Iran Nuclear Talks

Lord Phillips of Sudbury Excerpts

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, in answering the noble Lord, Lord Reid, I took the opportunity to make it clear that it is indeed that way round and that it is Iran that is a signatory to the Non-Proliferation Treaty and Israel is not. In an answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, on 30 October I made that clear. This is what makes it a different type of discussion with Iran about how it fulfils its obligations under the Non-Proliferation Treaty. We know that the area has its security difficulties at the moment. All our efforts as parliamentarians are concentrated on trying to ensure security there and consequently security for a wider Europe and wider international stage. What we are doing today is discussing that part of the negotiations with Iran that focus on ensuring that we can resolve the outstanding issue, which is to prevent the acceleration and movement of Iran towards the capacity to have a nuclear weaponry system.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

My Lords, like virtually every other speaker, I welcome strongly the Statement repeated by the noble Baroness, which represents a signal moment in the whole complex and difficult issue between Iran and the rest of the world. I do not want to labour the point, but does my noble friend accept that the fact that Israel is not a member of the IAEA or the various treaties gives a great deal of concern to the Iranians? I absolutely accept that Israel is desperate to preserve its safety by preventing Iran from obtaining nuclear weaponry. That is perfectly understandable. What is not so well understood is that within Iran there is genuine terror of an Israel with nuclear weaponry. I declare my interest as president of the British Iranian Chamber of Commerce. Does my noble friend accept that it is about time that we in the West exerted friendly pressure on Israel for it to come into the fold, so to speak, in terms of the world’s attempts at controlling nuclear power? Is that something that the Government will consider? In Iran, President Rouhani is currently taking considerable risks with his public opinion, knowing as it does that Israel sits there with weaponry and that we in the West do not even accept that it should be part of any of these arrangements. It really would be a positive step all round if something were to be done along those lines.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, clearly there are security issues in the area that go far beyond the discussion of whether or not Iran develops nuclear weapons. Clearly, though, the way in which the Iranian Government have sought to increase their capacity to obtain nuclear weapons has contributed to the destabilisation of the area. It is important that we continue our work with Iran in order to enable it, as the noble Lord, Lord Reid, said, to come back into the international world. That in itself would reduce instability and uncertainty in the area. Clearly, negotiations go on with all countries in the whole area of the Middle East and the Gulf with regard to security matters. There is no easy answer, let alone an easy answer for Israel or any other country there to find peace tomorrow. But what is clear is that each country needs to consider carefully what steps it takes to maintain its own security and whether those are reasonable or undermine the security of the area. Our attention is focused on the clear problem that has been caused by Iran working towards the development of nuclear weapons and that is where we should focus our attention, because we have the opportunity now to move forward in a constructive way. We need to seize that and not be diverted from it.

EU: UK Membership

Lord Phillips of Sudbury Excerpts

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

My Lords, in the light of what I am going to say, I should make clear that I am strongly in favour of our continued membership of the European Union. In the 1970 general election, the first one I fought, in Clacton, I was in favour of it. I was in favour of it in the referendum of 1975, I fought the first European elections in 1979 and I have always been strongly in favour of it. But the European project is in crisis. If we carry on as we are, we will find that the people of this country have ceased to support our continued membership, and that will not be confined to this country. The recent by-elections and the rise of UKIP here—and to some extent of the Scots Nats in Scotland—are very clear writing on the wall.

You may say, “What has that got to do with it?”. I spent a day in Clacton canvassing, partly for old times’ sake. I was shattered by the degree of hostility not so much to Europe or immigration but to the whole state of politics in this country. Millions upon millions of our fellow citizens feel that they are in some way outside the political tent. They feel virtually anonymous, civically speaking. They feel overlooked, ignored and anonymous. There is a terrible feeling outside London of the metro-centric nature of our modern society. Whether you are talking about this place, or the media, or big business, there is a feeling in the country—and it is evident in a hundred polls, and in a hundred perceptive pieces of research—that the ordinary person in the ordinary community is of no account, until someone wants something from them.

That is certainly the impression I got across the doorsteps of Clacton. I emphasise that it was not racist stuff. It was not anti-EU stuff, except occasionally. It was a sense of rejection, disaffection and disconnection. Unless we do something about this—and it is not easy to know quite what to do—and unless we attack this citizen ignorance and disaffection, I believe that the European project will become unsustainable. In a democracy, if the majority of those who are democrats cease to connect with a central tenet of their society and their democratic culture, then it is not sustainable.

