(13 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for developing the role of the magistracy in the Big Society.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
My Lords, noble Lords will be aware that this year is the 650th anniversary of the establishment of the magistracy. I was sworn in as a magistrate nearly six years ago and I now sit both on adult and youth matters. The lay magistracy is a triumph of volunteerism and localism. Even in central London where I sit, most of my colleagues have lifetimes of experience of living and working in London and bring this experience to their adjudications on a daily basis. Like jurors, magistrates are unpaid and unqualified; unlike jurors, however, we will hear hundreds of cases a year and we are trained and advised by experienced legal advisers who keep us on the legal straight and narrow. Some 95 per cent of criminal cases are dealt with in the magistrates’ courts. I believe that all this adds up to a unique institution which is a cornerstone of civic life.
So what of the future? In this short debate I want to concentrate on areas where I believe the magistracy could play a greater role in enhancing the public’s faith in the justice system. There seem to be three main problems affecting the public perception of the court system. The first is the poor administration and slowness of the court system itself. The second is the public scepticism on the appropriateness of community-based sentences and the third is the representativeness of magistrates themselves. To tackle the first issue—the poor administration of the court system itself—when I first sat only six years ago I was amazed at the complete lack of computer support. The whole process in court was paper-based. Now it is common to book trials online, for lawyers and JPs to check sentencing guidelines online and also to call up maps and photos of locations for traffic matters, and things like that. Nevertheless the bulk of the process is still paper-based. I was heartened to note that in the new Westminster court house in Marylebone every desk position in every court has a plug and phone jack to enable a computer to be set up. Digitising the criminal justice system is a huge and complex task but progress is being made and the benefits are there to be reaped. I understand that 2014 is the target date for completing this task.
However, court is a team effort and each member of the team needs to contribute to the effective management of the case load. Digitising the system will reap big benefits but will never replace a properly motivated and appreciated court team. The Government need to keep that at the forefront of their mind when introducing sweeping changes. It has to be a concern that cuts to staff will hold up progress towards digitising the courts process and reduce staff morale, which in turn will affect performance and the public view of the effectiveness of the system. Magistrates can help by setting the tone of the court itself—making sure it is well managed, making progress whenever possible and putting the interests of justice first without cutting corners or delaying decisions. I believe that magistrates can and do help the process by using courtrooms when appropriate and being sympathetic to other people using their computing systems.
The next matter is public scepticism on the appropriateness and effectiveness of community sentences. I believe that this scepticism is exaggerated mainly by the press and that most people want community sentences to be used as much as possible. They also want them to be tough and effective. I read the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, to the University of Hertfordshire at the beginning of October and I agreed with his aspirations for community punishments. It is, however, in the role of magistrates that we see a lot of people who have reoffended while on community sentences but we do not see those who succeed and never offend again. There are, of course, some limited interactions with people while they are completing their community orders but this tends to be the exception rather than the rule. I would also point out that those who point to the ineffectiveness of short-term prison sentences when compared to community sentences in stopping reoffending only tell half the truth. In my experience, the vast majority of those given short-term prison sentences have previously failed on community orders, so to say that short-term prison sentences are ineffective is misleading.
Nevertheless, I welcome the development of community -based sentencing options, such as restorative justice programmes, neighbourhood justice panels, community courts, and other initiatives which I know the Ministry of Justice is pursuing. I believe that these are worth while and worth supporting. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, went into some depth on his aspirations for neighbourhood justice panels and spoke with feeling—I read it with feeling—about the potential benefits of such a system. As far as I can see, the system will be based on the approach now taken with youths and locally recruited youth offender panels. As I said, I share his aspirations but I think that it is fair for me to point out the potential pitfalls of such a system.
I believe that the courts and victims in particular could become separated from the sentencing process itself. At present it is rare for victims to be in court when an offender is sentenced, and it will be even rarer if there is a separate and subsequent neighbourhood justice panel meeting at which the activities of the community sentences are agreed. I accept that this is a conundrum with no easy solution that we also grapple with in youth courts. At its heart is the fact that there needs to be a level of trust and confidence between those who give the sentences and those who administer them: namely, the probation service and youth offender teams. Poorly administered community sentences can and do undermine both magistrates' and victims' faith in the sentence. Breaches in particular need to be brought to court in a timely manner.
I have visited a number of unpaid work projects over the years and have invariably been impressed by them, but sentencers need to be confident that the programmes offered are realistic, achievable and above all properly administered. I will add that I believe that localism is a good aspiration for the courts system. Even in London, most people regard themselves as local to a particular area and would like to see community sentences carried out in their areas.
