Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 16th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I propose to speak in favour of electric dog-training collars and against non-stun halal and kosher slaughter, both of which could fall under the influence of the proposed new committee.

Starting with the collars, I should mention that I have worked with spaniels and pointers since the age of 11 and now have four German pointers over which we shoot rather few grouse on Rannoch moor. The years before the arrival of the electric collar bring many unhappy memories of dogs chasing deer and hares and being savagely beaten by my father and various keepers on their eventual return—only to do it all again at the next opportunity. But the modern training collar has changed all that and I cannot help noticing that those who wish to make them illegal do not seem to know much about how they work but are instead guided by a well-meaning intention to prevent dogs suffering pain.

I have looked at the sites of the four main organisations which wish to ban them—the Kennel Club, the Dogs Trust, Blue Cross and the RSPCA—and none of them mentions the process by which these collars do their job. They emit three levels of signal from three different buttons. The first button induces a simple beep from the dog’s collar. If that does not work, the next button produces a stronger buzzing noise. Only when that does not stop the dog doing what it is doing do you press the impulse or shock button. It is, of course, essential that the dial on the shock button is set at the lowest level necessary to stop the dog chasing whatever it is chasing, barking at a passer-by or running on to a road and endangering its own life and the traffic.

For my energetic German pointers, which are smooth-haired, the shock dial, which goes from one to nine, does not have to be set above four. For larger and more rough-haired dogs, the dial should be set at higher figure—but always only at the minimum required to have the desired effect. My experience of using these collars is that my dogs generally do not need to be given more than one shock in their lives. Thereafter, they stop whatever they are doing wrong on the beep and come straight back to me, wagging their tails. Of course, other breeds may be less sensitive, but not much.

In all this, we must not forget that most of our dogs are descended from wolves or wild dogs of some kind. The wolf or wild dog still lurks in them, however charming and lovable they may be by the fireside. We must also not forget the huge comfort which dogs bring to millions of people. So my view is that these training collars should be encouraged, especially for dogs which are going for a walk or run off the lead in the countryside. A dog killing a sheep or a deer brings much pain to its quarry, even if it is a fairly natural process, and the minimal pain felt from a training collar, perhaps only once in a dog’s life, seems to me to be a pretty good deal.

Finally on dog collars, it is worth wondering why no one seems to want to ban electric livestock fences, which can produce an electric shock some 3,000 times stronger than a dog training collar. I suppose the Government may be too afraid of the NFU to contemplate banning them.

And so, finally, to non-stun halal and kosher slaughter. I wonder whether the Government can explain why they are even vaguely thinking of banning electric dog collars through this new committee while tolerating the colossal suffering inflicted by these practices. Figures from the Foods Standards Agency tell us that in 2018 some 3.1 million sheep had their throats cut without being pre-stunned—one-quarter of all sheep killed—and 22,000 cattle suffered the same fate. Of course I understand that the Government and our elected politicians generally may be too frightened of the Muslim and Jewish vote to tackle this practice head-on and simply ban it. But, if that is so, why do they not require all meat sold in this country to say on its wrapping whether it comes from a pre-stunned animal? After all, cigarette packets are required by law to tell the purchaser that smoking damages your health, so why not the same for meat?

I understand that some schools and hospitals now serve nothing but halal and kosher meat, because it is so vociferously demanded by their relevant Muslim and Jewish patients. This is very unfair to our Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists, who are forbidden to eat halal or kosher meat, and it is also unfair to the rest of us who do not want effectively to be forced to eat it or go without. So I suggest that the Government re-examine their priorities in this matter, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply on these two points. Before he leaves the Chamber, I should add that I welcome him to his new position today—but I do not envy it.

Fisheries: London Convention—Withdrawal

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Thursday 11th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am afraid I do not have that detail. I had better write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

Do the Government agree that our fishing industry epitomises our capture by the corrupt octopus in Brussels and that our complete escape will be the acid test of Brexit?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, it will be helpful for your Lordships to know that the seafood sector employs 33,000 people and contributes £1,441 million to the economy. This is why we need to work with the fishing industry on the new arrangements to ensure that we have a successful domestic fishing fleet in sustainable waters.

