Stop and Search

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind the House that I sit as a youth and adult magistrate in London and that I regularly deal with knife-crime cases. In concluding her Statement in the other place, the Home Secretary said:

“It is always heartbreaking and distressing to read reports about stabbings and shootings. I am struck by how often mothers of murdered young black men say that stop and search could have saved their sons’ lives. We owe it to them to heed their call”.—[Official Report, Commons, 19/6/23; col. 570.]


I too have spoken to the mothers of murdered young black men, and I have heard some of them say that stop and search could have saved their son’s life. But what I have also heard mothers say, much more forcefully, is that their sons were routinely and repeatedly stopped by the police, and that this led to a breakdown in trust of the police, so their sons felt that they had nowhere to turn when they felt threatened.

Very often in court, when I have a young man in front of me for a knife-crime incident, he says that he was carrying it for his own protection. This is a deadly cycle of mistrust and escalation, which has led to a 70% increase in knife crime over the last seven years. Knife-enabled rapes and knife-enabled threats to kill are at record highs, with some of the steepest increases in the suburbs, smaller cities, towns and counties.

The Statement says:

“Black people account for about 3% of our population, yet almost a third of under-25s killed by knives are black. Ninety-nine young people lost their lives to knife crime in England and Wales in the year to March 2022: 31 of them were black; 49 were white; 16 were from other ethnic minority groups; and three victims did not have their ethnicity recorded”.—[Official Report, Commons, 19/6/23; col. 569.]


This is a profound problem, which calls for an integrated and sustained response.

I welcome the references to the introduction of stronger community scrutiny and better data collection. These were first recommended many years ago. Can the Minister explain what is meant by “stronger community scrutiny”? There are different models of community scrutiny in different parts of the country. Indeed, there are different models within London. What do the Government mean by “community scrutiny” in the context of knife crime?

What about other repeated recommendations such as police training on the use of force, training on de-escalation and communication skills and proper data collection on traffic stops? None of these was referred to in the Statement. How many of the 18 recommendations by the Independent Office for Police Conduct last year have been fully implemented? The noble Baroness, Lady Casey, called for “a fundamental reset” of the Met’s use of stop and search powers. Is this Statement part of that reset?

Body-worn video cameras should have been a game-changer in the effectiveness of stop and search. They should have been, but have they been? Can the Minister say how many stop and search operations are carried out without body-worn video and why that may be?

I agree that stop and search is a necessary tool as part of a proper strategy, but we need that wider strategy too. Why is the violence reduction unit approach being used by the Home Secretary in only 18 areas, when knife crime is rising in communities across the country? Why has there been no new serious violence strategy for five years? Why is there no comprehensive action on youth mentors and support for early intervention?

Stop and search must be applied judiciously, proportionately and legitimately. It can save lives. At present it comes with the cost of distrust and alienation. It must be applied as part of a wider strategy to rebuild trust and re-energise policing by consent.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, we on these Benches look at this Statement in respect of whether it will produce the outcome the Government are seeking, which is, of course, a reduction in knife crime. Regrettably, I believe this Statement is one which ramps up the rhetoric that strong-arm actions will put an end to knife crime. That rhetoric needs to be tested against the evidence to see whether it works.

Police stop and search is an intrusive power that is used disproportionately against visible minorities. You are seven times more likely to be stopped and searched by the police if you are black than if you are white, if suspicion is required; and 14 more times more likely to be stopped and searched if no suspicion is required. The proposal in the Statement from the Home Secretary is based on suspects of violent crime and talks about the implications for the black community, but there is a danger that these figures can be easily misinterpreted. There is a difference between a few people committing a large number of offences and a large number of black people being involved in violent crime. I suspect that the reality is the former. Perhaps the Minister could confirm that when referring to the figures in the Statement.

More than that, the Government’s own research suggests that stop and search is not an effective deterrent in reducing offending. Operation Blunt 2, from 2008 to 2011, demonstrated that ramping up stop and search in order to reduce knife crime has little or no effect, but Operation Trident in the early 2000s demonstrated that where police and the black communities worked together to reduce black-on-black shootings, there was a significant increase in prosecutions and a reduction in the number of offences. Also, the Government’s own evidence, which they chose to look at in respect of the use of stop and search, produces at most a static response, but often, it shows that simply increasing the use of that power is unlikely to reduce crime. That was the Government’s own evidence in the research they commissioned.

On the one hand, we have the noble Baroness, Lady Casey of Blackstock, pulling in one direction, as mentioned by the noble Lord Ponsonby, in wanting stop and search to be based on collaboration, listening and engagement; and on the other we have this Government pulling in the opposite direction, by increasing the number without that necessary collaboration. So, do the Government believe, against their own evidence, that if stop and search goes up, crime will come down? Have the Government considered the lessons learned from Operation Blunt 2? Secondly, do the Government agree that if a community views police activity as unfair, public trust and police legitimacy are weakened?

Finally, how do the Government intend to ensure, as the Statement says, that “every community” is

“able to trust in stop and search”.—[Official Report, Commons 19/6/23; col. 570.]?

How is that going to be brought about? How can it be brought about without the necessary collaboration which was part of the Casey report? I would be grateful if the Minister addressed those issues, because without that certainty, it is more likely that the rhetoric will fail and we will not enable the desired outcome which all of us want, which is to achieve a reduction in knife crime.