I move on to the representativeness of magistrates. Magistrates, like jurors, should be drawn from the communities in which they live. It is desirable that they are drawn from all areas, and this is particularly important for areas where there is a high crime rate. Achieving this is difficult and I know that the matter is taken very seriously by the committees responsible for the recruitment of magistrates. Nevertheless, it is a fair generalisation that certain groups are underrepresented on the Bench. I would nominate Afro-Caribbean men as an important and underrepresented group. Having said that, I believe that Benches are quite diverse, but it is perhaps inevitable that those with the time to give to this public service predominate. The Ministry of Justice should play an active role not just in communicating opportunities to serve as a magistrate but more generally in promoting the role of the magistracy itself.
I have two simple suggestions to increase diversity on the Bench. First, adverts for magistrates should be placed on buses and tubes. They used to be, but I have not seen an advert for many years, and I have long-standing colleagues who came on to the Bench after seeing those adverts. My second suggestion is that there should be a modest payment to local magistrates. We are not paid at the moment, whereas local councillors, tribunal members and Members of this House are paid. I remember that the justification for starting to pay local councillors was precisely to increase the diversity of those who serve on local councils.
In conclusion, I have spoken about three areas: poor administration of the courts system, public perception of community sentences and the representativeness of magistrates. In each area, magistrates play a crucial role in the development of the courts system. All communities have the right to be confident that their local court services are delivered to a nationally consistent and high standard. It is of paramount importance that members of the public maintain their trust in the courts system and in the thousands of lay magistrates who sit every day to decide on matters that affect their fellow citizens. This debate was framed as a question. It is a genuine one and I look forward to the noble Lord's response.
Baroness Miller of Hendon
My Lords, as I am the first speaker after the introduction by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, I thank him on behalf of us all for bringing this interesting subject to the House, and for the comprehensive way in which he dealt with it. I first declare an interest; from 1970 to 1993, when I was appointed to the Front Bench of your Lordships' House, I was a magistrate in both adult and juvenile courts. I assure your Lordships that in those 23 years I had my fair share of sleepless nights after some cases, worrying about whether I had done the right thing by certain defendants.
We are all aware of the long history of the magistracy: both the lay magistracy and, since the 19th century, the stipendiary system. By performing duties as lay magistrates, non-lawyers have been one of the earliest examples of the so-called big society for centuries, and I have frequently explained to foreign friends that they are in effect a sort of jury with limited sentencing powers. The lay magistracy has long since ceased to be the province of the local squire, and no longer conjures up a vision of Tory ladies wearing flowery hats, although when I joined the Bench I was told—I ignored the instruction—that I was expected to wear one, with or without decorative flowers.
As the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, said, magistrates’ courts deal with well over 90 per cent of all criminal cases, as well as a wide range of civil matters. I will confine my remarks to their role in administering the criminal law. It is perhaps not quite good form for me to refer to one of my earlier speeches in your Lordships' House, but my maiden speech some 18 years ago was on the theme of law and order. The point that I made then, which bears repeating, is that the criminal law is there first and foremost to protect the public. It does this by punishing the wrongdoers—I will use the right word: criminals—and thereby acting as a deterrent to them and others from further offending. The possibility of rehabilitation is a very worthy objective, but one which perhaps all too often does not work.
The recent outcry from the usual libertarian sources that the penalties imposed on the looters, arsonists and rioters last August were too severe was typical of the muddle-headed thinking that pervades some quarters. In arguing for the rights of the hooligans and criminals, they ignored the rights of the people who had their homes, businesses and jobs destroyed, in many cases just for the so-called fun of it—in many cases, it transpired, by people with existing records of criminal activity that had hitherto gone largely unpunished.
The deterrent effect of the recent sentences will last only as long as the short-term memory of the potential perpetrators lasts: not long, I am afraid. What they will remember is that in future they should disguise themselves better from the CCTV cameras that, despite being decried in some quarters as an undesirable Big Brother device, did their job on this occasion.
The police have the power to require people to remove masks. This is not quite adequate. On four occasions I have attempted to persuade political parties on both sides of the aisle to make it an offence to wear a disguise at any public demonstration, just as it is an offence to carry an offensive weapon. To no avail, I am afraid, but I repeat my appeal tonight.
As to softer sentencing for the rioters and looters, I am reminded of the procession of mothers pleading for a light sentence for their child, who may have committed the most despicable offence, by telling the court: “He’s a good boy really”. Just like some of the recent offenders who to their horror, instead of a slap on the wrist, got a short—and sometimes not so short—sharp shock despite not having any previous convictions.
