Children and Families Bill

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, very briefly, I would be remiss if I did not welcome this amendment. I was directly involved for many years with children and giving children information, both in voluntary organisations and in the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service. It was clear to me that they did not know what information you had given them unless it was in an appropriate form. I hope that the code will take the best from some of the practice that already exists in some local authorities and CAFCASS regarding the form of information and the method of delivery to children and young people. Young children in particular can be involved very easily in many complex areas of their lives and indeed in decision-making if it is explained to them in an appropriate way by an appropriate person. I welcome the amendment but I hope that the implementation will be looked at carefully as there is good practice out there that could be used.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords, perhaps I may just caution—I think that the noble Baroness has just touched on this—that it is all very well asking children and young people to take decisions but if there is any doubt that they are capable of taking those decisions in their own best interests then it is very important to consult the family, especially when the family is a supportive one. Your Lordships will know that I speak from personal experience on this subject.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

Very briefly, we also welcome the fact that the Government have recognised that children need to be involved in decision-making that affects their lives and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, has said, this is in keeping with UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and was clearly set out in Clause 19. It was Clause 32, however, where there was an inconsistency in this approach and this was where we had tabled amendments to ensure that the clause also included the right for children to be involved in decision-making. It was this inconsistency that we were keen to address. We are very pleased to hear from the Minister that the Government are now prepared to amend the Bill to rectify that inconsistency.

However, there is still an ongoing issue about the wording in the code of practice and the regulations that sets out local authorities’ responsibility to involve children and young people in decision-making. Unfortunately, these documents still do not consistently reflect the framework set out in Clause 19. Therefore, although I welcome the steps that the Minister and the Government have taken on this matter, it would be helpful if the Minister could also confirm, in the spirit of the previous debate, that the regulations will be updated to ensure that those rights of the child are consistent throughout the Bill. With that challenge back to her, we very much welcome the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, I add my thanks and make two brief points. First, this will convey a message to the young people themselves. It is not often that legislation matters to the recipients so directly in sending a message. Transition is a very difficult time for people with special educational needs and severe disabilities. Added to all the difficulties that they have of movement of placement and, often, of changes to the personnel involved in their care, has been the suggestion that their age mattered. To them, it does not matter to the transition that they will make to the adult world, because they are not like everyone else who is 18; they are all difficult, but certainly not like most 18 year-olds. This will mean that, in the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, the needs of the individual will be met. That is a really important message.

I am concerned, as is the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, about the link to health and social care, because it simply cannot be avoided. I am sure that there will be issues around the code of practice. If you are admitted to a residential college because you have severe learning difficulties and physical disabilities, combined with the residential placement will be a series of health provisions. That will all be part of the package, so you have to have regard to all that as well. The Minister may say that that will come anyway because commissioning will be expected for that—but this is something that still worries a number of providers and families as well as individual youngsters, who need very specialist healthcare in their placements and are concerned that that might not continue beyond their 18th birthday, even if their education does.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I rise briefly to speak to Amendment 39CA, which has been put in this group. I apologise for tabling the amendment so late in our proceedings and for not taking part in those proceedings so far, or in your Lordships’ consideration of the Care Bill, which has now gone to the Commons. As on many previous occasions, I declare my interest as the father of a daughter with Down’s syndrome, although because she is now 32 that interest is not directly relevant to this amendment.

I tabled the amendment because I was contacted shortly before we rose for the Christmas Recess by some cerebral palsy practitioners who could not see how this Bill ensures continuity of support from child to adulthood for children with learning disabilities—hence this probing amendment, which I do not pretend is perfectly worded. It focuses on Clause 37 of the Care Bill, which deals with continuity of support when an adult moves geographically. It may have been better to focus it on Clause 67 of the Care Bill, which is described in the Explanatory Notes as being designed,

“to ensure no gap in provision during the transition to adult care and support”.

That is what the amendment seeks to secure. I would be very grateful if the Minister could confirm whether that is what Clause 67 does, or if and how that well known gap is closed elsewhere in this Bill or the Care Bill. When he comes to reply, I would be particularly grateful if he could explain what the words,

“or for some other reason”,

mean in Clause 67 of the Care Bill, on page 57, in line 36—and, again, on page 59, in line 1. At first sight, they appear to give wide discretion to a local authority not to meet a person’s needs after it has concluded that he has such needs. If true, that would appear to affect children moving to adulthood as well.

I have discussed this matter with the noble Lord’s officials. I appreciate that it strays somewhat into Care Bill territory, but I would be most grateful for anything that the Minister feels able to say about the position, in plain language. I look forward to his remarks.