Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Lord Pickles and Mark Field

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

The hon. Lady needs to look at the facts. Durham will be a beneficiary. The level of support it will get in terms of top-up—in terms of its actual growth —will increase, and that will give the people of Durham considerable respect and pride.

Let us just deal with some of these grumbles. Some are worried that the reforms might lead to polarisation and that deprived areas might fall behind. I can entirely understand—we have seen examples of this today—that people are reluctant to see change. It is always hard to let go of a security blanket, but we have been clear that we will ensure the hardwiring of safeguards for the most vulnerable in these reforms. Protections, including a system of tariffs and top-ups, will ensure that councils that start from a low business rate can still meet people’s needs. We will have a levy on authorities that see a disproportionate benefit, with a safety net for authorities that see their business rates fall significantly.

[Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

I very much welcome the principle of allowing local authorities to retain a proportion of their business rate. That is a very positive move. My right hon. Friend has made the case that he is being rather pragmatic, but perhaps he will go into a little detail about two areas where I am concerned he is perhaps being overly pragmatic: growth for inflationary reasons and growth where there has been a revaluation. As he knows, there has been significant revaluation in recent years, so why cannot some of that revaluation, where a substantial part has been in a particular local authority area, be used as an element of growth for the purposes of the business rate adjustment that is being brought into play?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Pickles]

The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point, but I would put it this way:

“Beveridge would have wanted determined action from government to get communities working once again, not least to bring down that benefits bill to help pay…the national debt…He would have wanted reform that was tough-minded, and asked everyone to work hard to find a job.”

That seems a very reasonable way to express it; indeed, those are the very words of the shadow Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, in his article in The Guardian last week. I am pleased that that approach was also endorsed by the Leader of the Opposition on the “Today” programme this morning, so frankly, I am not entirely sure that I understand the points being made by Opposition hon. Ladies and Gentlemen.

[Mark Field]

I very much support the idea of innovation and flair, and allowing for inventiveness, which will certainly apply positively to Westminster city council and all who live in the area. However, my right hon. Friend will be aware that, in the case of some local authorities that try to adopt the new powers, the scheme will perhaps work somewhat less well. Will there be any residual power in the hands of the Department or the Secretary of State to intervene where such local authorities fail to provide the lead that we would all wish for?

[Mr Pickles]

Local authorities are statutorily obliged to deliver a scheme, and that scheme needs to be approved, but we need to have confidence in them. We are talking about a substantial and significant effect of localism. We took the decision to give more powers to local authorities, and we need to be able to trust them.

However, hon. Ladies and Gentlemen opposite have been saying that their leader did not say those words. I happen to have a transcript from the “Today” programme. He was asked a question about welfare, and this is what the right hon. Gentleman said: there do need to be “big changes”, with a

“greater sense of responsibility in the system...Anybody who can work should work”.

We have to

“have sanctions in our system…I…see…a minority…of people on benefits”

who have been given a

“false sense of security…The Beveridge system was about saying people should be rewarded…for contributions.”

The right hon. Gentleman said that there should always be a safety net, and that

“In housing…need matters, but…you should also be rewarded with extra points…if you…work or volunteer,”

saying that some

“councils…are starting to do this…I am not against a cap”

on benefits. My word, how out of touch hon. Ladies and Gentlemen opposite are with what their leader is saying!

Local Government Finance

Debate between Lord Pickles and Mark Field

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Pickles]

My hon. Friend is of course perfectly right. The Opposition seem to think that it is magic money, but it would actually come out of people’s pockets through business rates or income tax. The reason why we are in this position is that the guilty people on the Labour Benches allowed things to get out of hand.

[Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend go into some detail for the benefit of the House about his commitment to the vulnerable through the transition grant allocations? I have had a cursory look at them, and they seem reasonably generous and seem to take account of the need to look after some of the most vulnerable parts of the country.

[Mr Pickles]

We have done three significant things. First, we moved the relative needs threshold to 83% from 73%, which makes a considerable difference and is far more than the Labour Government ever offered poorer communities. We then divided up authorities based on their level of funding, from the most dependent on grant to the least dependent, and ensured that the most dependent received smaller cuts. Then we managed to find an additional transitional amount to ensure that no authority loses more than 8.9%. I will have a further announcement to make about that.