I read the other day that the total membership of our political parties is under 1%. There are fewer members of all our political parties than there are members of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. In the Hansard Society’s most recent democratic audit, its single most powerful point was the sense of powerlessness on the part of our fellow country people. Of the 18 to 25 year-olds, in another recent poll—I think it might have been for the Hansard Society—only 23% felt fairly involved or connected with any political party. Under a quarter of 18 to 25 year-olds now vote. We have 3 million people who are not registered to vote. All in all, I believe that the health of our beloved country, and its democratic institutions, has not been as bad as this certainly in living memory but going back, I suspect, a long way.

I will add just one more point, which is something that we could and should do now, and that is citizenship education. Our society is inexorably complex. We know what complexity is in this place. Many of us cannot cope with the legislation we are supposed to deal with. Think of ordinary 16 and 17 year-olds. How are they supposed to relate to all of this? We do not help them. Citizenship education is collapsing, and so, too, Europe is perhaps the most ignored aspect of all. I hope we will take this issue and deal with it.

Gaza

Lord Phillips of Sudbury Excerpts

Monday 14th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I agree that the actions of Hamas in no way add towards bringing this matter to an end. Nor, indeed, do they add to the peace. In fact, the indiscriminate firing of rockets into Israel means this matter is prolonged and made much worse. However, it is important for us to hold on to positive moments, such as the one the noble Lord referred to: the moment when Prime Minister Netanyahu rang the father of the boy who was tragically burnt. We should also hold on to the positive moment when President Abbas said he would give all the support he could to ensure Israel found the kidnappers and killers of the three teenagers. It is important that we hold on to those small positive moments, even in these difficult times.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

My Lords, the question I ask may be provocative to some, as I take a diametrically different view to that of, for example, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. Therefore, I first make absolutely clear my total commitment to the right of Israel to exist in peace behind its borders, and make clear that the rights in this convoluted and awful area of the world are not all on one side—not by a long chalk. At the same time, I have been to the West Bank and Gaza four times in the past 12 years, and I have seen for myself the quite appalling circumstance in which the Gazans live. It is not just the Gazans; the people of the West Bank live in a state of permanent humiliation, with the occupying army of Israel, the check-points and all the rest of it.

I ask my noble friend this question. Nowhere in the Statement—it was quite a long one—does one find any reference to the overriding strategic injustice in the region. Israel is not content to exist within the borders set by the United Nations, not forgetting that no one asked the Palestinians; vast numbers of them were pushed out. As I say, I support totally the right of Israel to exist peacefully, but the truth of the matter is, for the last—

[A noble Lord]

Question!

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

The question will come soon. Does she not agree that the constant, tenacious determination of Israel to colonise the West Bank—one is told that nearly half a million colonists live in that country and often take the greater part of the resources, water and so on—is the casus belli in this situation? I know from speaking to its leader, Dr Haniyeh, that Hamas withheld any rocket attacks and violence at all for several years, but the extremists in Gaza had to put up with provocation that the Israelis, if the positions were reversed, would not contemplate. Is it not time we said to Israel that we will not go on countenancing this colonisation and, unless they stop it, we, in conjunction with other members of the European Union, will have to apply sanctions to them?

[Baroness Warsi]

I suppose the issue that I take with my noble friend is this: it is important we do not draw parallels between Hamas and the Israeli Government, or indeed try to describe them in a way where we treat them as having equal responsibility. On the one hand, we are dealing with an organisation that is considered to be a terrorist organisation, on the other a state that is a liberal democracy. Israel would be horrified to feel it was being judged by the standards of Hamas.

On the specific issue of settlements that my noble friend raises, we have repeatedly condemned Israel’s announcement to expand settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, including in east Jerusalem. We have consistently said that, as well as being illegal under international law, settlements undermine the possibility of a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and those who are working for a sustainable peace.

Israel and Palestine

Lord Phillips of Sudbury Excerpts

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I know the noble Lord has written to me on a number of occasions in relation to this matter. Like him and all Members of this House, I would like the Middle East peace process resolved. We would like to see a secure Israel living alongside a secure and viable Palestinian state. We continue to urge that negotiations are the best route to achieve a solution that ends the conflict once and for all. Secretary Kerry’s tireless efforts provide a real opportunity to achieve that goal. Therefore, we are urging both parties to show the leadership that is needed to seize this moment.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