Inshore Fisheries

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, what the noble Lord said is precisely what so many people are reflecting on: that unity in the United Kingdom is a force for good. I very much endorse the importance of vessels being built for the Royal Navy in Scotland—and in other shipyards, but I am delighted if they are being constructed in those excellent shipyards, which have so much expertise in their workforce, over many generations.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords—

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise for intervening, but the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, has been trying to get in for a while. I hope that we will have time to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Harris, as well.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I am most grateful. Will the Minister confirm to your Lordships that the figures he has given for the British fishing industry are for as it is now, in a state decimated by our membership of the European Union and the common fisheries policy? Can he give us any idea of the figures which pertain to the wonderful future when we have taken back control of all our waters, having left the common fisheries policy?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, our whole purpose is to ensure that we have a sustainable future for the UK fishing industry. It is the first time in 50 years that we will have been able to control access to our waters. That is a force for good because, in particular, it is very important that we have sustainable stocks for the future.

Brexit: Support for Farming

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My noble friend is absolutely right that this produces an opportunity. Whatever anyone’s view of what we need now to do, this is an opportunity to have a domestic arrangement for agriculture. As I say, we want to be one of the best leading agricultural countries in the world. The civil servants and officials who are working on this in my department are second to none, and they are working extremely hard along with Ministers on securing the best arrangements for British agriculture.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, will the position after Brexit not be that we will have at our disposal for our farmers and environment all the money that we give them at present through the incompetent filter of Brussels, plus any share that the Government choose to give them from the additional £10 billion per annum in net cash that we also send down that unfortunate drain?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am not quite sure what the question was, but I think it may be the usual one. As I say, it is really important that we use this opportunity that we have been given to do something that helps British farmers to flourish in an innovative way, that we have agritech and research investment, and that we do things that are good for the British countryside, which is one of our great jewels. As I say, both the environment world and the farming world should be working hand in hand to secure that for us.

Flooding: Somerset

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Monday 10th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I certainly do not disagree with that myself, my Lords. The noble Lord makes a really important point. Not only should we adapt to it, which is the substance of what we are talking about today, but we need to mitigate it as well.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords—

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord De Mauley]

I agree, my Lords. It is very important that we focus on the job in hand. The Prime Minister has asked the Minister for Government Policy to undertake an exercise to see what lessons can be learnt from our response to this extreme bad run of bad weather.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, to what extent has the Environment Agency’s action or inaction, particularly in the Somerset Levels, been influenced or dictated by Brussels? For instance, was the dredging of any water courses prevented by the EU and, if so, why?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, in a time of a great tragedy for people down on the Somerset moors, it is a shame to seek to place recriminations. We should be getting on with the job in hand.

Water: National Grid

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Lord made a valuable contribution to last night’s debate. The point I was making concerned the construction of new reservoir capacity, rather than taking water from existing reservoirs, and I think I should make that clear. I am not fully briefed on how the Barnett formula might apply in respect of the Bill which this House passed last night and any arrangements that might be made with Wales, so I cannot help the noble Lord on that point. However, I shall write to him if he will allow me to do so.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, is not one of the more obvious benefits of our EU membership the fact that we have been forced to spend at least £65,000 million, or £65 billion, on three EU water purification directives when there was nothing wrong with our water before? No one was getting tummy ache. Would not that sum now be useful for infrastructure and supply?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

No, I cannot accept the noble Lord’s premise. The Government owe it to all consumers to make sure that the water is of the highest standards and there can be no derogation from that obligation. The noble Lord is quite right that infrastructure costs money, but the water companies can be incentivised to provide just that.