Community service orders are regrettably inadequately staffed and funded and sometimes consist of futile lamppost-counting operations. Your Lordships may have read in the paper only yesterday of a man who had to be punished with a curfew for persistently failing to turn up for his community service duties on Mondays because he had a hangover as result of spending Sundays drinking in public houses and watching football. Where an unemployed man gets enough money to get drunk in a public house is beyond me.
One problem we face is that things like ASBOs and referral orders, which we used to call probation, are in some cases regarded as a badge of honour. I well remember leaving court one day and a young man whom I had just put on probation was heard telling his friends outside that he had “got off”. I will not repeat what he said about the magistrate who was stupid enough to do that. That typical attitude is part of the problem.
The magistracy, both lay and stipendiary, as well as the rest of the judiciary, has a part to play in the big society. It is to ensure that law-abiding citizens who want to give something to society—big or small—can safely and freely go about their daily lives without fear for themselves, their homes, their possessions and their businesses.
Lord Patel of Bradford
My Lords, I greatly welcome this timely debate and add my thanks to my noble friend Lord Ponsonby for having secured it. I should declare that I am the honorary president of the Bradford Court Chaplaincy Service, which is, in my opinion, an excellent example of a court service involved in the big society, and I shall talk more about this unique service in a few minutes.
This is a very timely debate because, as noble Lords are aware, the Constitution Committee of this House is currently hearing evidence on the judicial appointments process. I understand that there has already been much discussion about the importance of diversity in this process and about how it makes our judiciary not only more representative of the broader population it services but ensures that the integrity and authority of the courts are sustained. This is also a very important issue with respect to the big society.
I am not a great fan of the term “the big society” as I am still far from clear that it actually means what it professes to mean. It sounds like the sort of thing that we are all involved in and suggests a model for society that is based on inclusion, but I do not see many plans for increasing inclusion. In fact, we are in grave danger of seeing a far less inclusive society as we continue to witness the retraction of the voluntary sector and restrictions in access to education. However, let us leave the political divisions aside for now and accept the big society for what it should be: a fair society, based on transparency and accountability in which everyone feels they have a chance and a stake.
On such a definition the role of the magistracy can be seen to be vital. What is the magistracy? Well, most magistrates are, of course, justices of the peace, like my noble friend, who act on a voluntary basis to administer the law in our lower courts, and they do this with the authority of being highly respected members of their communities. Can a single magistrate represent all of the local community? Of course not, and we should not expect them to, but in terms of the big society and inclusion, we should expect the magistracy as a whole to be accessible to all and not limited in how we regard respect.
Just as the big society is remarkably diverse, we need also to see a magistracy as a whole that is diverse. We should be accustomed to seeing more women and people with disabilities, more lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender magistrates, more black and minority ethnic magistrates as well as those who are younger, older, of all faiths or none, married, single or in a civil partnership and, of course, wealthy or poor.
If it is the administration of justice that we are speaking about, then we should ensure that there is also a justice of administration: a justice that reaches out to those who are excluded and actively brings them into the process and a justice that recognises that no single group can expect to make judgments in the interests of the community if it is not rooted in the community that it presides over. That is the real basis of respect and it is something that must be tangible.
I mentioned that I am fortunate to be the honorary president of the Bradford Court Chaplaincy Service, and I want to end by talking a little about that service because it says a lot to me about the place of a modern court service in the big society. The Bradford Court Chaplaincy Service was established as a charity in 2008 with the aim of providing a multifaith chaplaincy service to all court users, including people of faith or with no faith, irrespective of race, culture, creed, special needs or sexual orientation. It is a truly inclusive service working as an integral part of the court and providing vital support, without prejudice, at what is often the most stressful period in someone's life.
The service was founded by a former chair of the Bradford magistrates’ Bench, Mary Carroll, together with four of her colleagues on the Bench, working together with local hospital chaplains and community members. This is very important because it was an initiative that really came from the local community, first through the wisdom and foresight of the JPs and secondly through the involvement of other local community members. It was also supported at the time by the then Lord Chancellor, my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer, which shows how much government has a role in supporting the big society. It really is the big society at work. Currently, the service has two part-time chaplains, one Muslim and one Christian, and around 40 volunteers who come from all walks of life in the local communities. They work mainly with defendants, many of whom are unrepresented and often very vulnerable. They also provide a service for all the staff of the court services. They provide 10 sessions in the magistrates’ and coroner’s court and nine sessions at the Crown Court every week. Last year, the service saw approximately 1,400 people.