Does my noble friend accept that the negotiations are doomed, and that Mr Netanyahu and his Cabinet know that they are doomed, so long as Israel goes on colonising the West Bank illegally and relentlessly? Is that not the reality, and what are we going to do about it?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, the situation on the ground continues to change. That is why I have stood at this Dispatch Box on a number of occasions over the past 12 months and said that this provides a unique opportunity to try to make progress. We support the discussions that Secretary Kerry is leading, and we urge both sides, who have said that they are still prepared to talk, to get back to the table to try to achieve a resolution.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Lord Phillips of Sudbury Excerpts

Friday 24th January 2014 Lords Chamber

There is only one way in which to do a piece of research that might answer the question before us, and that is to take two samples—one asking the question put in the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, the other asking the Electoral Commission’s question—and see whether the results are the same. You probably would have to do this at least two or three times because of sampling error and so on. Then you would know whether the wording of the question made a difference. We do not know whether the Electoral Commission’s wording would produce a different result from the question of the noble Lord—it might or it might not. What we do know is that between a question drafted by the Electoral Commission, which deals with these matters very frequently and is used to finding out the nuance of questions, and a question put together by the tyros in Conservative Central Office who drafted the Bill, there should be no choice for this House. The Electoral Commission is the referee, and to begin the passage of the Bill by rejecting the decision of the referee in favour of your personal whim is a disgraceful way to legislate. I support these amendments.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

My Lords, whatever our views about this potential referendum, I am sure that everyone in the House is united in the view that if there is to be a referendum, we must ensure that a success is made of it. Success does not mean yes or no, it means the number of our fellow countrymen who vote in that referendum. That will depend, first, upon the number who register under the new registration procedures that are coming in shortly and, secondly, upon the number who turn out to vote on the day.

I want to make only one point. I speak in support of Amendments 1, 11 and 32, all of which, in different ways, want the question to be put to be reworded. I should declare an interest as the founder and president of the Citizenship Foundation, which was established nearly 25 years ago when the understanding then, particularly by young citizens, of what was going on in our complicated democracy was patently inadequate for an engaged citizenry. I think that most will agree that things have become worse in the interim. For a variety of reasons, there is today a low adhesion to the political process by so-called ordinary men and women. I desperately hope that everything we say and do in relation to the Bill will be centred on that one residual need, which is to maximise the number of people who turn out on the day, if there is to be a referendum day.

I will not go into the difference between Amendments 1, 11 and 32. I will merely say to the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, that the question in the Bill does not have the optimum wording. It can and should be clearer. I do not particularly mind which of the amendments we adopt. The question certainly needs to be clearer for the sake of the public.

[Lord Grenfell (Lab)]

My Lords, I support these amendments very strongly indeed. I find it curious that, so far, not one word has been spoken from the Benches opposite in defence of their wording. That is rather curious, until you look at why the Bill is before us. Let me remind noble Lords of what the commission concluded. It said that the question,

“should be amended to make it more direct and to the point, and to improve clarity and understanding”.

Nothing could be clearer and more easily understood than that. However, it appears to all of us on these Benches that we are being asked to forget what it said and to go along, without question, with the wording proposed by Conservative Central Office, if that is where it emanated from.

Why do we have to do that? The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for whom I have great respect and affection, who knows this House well and, in fact, is a very sane voice on all matters to do with House of Lords reform, astonished me with the attitude he has taken towards the Bill. He said at Second Reading:

“Let us say that this Bill is imperfect and has got here by a most peculiar route”—

that is somewhat at odds with what the Government Chief Whip has said—

“but let us speed it on its way so that those outside this House cannot say that the House of Lords stood between them and having their say on perhaps the most important international issue of modern times”.—[Official Report, 10/1/14; col. 1808.]

We are not saying that they will not have a say. You will not find anywhere in our amendments a clause saying that there will be no referendum on the EU. It is a complete canard to go on suggesting that this is what we on these Benches are saying. I want to make it perfectly clear that the reason why one can support these—

Iran

Lord Phillips of Sudbury Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

Of course the noble Baroness is right. Supreme Leader Khamenei still has a huge amount of influence in many spheres of life in Iran. She is right to say that the human rights situation in Iran is dire. In 2012 there were reports of over 350 executions and 162 executions as of May this year. It has more journalists in prison than almost any other country. Opposition leaders remain detained in prison after two years. We have real human rights and other concerns in Iran. We are open to improving this relationship, and there have been opportunities when officials have met, such as during the E3+3 talks, but it is important, as the noble Baroness says, to remain cautious.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, would my noble friend not accept that it is precisely because of the permanent history of Iran and its human rights infractions that we should support the president just elected? He showed considerable courage in his election campaign and would be immensely supported in his undoubted wish to move away from the dark side of Iranian life if we were to restore diplomatic relations without preconditions.

