Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland: Follow-up Report (European Affairs Committee)

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 11th September 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, open by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Jay, and his committee for this second excellent report—nine chapters and five appendices, with detailed evidence gathering, conclusions and questions for the Government. I, too, have not read the letter that the Government provided today, but the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, described it as “gritty”. That bodes well that it is answering some of the detailed questions raised. I think that the noble Baroness said that it corrected some of the points—but, no, she is shaking her head on that. Nevertheless, it is a gritty answer to the report of the noble Lord, Lord Jay, which is a good thing. My noble friend Lord Hain described the committee as a “right handful”, and I noticed that nobody demurred from that assessment of the committee—but I suspect that that is a compliment to the noble Lord, Lord Jay, as well.

The report looked in turn at all the areas covered by the framework. In each case, it set out an overview of the UK’s and EU’s respective positions on how the framework’s arrangements will work, and the evidence that the committee received from business representatives, Northern Ireland experts and other stakeholders. Overall, the committee concluded that

“the Windsor Framework is an improvement on the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland as originally negotiated”.

We in the Opposition agree wholeheartedly with this principal conclusion. Nevertheless, the committee goes on to say:

“Nevertheless, it is evident that the Windsor Framework does not resolve all the problems with the Protocol”.


For instance, while some witnesses highlighted the benefits of the new red and green lane arrangements, the committee heard that they would not be available to all businesses.

We hope that the red and green lane system will prove beneficial to eligible businesses and by extension to consumers, who will be able to buy products that were essentially banned under the unamended protocol. However, as the Library briefing note says, it does not cover all businesses and would require many businesses—SMEs in particular—to prepare for and implement yet another set of changes to how they operate on a day-to-day basis.

The committee heard concerns from witnesses about

“the technical and legal complexity of the Windsor Framework, and the multiple documents and legal texts that form part of it”.

Witnesses were also concerned about

“the lack of operational detail”

against

“the backdrop of tight deadlines for compliance”.

The committee said it would explore with stakeholders in the autumn whether the new guidance published by the Government from June 2023 onwards has answered these concerns. I had a brief chat with the noble Lord, Lord Jay, before this meeting, and I am pleased that the committee is continuing its work up until the general election.

The committee found that the solutions reached on VAT and excise were

“pragmatic compromises between the UK and EU positions”.

It believed the compromise on state aid

“gives rise to some uncertainty”.

While the pharmaceutical industry “strongly welcomed” the solution on human medicines, the committee said that an agreement on veterinary medicines

“remains elusive, and is urgently required”.

The committee will be aware that the Government have now agreed terms for the UK to return to the EU’s Horizon and Copernicus schemes, which the noble Lord, Lord Godson, referred to. Although these are not directly related to the protocol and Windsor Framework, which we are debating, this is an example of how the UK-EU relationship has changed for the better. In fact, we in the Opposition argued that returning to Horizon is the lowest hanging fruit post-Windsor, and yet it has still taken six to seven months for the Government to get it over the line. We continue to believe that the Brexit agreement can be improved. While we would not seek to renegotiate the protocol again, our talks with EU partners suggest that a more constructive approach would enable add-on deals that benefit both Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

The committee found that the new Stormont brake mechanism “divides opinion” between those who see it as an

“innovative attempt to give Northern Ireland politicians a voice over the application of EU law to Northern Ireland”

and those who believe it will have a “negligible impact” because of its “stringent conditions” and “limited scope”.

We are expecting five SIs to be debated in the coming weeks in order to implement various aspects of the Windsor Framework ahead of them going live. I would like to ask the Minister what engagement has been carried out with Northern Ireland colleagues, of all parties and none, prior to those SIs being drawn up and laid. The very presence of these SIs puts into sharp contrast the importance of getting Stormont back up and running, partly to facilitate potential use of the Stormont brake under the framework, but primarily to bring an end to the democratic deficit faced by Northern Ireland citizens.

In conclusion, in August this year, the Secretary of State Mr Heaton-Harris said that talks with the DUP were “half way there” to re-establishing an Executive and Assembly. There was further speculation in today’s Times about ongoing talks. I hope the Minister can say at least something about the intensity of those ongoing discussions and where they may lead.

Big Society

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for developing the role of the magistracy in the Big Society.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede]

My Lords, noble Lords will be aware that this year is the 650th anniversary of the establishment of the magistracy. I was sworn in as a magistrate nearly six years ago and I now sit both on adult and youth matters. The lay magistracy is a triumph of volunteerism and localism. Even in central London where I sit, most of my colleagues have lifetimes of experience of living and working in London and bring this experience to their adjudications on a daily basis. Like jurors, magistrates are unpaid and unqualified; unlike jurors, however, we will hear hundreds of cases a year and we are trained and advised by experienced legal advisers who keep us on the legal straight and narrow. Some 95 per cent of criminal cases are dealt with in the magistrates’ courts. I believe that all this adds up to a unique institution which is a cornerstone of civic life.