The volunteers and the dedication they demonstrate do not just happen; a service like this needs a great deal of support, time and resources. The big society cannot mean that everything is voluntary. Such an approach would not thrive as the court chaplaincy service demonstrates. The volunteers are supported by the part-time chaplains, who provide daily guidance, advice, training, ongoing mentoring and supervision. This ensures that the volunteers can get on to do what they do with confidence and skill and, of course, that confidence in the service provided by having a professional structure passes to those who use the service and those who refer people to it. That to me is the key to a successful big society approach in our magistracy combining the power of volunteers who come directly from the full range of local communities with the support of professionals and the wider structures of the courts and other partners.
It is too soon to judge the full impact of this service, but I have no doubt that in time it will also become an important vehicle by which a more diverse magistracy is drawn from the local community. When we see this kind of initiative replicated across the country, then we will have a big society. For example, among many of its achievements, one of the most distinct and valuable aspects of the service is its contribution to community cohesion. By placing the focus of the service on chaplaincy and creating a truly multicultural service, the Bradford Court Chaplaincy Service has made cohesion a reality. This is a service that can work across the communities of faith in Bradford and with non-believers alike. The volunteers command a range of languages and dialects, cultural backgrounds and understanding and with all this bring a unique perspective on diversity into the courts. I cannot think of many examples of statutory services that have such an eclectic and diverse make-up of staff. So I hold this service up as an example for noble Lords in thinking about these issues, an example that I hope I have demonstrated captures the true essence of what the big society means and how the magistracy can play a significant role in its development and realisation.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, when I was a very new, young and arrogant solicitor, I frequently appeared in the magistrates' court in the village of Ruabon in north-east Wales, an industrial part of Wales where coal was mined, steel was made, beer was brewed and chemicals were manufactured. I was always amused by the chairman of the local Bench, Lord Maelor, a former Member of this House, formerly Thomas Jones, the Labour Member for Merioneth. He lived all his life in nearby Ponciau, having worked down the pit as a young man. He later served as a non-combatant in the First World War. Indeed, he was imprisoned in Wormwood Scrubs for refusing to obey an order on the grounds of conscience. In court, he always went out of his way to identify the defendant who was before him: “Was his uncle a member of Capel Mawr?”, “Did he live on Gutter Hill or was it Y Ffennant?” and so on.
Lord Maelor taught me two lessons. The first was that order is preserved in a community not by the police, but by the people: the elders, the relations and the parents. By far the worst area for vandalism and crime in the area was the brand new housing estate, Plas Madoc. It was so new that only young married people or partners lived there. Though they had moved in from the settled villages around, there were no rules, no frowns and no social disciplines in their community. The second lesson he taught me was that he would give youngsters a chance, but would follow through his sentences by his deep involvement in the community and by his continuity in office. He was the one you would come back before if you breached the probation order he was always ready to hand out.
I have been greatly helped in preparing for this debate by a study carried out by Dr Jane Donoghue of the Centre for Criminology at Oxford, which was published only last Saturday, 29 October, as Anti-Social Behaviour, Community Engagement and the Judicial Role in England and Wales. I commend the study to the Minister. She points out that a central principle of the concept of the big society is co-production: how communities and individuals connect and come together to design and produce solutions to shared problems.
In the context of the magistrates’ court, the informal mechanisms of the past—that individual relationship between the magistrates and the community they serve—are of limited value in today’s world. It appears that training designed by Her Majesty’s Courts Service and the Judicial Studies Board in 2008 to support magistrates in community engagement has not been systematically implemented. Dr Donoghue’s research shows that for the most part magistrates’ involvement does not go beyond attending occasional meetings with their local ASB unit. The reverse side of that coin is that community groups have very little engagement with the courts. They live in two separate worlds.
Participants from all the 17 ASB units studied expressed their disappointment and concern that magistrates so rarely engaged with the local community, and argued that a culture change was necessary, where magistrates would be required to allocate time to listen to the concerns of the local community. Some said that the courts do not think about the impact of an ASB on a community, that they do not understand the effect of ASBs on certain areas and that the community has no confidence in magistrates or the courts.
On the other side, it seems that some magistrates worry about judicial independence. Dr Donoghue found that in one area magistrates discontinued an existing practice of making visits because they were concerned not to be seen to be influenced by local residents. In only one of the 17 areas studied was it felt that magistrates had a high level of engagement with the local community and were willing to talk to residents, attend local meetings and become involved in the life of the community.