[Baroness Warsi]

I understand my noble friend’s points, but the one thing that I and most of us who have been involved in foreign policy realise is that the situation is never black or white. There are always many grey areas, as is the case here. The new president has made some positive remarks, but it is important that they are translated into action. However, I can assure my noble friend and other noble Lords that we have contact with the Iranians. For example, last year at the Heart of Asia conference, as part of the discussions on Afghanistan, the Foreign Secretary met Foreign Minister Salehi in the margins of the meeting. There are therefore opportunities for discussions to take place, even at the highest level. However, in terms of restarting diplomatic relations and having an embassy—which, let us not forget, was ransacked in 2011 and where our officials and staff came under attack—it is important that we do so cautiously.

Palestine: United Nations General Assembly Resolution

Lord Phillips of Sudbury Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I had something of a conversion experience, I suppose it might be called when, like many, I went to Israel, the West Bank and Gaza for the first time in 2001. Up to that point I had read of the declining circumstances in Palestine, but I was and remain inexorably concerned about the security of Israel. For my whole adult life I have been an inveterate supporter of that country. I am a huge admirer of Israel in all sorts of ways, just as I am of the Jewish community in this country. It was not necessary for my noble friend Lord Palmer of Childs Hill to remind us of the philanthropic tendencies of Jews. In this country they have an unrivalled record of philanthropy. The tragedy is that a great country and a great people have so demeaned themselves and behaved in a manner that is not just contrary to international law but contrary to simple morality and decency that I genuinely believe that they are now on a suicide path. They are losing former friends and, I suspect, ordinary citizens across the world in droves. That is a tragedy.

I was so committed to the survival of Israel that the only time I have ever offered to fight for anyone was in 1973. I wrote to the Israeli embassy here, but fortunately for me the state of Israel was rather effective at rebutting the attack and I was not called up. When I first went to the region I could not believe my eyes. Anyone in the House who has not been there and who doubts the horrors of both the West Bank and Gaza should go. I am always surprised at how many of my Jewish friends have not been to either of those places, but in a sense I do not blame them because I think they realise how unhappy it would make them to do so. I have been four or five times over the past decade, and I always work with Jewish charities and marvel at how brave and brilliant they are. I would mention Ir Amin, B’Tselem, Machsom Watch and a number of others. Machsom Watch is comprised of 500 middle-class Jewish women who go out on rota every day to stand at the checkpoints and observe the conduct towards the humiliated and harassed Palestinians, and at night they put what they have seen on the web. What a restraint that is. A woman who took me to a checkpoint said that she was called in by one of the commanding officers. He said, “We are both Jews and we should not be arguing about this”, but then she noticed on the wall behind his head a sign that read, “Our task is to make life as impossible for the Palestinians as we can”. That about says it all.

I turn to the circumstances prevailing in Gaza. We hear a lot about Israel getting out of Gaza and the Gazans messing up their opportunities. Well, for the majority of those concerned, getting out of Gaza was very much a utilitarian decision. Maintaining 8,000-plus settlers in Gaza was simply beyond the scope of the state of Israel and was counterproductive. Today, the situation is appalling. I will read out some statistics that I have dug out. According to UNWRA, 38% of Gazans are poor, 44% are food insecure, and 80% depend upon food aid. Gazan poverty is the world’s worst, but the only one created deliberately. The blockade has caused 17% more Gazans to be in the poorest category since 2005. More than a third of them—and more than half the young people—are unemployed. Hundreds of factories stand idle and they produce exports only at the rate of 3% of the level before the trouble. Eighty-five per cent of their fishing grounds and 35% of their agricultural land cannot be accessed because of restrictions. Eighty-five per cent of schools are run on double shifts, because others have been bombed. Ninety per cent of the water is contaminated. It is rather ironic that my noble friend talked about the prowess of Israel in water production when it has decimated the water supply in Gaza. As a result, over 50% of children have chronic diahorrea. Gideon Levy, in an article in Haaretz in July, told of the way water is used in the West Bank as a tool of colonisation. He wrote this dreadful account:

“The Civil Administration is supposed to take care of the people's needs. But it does not stop at the most despicable measure—depriving people and livestock of water in the scathing summer heat—to implement Israel’s strategic goal: to drive them from their lands and purge the valley of its non-Jewish residents”.