So what of the future? In this short debate I want to concentrate on areas where I believe the magistracy could play a greater role in enhancing the public’s faith in the justice system. There seem to be three main problems affecting the public perception of the court system. The first is the poor administration and slowness of the court system itself. The second is the public scepticism on the appropriateness of community-based sentences and the third is the representativeness of magistrates themselves. To tackle the first issue—the poor administration of the court system itself—when I first sat only six years ago I was amazed at the complete lack of computer support. The whole process in court was paper-based. Now it is common to book trials online, for lawyers and JPs to check sentencing guidelines online and also to call up maps and photos of locations for traffic matters, and things like that. Nevertheless the bulk of the process is still paper-based. I was heartened to note that in the new Westminster court house in Marylebone every desk position in every court has a plug and phone jack to enable a computer to be set up. Digitising the criminal justice system is a huge and complex task but progress is being made and the benefits are there to be reaped. I understand that 2014 is the target date for completing this task.

However, court is a team effort and each member of the team needs to contribute to the effective management of the case load. Digitising the system will reap big benefits but will never replace a properly motivated and appreciated court team. The Government need to keep that at the forefront of their mind when introducing sweeping changes. It has to be a concern that cuts to staff will hold up progress towards digitising the courts process and reduce staff morale, which in turn will affect performance and the public view of the effectiveness of the system. Magistrates can help by setting the tone of the court itself—making sure it is well managed, making progress whenever possible and putting the interests of justice first without cutting corners or delaying decisions. I believe that magistrates can and do help the process by using courtrooms when appropriate and being sympathetic to other people using their computing systems.

The next matter is public scepticism on the appropriateness and effectiveness of community sentences. I believe that this scepticism is exaggerated mainly by the press and that most people want community sentences to be used as much as possible. They also want them to be tough and effective. I read the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, to the University of Hertfordshire at the beginning of October and I agreed with his aspirations for community punishments. It is, however, in the role of magistrates that we see a lot of people who have reoffended while on community sentences but we do not see those who succeed and never offend again. There are, of course, some limited interactions with people while they are completing their community orders but this tends to be the exception rather than the rule. I would also point out that those who point to the ineffectiveness of short-term prison sentences when compared to community sentences in stopping reoffending only tell half the truth. In my experience, the vast majority of those given short-term prison sentences have previously failed on community orders, so to say that short-term prison sentences are ineffective is misleading.

Nevertheless, I welcome the development of community -based sentencing options, such as restorative justice programmes, neighbourhood justice panels, community courts, and other initiatives which I know the Ministry of Justice is pursuing. I believe that these are worth while and worth supporting. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, went into some depth on his aspirations for neighbourhood justice panels and spoke with feeling—I read it with feeling—about the potential benefits of such a system. As far as I can see, the system will be based on the approach now taken with youths and locally recruited youth offender panels. As I said, I share his aspirations but I think that it is fair for me to point out the potential pitfalls of such a system.

I believe that the courts and victims in particular could become separated from the sentencing process itself. At present it is rare for victims to be in court when an offender is sentenced, and it will be even rarer if there is a separate and subsequent neighbourhood justice panel meeting at which the activities of the community sentences are agreed. I accept that this is a conundrum with no easy solution that we also grapple with in youth courts. At its heart is the fact that there needs to be a level of trust and confidence between those who give the sentences and those who administer them: namely, the probation service and youth offender teams. Poorly administered community sentences can and do undermine both magistrates' and victims' faith in the sentence. Breaches in particular need to be brought to court in a timely manner.

I have visited a number of unpaid work projects over the years and have invariably been impressed by them, but sentencers need to be confident that the programmes offered are realistic, achievable and above all properly administered. I will add that I believe that localism is a good aspiration for the courts system. Even in London, most people regard themselves as local to a particular area and would like to see community sentences carried out in their areas.

I move on to the representativeness of magistrates. Magistrates, like jurors, should be drawn from the communities in which they live. It is desirable that they are drawn from all areas, and this is particularly important for areas where there is a high crime rate. Achieving this is difficult and I know that the matter is taken very seriously by the committees responsible for the recruitment of magistrates. Nevertheless, it is a fair generalisation that certain groups are underrepresented on the Bench. I would nominate Afro-Caribbean men as an important and underrepresented group. Having said that, I believe that Benches are quite diverse, but it is perhaps inevitable that those with the time to give to this public service predominate. The Ministry of Justice should play an active role not just in communicating opportunities to serve as a magistrate but more generally in promoting the role of the magistracy itself.

I have two simple suggestions to increase diversity on the Bench. First, adverts for magistrates should be placed on buses and tubes. They used to be, but I have not seen an advert for many years, and I have long-standing colleagues who came on to the Bench after seeing those adverts. My second suggestion is that there should be a modest payment to local magistrates. We are not paid at the moment, whereas local councillors, tribunal members and Members of this House are paid. I remember that the justification for starting to pay local councillors was precisely to increase the diversity of those who serve on local councils.

In conclusion, I have spoken about three areas: poor administration of the courts system, public perception of community sentences and the representativeness of magistrates. In each area, magistrates play a crucial role in the development of the courts system. All communities have the right to be confident that their local court services are delivered to a nationally consistent and high standard. It is of paramount importance that members of the public maintain their trust in the courts system and in the thousands of lay magistrates who sit every day to decide on matters that affect their fellow citizens. This debate was framed as a question. It is a genuine one and I look forward to the noble Lord's response.