The other problem identified by Dr Donoghue’s research was a lack of supervision. Ten of the areas studied had no experience of any kind of the supervision of court orders by magistrates or district judges. This was because there was a significant lack of continuity between repeat offenders and sentencers. It is highly unlikely that an offender in breach of an order will be seen more than once by the same magistrate or district judge. There is no formal system in place to ensure that an offender appears before the same sentencer in every court hearing related to their case.
Dr Donoghue’s conclusion is that most courts have not yet embedded into their structure the principles of community justice. Magistrates still see their role as adjudicators of fact and meters out of punishment and no more. If the concept of the big society is to have flesh put upon its skeleton, community engagement and problem solving in partnership with community groups and agencies should become a formal, standardised part of a magistrate’s training and part of continuing professional development for existing district judges and magistrates.
Nobody could ever question the commitment of Lord Maelor to his community, and the result was this: clear confidence and trust in the Ruabon magistrates’ court by the whole community. He did not sit above the throng; he was a part of it, and it was a pleasure to appear before him, as I have no doubt the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, would confirm if he were here.
Baroness Seccombe
My Lords, I spent over 30 years on the Bench, working with the most wonderful people. We came from a vast variety of backgrounds, all shapes and sizes, ages and colours, and reflected the community in which we lived. We had teachers, nurses, shop-floor workers, postmen, licensees, doctors, trade union officials, small shop owners—I could go on. We also had representatives of a vast number of voluntary organisations, including the WRVS, who incidentally also manned the refreshment bar. The experience they brought gave me a wealth of knowledge and added so much to our court life.
It is important to get a balance in every way in the make-up of a Bench, members having left any partiality at home, and then, working as a panel, to try to achieve a just and fair result. One of my cherished moments was when, as a known active Conservative, I was elected chairman. I was told the qualities required to be a magistrate were: a desire to serve the community; an ability to listen and come to a view using sound judgment; an ability to understand and to communicate; and to have commitment and reliability. Above all, I have always believed that good old common sense goes a long way.
I suppose you could say the magistracy was the original seed of the big society, having been in existence for hundreds of years, consisting of local citizens serving their local community. I believe that ever bigger and more intrusive government in recent years has sapped our strength and impeded anyone from daring to have imaginative proposals. Even if we had an idea, there have been too many obstacles in the way. For me, the big society means bringing decision-making back to communities so that local people have a real stake in running their own lives and supporting those who need a helping hand so that they can improve their lives. It means giving people the opportunity to bring colour and happiness to others less fortunate than themselves, while at the same time experiencing the genuine pleasure that can be had from joining a group of people who get things done, so contributing to a thriving community. Excessive regulation and bureaucracy have in recent years strangled initiative and enthusiasm and brought about a culture that the state always knows best. The big society is where we can all help each other as we try to do our bit to promote local well-being.
Over the years I have been saddened by the closure of so many courthouses. I was always told that the magistracy meant local justice for local offenders in a local venue, but court closures have removed that vital local component. Of course, I understand that in painful financial times difficult decisions have to be taken. My experience tells me that it will be the same people who always volunteer and who will spearhead the big society. So please, whether it is the magistracy or the big society, let us return trust to local people so that they can make their local environment work for them in a unique and distinctive way. Let us keep as little regulation in our lives as possible.
The big society is about service to others. It fosters responsibility and ever more closely weaves together an already complex and at times fragmented society. Service in all its forms is a most cherished principle that we must keep before us and applaud to the rafters. Let us ensure that we keep it small and bound to local communities.
Lord Dholakia
My Lords, this debate is timely but a little premature for my contribution. Let me explain. Earlier this year the Magistrates’ Association set up a public engagement programme for greater understanding of people’s views on the future of summary justice and the role of magistrates. I was privileged to be asked to chair this inquiry and it is right that I record my interest at this stage. I should also point out that I have served as a magistrate for over 14 years in West Sussex.
The terms of reference of the inquiry were fairly wide:
“To inquire into the role of magistrates and the future delivery of summary justice through engaging with experts and members of the public across the country”.
We have just completed this major exercise and hope to produce our report before next April. Our intention is to inform future policy development as affecting the magistracy. To avoid any confusion, let me add that “summary justice” is a term we apply to all forms of dealing with offenders other than in the Crown Court.
The evidence was gathered by a panel comprising the chairman of the Magistrates’ Association and three or four other national members involved in the criminal justice field. Local Members of Parliament played an important part in a number of consultations, with their overview of the magistracy in their constituency. The evidence-givers included local police, local victims of crime, local magistrates, professionals from intervention agencies, ex-offenders and local legal practitioners. The audience included the local public.
