concerned that they do not go far enough. Taking the matter back to the beginning, the bar set on which people can be convicted or the orders can eventually be issued is based on the balance of probabilities. That matter was the source of a great deal of discussion in this House. A bar has been set which is basically non-evidential, because no evidence has to be proven of what has happened. Any amendments which would raise that bar just above a zero threshold are to be commended.

Having made the orders less draconian and brought them in line with the terrorism prevention and investigation measures, the SPDOs are to be imposed on protesters, taking away their rights to freedom of speech and freedom of expression, on the balance of probabilities. His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services reported, in its review of public order policing, that it doubted that these orders are workable, even with a breach of the order occurring. A person attending a protest peacefully, in breach of an SPDO, is unlikely to be treated by the court in the same manner as a potential terrorist. Courts would look at the effect of an order and measure that against the breach of human rights legislation, and, in the end, the effect of an order breaching a person’s human rights could well override the effect of the order.

As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, pointed out in Committee, these orders would remove people’s rights under Articles 10 and 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights, but only if a court was satisfied, on the balance of probabilities, that depriving people of their human rights on the weakest of evidential tests was sufficient. Therefore, there is an expectation that the courts would use a breach of human rights legislation to override the effect of the SPDO.

In seeking to raise the bar from zero—the bar is sitting on the floor, as no evidence is required—these amendments at least provide an evidential activity. They require an officer to have observed the evidence behind the requirement. The requirement in the amendments before us may not be sufficient, but it certainly lifts the bar, in relation to evidence, off the floor. In fact, we need to help police officers. Police officers may be faced with situations without evidence, such as listening to somebody’s hearsay about a protester. Alternatively, they may have it in their mind that possible action will take place if they assume that a protester, who is standing peacefully and undertaking a peaceful activity, could well jump across the road, lie on the ground and stop the traffic. In those cases, they would not have any evidence that the person was about to conduct themselves in a dangerous manner, so it would be effective to introduce provisions for that. This set of amendments could provide for those matters, but, as I have said, in a very limited way.

As the noble Lord will not press his amendment to a vote, it seems to us that the Government have to consider how the courts will deal with these matters when they are placed before them, when we have human rights legislation guaranteeing freedom of speech, freedom to join together with others and freedom of expression. When all those rights are being harmed, what will the courts say and are the Government sufficiently ambitious that they think that their evidence based on these rules will give the human rights opinion any credence whatever?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, again, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their thoughtful and considered contributions to this debate. As I have already detailed, the Government listened carefully to your Lordships’ concerns regarding the serious disruption prevention order measures. Orders will now be applied only where individuals have been convicted of protest-related offences or breaches of protest-related injunctions on at least two occasions.

The noble Lord, Lord German, argued that serious disruption prevention orders contravene the European Convention on Human Rights. They do not. The right to protest is fundamental and despite sensationalist claims such as that, that will not change. These orders will ensure that individuals who deliberately cause serious disruption more than twice will face justice. Articles 10 and 11 of the ECHR set out that everyone has the right to freedom of expression, assembly and association. However, these rights are not absolute and must be balanced with the rights and freedoms of others.

I hope your Lordships will be satisfied that the Government have responded with a very significant offer that addresses the key concerns expressed throughout the passage of this Bill. The Bill will better balance the rights of protesters with the rights of individuals to go about their daily lives free from disruption and address the ever-evolving protest tactics we have seen employed by a selfish minority of protesters. Blocking motorways and slow walking in roads delays our life-saving emergency services, stops people getting to work and drains police resources. The British people are rightly fed up with it and are demanding action from their lawmakers.

It is time for this Bill to become law. I thank the noble Lord for saying that he will withdraw his Motion.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion D1 (as an amendment to Motion D) withdrawn.

Carriers’ Liability (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 13th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, the usual channels on the Opposition Benches have just had a quick word with me, saying that the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, will be able to contribute to the debate.