EU: Sow Stalls Ban

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Thursday 19th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I have to say I share my noble friend’s frustration if not his anger. The Government have investigated the possibility of taking unilateral action and bringing in a UK ban on imports of eggs and egg products produced in conventional cages in other member states, but I have to inform my noble friend that, given that there are significant legal and financial implications in enforcing such a ban, coupled with practical difficulties in enforcing it, this is not a realistic option.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, are we not entirely capable of deciding our own standards about this sort of thing? Does this Question therefore not remind us of the hopeless fraud of subsidiarity, which indeed it has been since inception? Are the Government aware that under the EU treaties, although individuals and companies can be made to pay Brussels fines by the courts in the countries in which they live or operate, there is no way that a country can be made to pay a fine? Why do we not just emulate the French and ignore this and all similar mischief?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I can assure the noble Lord that the Commission is equally disappointed by the response of some member states on the egg-laying issue, which is why I am perhaps more confident that there will be a grip on the sow stall issue. It has already sent pre-infraction letters to non-compliant countries.

Food: Prices

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Monday 14th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am very grateful to my noble and learned friend for taking me back to my childhood in politics—names like Aubrey Jones and Fred Catherwood and prices and incomes policies all come back to me. Indeed, my noble and learned friend is right to remind us that there is nothing like a competitive market with a strong retail sector to make sure that prices are kept as competitive and as low as possible.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, can the noble Lord confirm the previous Government’s estimate that the EU’s agricultural policy costs each family of four in the United Kingdom about £1,000 per annum in higher food costs and tax? Would he also agree that since these higher food costs fall largely on milk, bread and sugar, they hit our poorest hardest? Finally, would he confirm that there is nothing we can do about this while we remain in the European Union?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I should inform the noble Lord that in actual fact the world price of sugar is currently higher than the internal European price of sugar. Indeed, the common agricultural policy, despite all the misgivings, at least provides some degree of stability in the huge volatility that there has been in global commodity prices. I cannot share the noble Lord’s view.

EU: Common Fisheries Policy

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for paying tribute to the campaign run by Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall—to which I pay tribute—but I would hope that the noble Lord would also pay tribute to my honourable friend Mr Richard Benyon, who I think has done equal amounts in terms of his negotiations on these matters. I cannot give the noble Lord specific answers to these questions at this stage, as he well knows, because we are still negotiating on these matters. We have had the proposals from the Commission only today, so I have not read them in detail, nor has my honourable friend Mr Benyon. We will look at those proposals, he will be negotiating on them next Wednesday, and we will come forward with proposals that will be good for the United Kingdom’s fisheries industry, for fish in general and for the sustainability of our fish stocks.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, given the success of the fisheries policies of Iceland and the Faroe Islands, and given the fact that 70 per cent of the fish in European waters swam in British waters before we joined the Community, why do we not take back our own fish management to the benefit of our industry? Why do we need a common fisheries policy at all?

[Lord Henley]

Oh dear. As I think I have said to the noble Lord before, we are where we are. We have a common fisheries policy and we are committed to renegotiating that along with the Commission, which has accepted that that policy does not work, and we are going to get that right. With the Commission and a vast number of other member states being on side, and with this country being totally and utterly committed to doing so, we can get that right. We will start that process next Tuesday and continue it as long as is necessary.

Agriculture: Pigs

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for raising his Question. He is quite right to point to problems that the pig industry is facing as a result of the rise in the price of cereals and oil and the fact that our welfare standards, of which we ought to be very proud in this country, are a lot higher than elsewhere. As regards his principal question about the grocery code adjudicator, we have made it clear on a number of occasions in this House and in another place that we intend to bring forward legislation to create a grocery code adjudicator. We hope that we will be able to produce draft legislation later this year and take things further forward as we discuss that draft legislation.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I am afraid it is the same old question, but it has to be because so little of our national law is now made in your largely redundant Lordships' House. The question is: to what extent are Her Majesty's Government in charge of aid to pig farmers and to what extent is it decided in Brussels?