This has been a remarkable and informative exercise. Let me spell out some of the key questions that were addressed. Do the public still support the concept of ordinary—that is, non-legally qualified—citizens being involved as members of the judiciary in the delivery of justice in England and Wales? Do the public have confidence in magistrates? Do magistrates provide a good quality of service? What do we mean by local justice; is “local” still a meaningful concept in that context? What is the role of magistrates in restorative justice? Should magistrates be involved in pre-court or non-court activities, such as the administration of cautions and local justice panels, to deal with offenders? Should magistrates be involved more fully in the management of sentences? Should magistrates be more involved in the rehabilitation of offenders and reintegrating ex-offenders into the community? Does the make-up of the magistracy properly reflect society? Are there any barriers to achieving this? Should courts be more accessible?
Magistrates have existed, as has been explained, for more than 650 years, and we celebrated this in Westminster Hall earlier this year. In all these years, there have been many changes. At present, about 30,000 volunteers serve as magistrates. If the big society is looking for evidence of the involvement of volunteers, it need look no further; magistrates have set a very good example. We see people drawn from far and wide in our diverse community who use their local knowledge, supplemented by training provided by the Magistrates’ Association and the Ministry of Justice. They contribute to maintaining peace and security in the community and deal with more than 95 per cent of cases before the courts. In the present economic climate, it is not a service that the Government can afford to pay for if they have to pay for it.
Magistrates have been impacted by a number of external factors such as criminal justice legislation, which shapes the role and functions of the magistrates. Society being able to convey its confidence or lack of confidence in the decision-making process of the magistrates is also important. This was obvious when, after the recent riots, sentencing by magistrates generated a good deal of publicity. Let me in advance of the report give a flavour of what we found during our consultation. We expected criticism, but instead we found a good deal of understanding about the way magistrates performed their duties. Even victims and offenders had no criticism of the way they were dealt with by the courts.
The incidence and nature of crime may vary from place to place and from generation to generation, but it is obvious that crime is something that all societies have to come to terms with in their own way. We can debate the underlying causes of crime, but most research and consultations have tended to refute rather than confirm the causes of crime and the effectiveness of punishments and treatment. Magistrates tread delicately but effectively, particularly when the public and political mood continues to be conditioned more by tabloid reporting than by the considered way in which magistrates reach their decisions.
It is not possible to elaborate more fully at this stage on a number of our findings, but I trust that my noble friend Lord McNally will offer us the first opportunity to debate and discuss the report with his department. Suffice it to say at this stage that there was an emphasis in its broadest sense of diverting as many young offenders as possible from the criminal justice system. This is not a soft option but an entirely realistic approach to the strictly limited contribution that courts and prisons can make to reduce crime. We were told repeatedly that local justice should remain local in a magistracy that is representative of our diverse society. It is important that liaison with the probation service is enshrined in its duties and that its role should define the extent to which it should be involved in restorative justice, pre-court and non-court activities, the management of sentences and the process that rehabilitates offenders.
In conclusion, the time is right for politicians and others to secure a clear shift in the public's perception of crime and punishment. Six hundred and fifty years of history and more than 30,000 volunteers as magistrates are the envy of the world. Let us make sure that they are not ignored in the challenging times ahead.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, for instituting this debate. In the limited time that I have, I would just like to endorse the point, which was made very forcefully by the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, and others, that local justice is the essence of the work of justices of the peace. I have the greatest conceivable regard for the magistracy system, which has served this country for nearly 800 years, stands high in the reputation of the public, delivers the most extraordinary service, and itself is a demonstration of volunteerism that all recognise.
However, the centralisation of the Courts Service has brought about serious drawbacks both to the public and to the magistracy. It is no longer justice of the people, by the people and for the people. The non-reporting now of cases because they are no longer within the purview of the local newspaper has been a disaster for the greater punishment of someone being held up to local ignominy as a result of a local offence. That is almost gone from the town I live in. Indeed, every one of the four courts in which I spent most of my first five years in the law—Sudbury, Long Melford, Boxford and Hadleigh—closed, and justice is no longer accessible, geographically or psychologically. I realise that this is more a problem of rural than of urban areas, but I ask that the Government take on board what has been said in this debate and at least stop further court closures and expensive centralised court systems and go back, wherever they can, to the dual or triple use of buildings, which rendered the expense of magistrates’ courts absolutely minimal.
I have two other quick points to make.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, we are very short of time in this debate.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I was told that I have four minutes but will take less time if I can.