One needs at this point to repeat—and go on repeating—that Israel is split from top to bottom. One quarter to one-third of Israelis, by other people’s calculations, are totally opposed to what is going on in Palestine. Would that they were sitting here and speaking on the side of all, or most, of the speakers tonight. I have met some of these people, and they are brave, because they are subject to huge pressure. They are called self-hating Jews, I believe.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, said—absolutely rightly—that our Government have employed double standards towards Israel for decades, and it has got worse, not better. Thank goodness that after this latest scandal of, I think, 3,000 new colonists in East Jerusalem cutting East Jerusalem off from the West Bank by the E1 block, the Foreign Secretary has at last come out with a firm statement. I have been in this House since 2008, and I cannot tell you the number of times that we have had statements from spokesmen from Governments of all persuasions which add up to nothing. There is never any action. My feeling is that action is not just in the interests of the Palestinians or of peace in the Middle East, let alone in the wider world, it is in the interests of Israel itself. That is what drives me on this issue and makes me unwilling to hedge about and avoid the charges of anti-Semitism which always follow plain speaking on this subject, I am afraid to say.

I feel passionately that our Government, having made a start at what I call plain speaking in relation to plain facts, should pursue that path and if necessary be independent of the United States, which is in a particular relationship with the huge and powerful Jewish community there, as the noble Lord, Lord King, vividly explained. We must be independent and do what we think is right for Israel, the Palestinians, the Middle East and the peace of the world. If we do that, a lot of people in Palestine will listen to us.

In 2006, I had a meeting with Dr Ismail Haniyeh, one of the hate figures, who is the leader of Hamas in Gaza. I have to say I was immensely impressed by the man. Unless I have lost all my touch for understanding the reactions of people, I was impressed. I spent an hour with him man to man. He is dying for an opening and for some encouragement because he never gets a dividend for anything Hamas does, except more colonisation and more repression. There is hope to be had if we as a country can be brave with our policy, and I hope that the Government will carry on from where they now are.

EU: United Kingdom

Lord Phillips of Sudbury Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord makes an important point but I do not intend to trade academic reports from the Dispatch Box. However, if he has the time, I shall be happy to give him a briefing on the economic importance of our continued membership of the EU.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister accept that the EU is hugely complicated and that by and large the citizens of this country have only a very partial understanding both of its status quo and of the arguments that now go on in this place? Can the Government do anything about reducing that gap in understanding?

[Baroness Warsi]

It is important that there is further and better understanding of Britain’s role in the European Union as well as the role of the European Union in the interests of Britain. However, there are certain matters that the public are entirely clear about. They were raised by all the political parties during the last general election, and they were that no further powers should pass to the European Union without the say-so of the British people. The coalition Government took that on board and it is why we introduced a referendum lock as part of the European Union Act passed last year.

Caribbean Nations

Lord Phillips of Sudbury Excerpts

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

On the second point, we have both confidence and hope: the Commonwealth Business Council has gatherings in the Caribbean and is very much on an upward trend as an organisation. As the noble Lord will know, down at the Heads of Government Meeting in Perth, which was attended by most of the Caribbean nations, there was a vast concourse and an enormous deal-flow generated by the Commonwealth Business Council. So I think that it can certainly help. As for direct bilateral trade between this country and the Caribbean region, it is the biggest chunk of trade of the whole area, taken for Caricom as a whole. It is, I think, on a steady upward trend, and it is one that we certainly intend to encourage.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

Can my noble friend tell the House whether there are plans to renegotiate any of the tax arrangements between this country and those Caribbean countries that are tax havens?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I cannot give a specific answer, but these matters are always under review.

West Bank and Gaza

Lord Phillips of Sudbury Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is certainly correct. Indeed, as I said in my opening Answer, that is one of the conditions in which we would recognise that if Hamas has changed by renouncing violence, and a new Government are formed, we would change our attitude to it. However, these conditions are important and we obviously cannot negotiate unless they are accepted.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, to follow up the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, is not the context in which Palestine now exists—one thinks of the forthcoming elections in a few months—that Israel is in military occupation of a large part of the West Bank, is continuing to colonise the West Bank and east Jerusalem at an alarming rate, and is attempting always to divide and rule the Palestinians by every possible means? What will we do about it?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am not sure that I share every nuance of my noble friend’s analysis, but it is certainly not in Israel’s interest to practise manoeuvres to undermine and delay the negotiations by the divide-and-rule process. We now have to watch what is going to happen next, to see whether this Government of consensus will work—we will judge them by their deeds—and to see how the pressure of enlightened Israelis, both in their Government and internationally, can bring them to realise that they will then have a body with whom to negotiate. We also have to see how the talks now going on in Amman, in Jordan, progress. We are putting a great deal of effort, as are other countries, into seeing that progress is made there.