On these Benches, we welcome the opportunity that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has given us to debate the regulations and the code of practice. He has comprehensively and usefully set out his concerns. We are concerned that—first, through these sanctions on drivers, and, secondly, in the new Illegal Migration Bill, which is still being debated in the other place—the Government are failing to target the criminal gangs exploiting vulnerable people. Their actions never seem to go upstream to get at the smugglers and traffickers. Does the Minister agree that the Government should be focusing on stopping dangerous crossings by whichever means, whether in the back of lorries or on small boats in the channel, by exercising criminal investigations and prosecutions in co-operation with our European partners? Does the Minister agree that providing safe and legal routes to sanctuary is one way of undermining the criminal gangs involved in people smuggling and trafficking?

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about the need for a “coherent and holistic policy”. That theme is shared by many critics of the Government’s many actions on what they call “illegal” asylum seekers, but what my Benches and I would call “irregular” asylum seekers. The Government are flailing around all the time; they never address the need for safe routes and the need to work in partnership to target the criminal gangs. In addition, can the Minister provide an update on what investment the Government are making in officers, training and technology to prevent irregular entry at Britain’s borders?

On the specifics of the code of practice and the regulations, does the Minister recognise the validity of some of the concerns expressed by the Road Haulage Association on the clandestine vehicle checklist? I take the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, that “clandestine” is not defined. The RHA says that the clandestine vehicle checklist is too vague and requires clarity to be of use to operators. That is in the light of the comment in the Explanatory Memorandum to the regulations, that, in response to the consultation:

“Stakeholders welcomed the review of the current vehicle security Code of Practice and supported looking to articulate the required standards more clearly.”


Certainly, in the view of one of the main trade associations, the Road Haulage Association, that aim has not been fulfilled, and I will quote some of the specific points it raises. The first is that

“checking beneath HGVs is not always easy or safe especially if a vehicle has low axles”—

I presume that means, in layman’s terms, that you are expected to crawl underneath an enormous lorry, which sounds not only difficult but potentially unsafe. Then it points out:

“The section that calls for ‘checks inside vehicle for signs of unauthorised access’ is too vague, as it does not list whether trailers should be empty before loading.”


The RHA also says:

“Some checks would also be difficult to carry out with temperature-controlled vehicles as opening them requires a refrigerated environment.”


That seems a fair point. Are drivers expected to carry out checks on a refrigerated vehicle in the middle of a July or August day in France? The fourth point the RHA makes is that

“trailers filled with boxes make it impossible to check the roof for signs of forced entry, due to the impossibility of opening the … doors while on the road.”

Those objections all seem reasonable, understandable and eminently sensible, and I look forward to the Minister addressing them.

Finally, I ask the Minister about the fact that, apparently, the only statutory defence would be duress, as

“it will no longer be a statutory defence to say that an effective system for preventing the carriage of clandestine entrants was in operation”.

In quite a lot of scenarios for regulated activities, the emphasis is often on whether you have an adequate policy and a system, so that, if something happens that should not have happened, you can show that you had all the preparation, systems and safeguards necessary. But apparently that would not apply in this situation; the only defence would be if the driver could show that they were put under duress, even if they had done everything reasonable in the circumstances. It is a very narrow basis for a defence.

I look forward to the Minister responding to as many of my points as possible.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, we in the Labour Party support these statutory instruments because we believe we need stronger action to tackle dangerous lorry crossings, crack down on criminal smuggler gangs and secure the UK’s borders. Given that the maximum penalty levels have not risen since 2002, we believe it is right to look at these levels as we are now.

However, the Government have said that these measures are being put in place to tackle negligence rather than criminality. Given this, what do the Government plan to do to tackle criminal smuggling and trafficking gangs using lorries to transport migrants? How many of the 3,838 incidents during the previous financial year do the Government believe have been caused by negligence rather than criminality? How many incidents do the Government estimate these new penalty levels will prevent? How many convictions have the Government secured in the previous year against criminal gangs organising vehicle crossings of migrants? Some hauliers have said that there is little more they can do to ask their drivers to better secure their vehicles while maintaining health and safety regulations. How will the Government ensure that these fines target those who are being genuinely negligent?