My first point is that unless the public understand the role of the magistracy, the magistracy will not be able to do its work as effectively as it has in the past. I fear that young people today do not by and large understand, largely because of the centralisation of courts, the role of JPs and the work that they do. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend Lord McNally will take back to Mr Gove, his colleague in the other place, the importance of maintaining citizenship education as a compulsory component of secondary education, because that is one upholder of knowledge about magistracy and magistrates’ courts.
My second point relates to the magistrates’ courts mock trial competitions that are currently being run by the Citizenship Foundation—I speak here as its founder and still president—and the Magistrates’ Association. More than 400 schools and 6,000 pupils are involved. It is a massively important element of the education of the public about the magistrates’ courts system, but it is in danger because of the withdrawal of funding.
I will say no more because I am getting serious looks from the Front Bench.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, like other noble Lords before me, I start by thanking my noble friend Lord Ponsonby for initiating this debate on what plans Her Majesty's Government have for the magistracy in the big society. It is a timely debate and we look forward to the Minister’s response.
I served for a number of years as a magistrate as part of the Coventry Bench and I have direct first-hand experience of the work, and the dedication to that work, of magistrates up and down the country. As my noble friend Lord Ponsonby said, magistrates, or justices of the peace, have been around for 650 years. They were “good and lawful men” back in the 14th century—and they were all men then—appointed to every county to “guard the peace”. Perhaps it could be said that they were the trailblazers for the big society, or its original seed, as the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, said. I pay tribute to the work that they have done and continue to do to this day. They are men and women living locally, giving their time freely, committed to sitting a minimum of 26 half-days a year, and making a real positive contribution to their community. They are delivering local justice for local people by local people. The former Lord Chief Justice, Lord Bingham of Cornhill, observed that the lay magistracy was a “democratic jewel beyond price”.
Noble Lords will be aware that all criminal cases start in the magistrates’ court and that more than 95 per cent are concluded there. At this point, I pay tribute to the work of the Magistrates’ Association in the support, advice and guidance that it gives magistrates. It was 90 years old recently and has made an important contribution to the development of the magistracy over that time.
The big society as an initiative is something that we hear less about from the Government today than we did at the start of their period of office. But we can all point to organisations, people and initiatives that make a welcome and positive contribution to local communities, and lay magistrates fit that bill wonderfully. Magistrates are appointed by the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Justice on the advice of local advisory committees. The appointments process is rigorous in its approach of selecting the right people to undertake this important work.
Having an appointments process that is rigorous and robust but also adaptable is paramount to ensuring that we make the best appointments. Can the noble Lord, Lord McNally, tell us if the Government are looking at the appointments process of both lay magistrates and the advisory committees to ensure that we have the best chance of appointing people who truly reflect their local communities? How are the Government engaging with employers and the voluntary sector to ensure that there is a steady stream of applicants? Are they working with, for example, local Sure Start centres to get younger women with children to consider putting themselves forward as magistrates? My noble friends Lord Patel and Lord Ponsonby made important points regarding diversity.
I am sure that noble Lords are aware of the Magistrates in the Community programme, which was started by the Magistrates’ Association. In recent years it has increased the public's awareness of the role of magistrates in the criminal and civil justice system. It involves magistrates attending schools, colleges, community groups and employers to give presentations and to discuss what magistrates do and how they are appointed.
Quite rightly, the Government want to make good use of community sentences. The local crime community sentence programme builds on the success of the Magistrates in the Community project and involves magistrates and probation officers together speaking to community organisations to deliver information on how offenders are dealt with when they have committed a crime that has resulted in a community punishment. When the noble Lord, Lord McNally, responds, can he tell the House what value the Government attach to these initiatives? What support are they giving them and what do they see in terms of further development?
Both the previous Labour Government and this Government recognise the importance and worth of real community engagement in criminal justice strategies. It can increase confidence in the criminal justice system and help to diminish anxieties about crime, although some would say—I should say at this stage that I do not agree with them—that this raises concerns about judicial independence, as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, told your Lordships’ House. It is an obvious and natural progression, and essential for enhancing community confidence in the justice process. Can the noble Lord also give some insight to the thinking of the Government and perhaps tell the House how he sees this being further developed? When does he expect the training material and other briefing devices to be fully reflective of this?
In conclusion, I am aware that I and other noble Lords have posed a number of questions to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and it may not be possible to answer all the points in the time that he has. If that is the case, I should be delighted to receive responses to the points raised in writing. I again thank my noble friend Lord Ponsonby for initiating this debate. We have had excellent contributions from all around the House and, like others, I look forward to what the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has to say.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord for the courtesy of those last remarks. Indeed, if I am to sit down at the right time, I will not be able to cover all the points that were made. However, I will write to all noble Lords if I do not manage to cover all the specific points. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for introducing this debate. As he knows, my first job in politics was working for his late father, who I am sure would have been proud to see the noble Lord introduce this debate. I am also grateful that we have had the experience of a number of magistrates, including the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, my noble friends Lady Miller and Lady Seccombe, and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark.
One of the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, was the poor administration of the court system. We are looking at that in terms of introducing new technologies as well as perhaps also bringing forth legislation at some stage to improve court management. I agree with him that courts should retain the personal touch; I take that point. The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, and a number of other noble Lords referred to community sentencing. He is right that I want us to explore more community sentencing. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, reminded us, if such sentences are to carry public respect they will have to be tough and effective.
Noble Lords referred to diversity. At the Ministry of Justice I am the Minister with responsibility for encouraging diversity. It has to be said that one of the encouraging things about the magistracy is that it is a whole lot more diverse than other parts of the judiciary. Other than make that point, I shall say no more. A number of good suggestions were made this evening. I will not make the usual point that times are hard and question whether we can afford to advertise on buses. However, I will take back the suggestions made by the noble Lords, Lord Ponsonby and Lord Kennedy, and others about how we encourage technology.
I hear what the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, and my noble friend Lord Phillips said about court closures. There is a whole variety of reasons why we have moved to court closures, including the inadequacy of some of the older courts and the increased use of technology. We will explore that, and I think it will be a factor in making the courts more accessible.
On recruitment and retention, I know that my honourable friend Jonathan Djanogly and my right honourable friend Nick Herbert in the other place are in close and regular contact with the Magistrates’ Association. Indeed, Nick Herbert is addressing the Magistrates’ Association conference on 8 December. However, I take the point that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has made. I will go back to the department to see how much outreach we are making. It is extremely important that we encourage as many people as possible to come forward in terms of encouraging diversity.
I was fascinated by the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, about the court chaplaincy service. In the big society, the churches, the religions and the faiths have a big part to play. They already have a structure of which we should make use. Two of the most fruitful visits I have made were to Norwich and St Albans, where the cathedrals are used not just as faith centres but as community centres. What the noble Lord described about the chaplaincy service seems to be an inspirational example of how this could happen.
The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, made two points. The first was his memories of the local magistracy. My colleagues back at the MoJ are aware that I frequently refer to Tommy Croft and Billy Quinn, although they are not names that have run down history. I was born on an ICI estate and Billy Quinn and Tommy Croft were two local magistrates. They both worked in the local ICI plant but, my God, they knew the community and their community knew them, which is always an interesting aspect of the magistracy. On Dr Jane Donoghue, I have not had the benefit of that study but I will certainly follow up on that. From what the noble Lord had to say, there are some interesting points about training and engagement.
We welcome the research referred to by my noble friend Lord Dholakia in his intervention. I think that it will help to inform our thinking on the future of the magistracy, particularly in relation to plans for developing neighbourhood justice. I certainly hope that when the report is ready, we will have a dialogue on it. I would welcome that.
It has been pointed out a number of times that this year is the 650th anniversary of the magistracy. I was pleased to be at the John Harris Memorial Lecture given by the Lord Chief Justice on this. As someone who is a kind of fake historian, I liked the idea of the concept of the King’s peace being set in statute in 1361 and the novel proposition that decent members of the community, not themselves lawyers, should be vested with the power to administer justice. That is one of the things which has been of lasting value to the magistracy. It comes from local communities and its strength lies in the fact that it is still the bedrock of our judicial system. My noble friend Lord Phillips referred to the mock trial competition. It is true that we have had to reduce our support for that. We still give it money and of course we also provide the court and staff for the competition, so we have not abandoned it entirely.
As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, intimated, the problem with these dinner time debates is that to do justice to those who have contributed, the Minister should really be given half an hour to speak, but I will cover some of the issues in writing. What I would say, however, is that my gut instinct, going back to Tommy Croft and Billy Quinn, is that as long as I am a Minister, I will take the role of the magistracy as the bedrock of our criminal justice system. Some of the ideas put forward in the debate tonight will be taken back and studied very carefully. What I want to say as well is that although we are looking at other proposals such as neighbourhood justice and restorative justice, they will be seen as complementary to and in no way undermining the magistracy. I look forward to a dialogue with the magistracy and I will study the suggestions that have been made in this debate, not least those on how we achieve greater outreach so as to increase diversity. Again, I thank sincerely the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for promoting a debate which has been extremely worth while.