India

Debate between Lord Patel and Baroness Northover

Thursday 17th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

I agree with my noble friend that growth is essential for reducing poverty. As he will know, Mr Modi has a record in this regard. What he is doing at the moment by investing in that growth, stabilising prices and investing in infrastructure is encouraging because that is how he is most likely to relieve poverty.

[Lord Patel (CB)]

I return to the point that my noble and right reverend friend Lord Harries of Pentregarth made. The poverty is related significantly to discrimination against a group which is a minority but is comprised of a large number of people: the Dalits. What will the British Government do to help India understand that and reduce the poverty among this group of people?

[Baroness Northover]

I quoted what the President said at the opening of Parliament in that regard.

Queen’s Speech

Debate between Lord Patel and Baroness Northover

Monday 9th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, I am pleased to be taking part in this debate following the gracious Speech, and I am particularly encouraged to speak more freely when I see the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in his place and know that he cannot answer me back or reply to my comments—at least not today. So if I do speak freely, I hope that he will understand.

Before doing that, I shall speak on two of the issues that are in the gracious Speech and in the notes accompanying it. The first relates to redundancy payments, particularly for public sector workers. We know that current statistics show that a quarter of the managers who have been given redundancy payments come back to some post or other, either as NHS employees or contractors. These are highly paid individuals and some of them were found not to be performing well. It is time that that was stopped.

My other comment relates to education. I welcome the fact that GCSE A-levels are to be reformed. Both the Royal Society of Chemistry and the Royal Society have produced reports. The Royal Society report, which will come out on 26 June, alludes to the need for science and mathematics teaching in both primary and secondary schools. It also refers to the lack of appropriately qualified specialists in chemistry and other science subjects in both primary and secondary schools. Unless we tackle the issue, the comments we have heard from universities and employers about the lack of appropriately skilled people in science and mathematics and the lack of economic competitiveness as against our competitors will not be addressed. I hope we will have an opportunity to debate that.

I turn to the issues about which I can speak freely that were not in the gracious Speech. These represent missed opportunities. We have had draft Bills, and consultations and reviews conducted by the Department of Health, and yet nothing has come to legislation. Perhaps I may just list some of these issues because I do not have the time to go through them in detail.

First, the Law Commission report on the regulation of the nine regulators in health and social care. The Government asked the Law Commission to look at this in 2011 and it produced a clear report earlier this year which will be of benefit to both the regulators and, in the case of medicine, to improved patient care. The Government said that they were committed to bringing this in and yet there is no draft regulation or legislation and we do not know when we will get it. This will stop any further development or improvement in patient care, certainly as far as medicine regulation is concerned, because the current medical Act is draconian, bureaucratic and not fit for purpose. I do not know whether the Government can change this situation but I hope that they will at least produce a draft Bill before the next election.

My next point concerns caring, to which the Minister referred. Yes, we now have draft regulation and guidance, produced last week on 6 June, relating to Part 1 of the Care Act. Again, however, the legislation, guidance and regulation do not address the key issue—the vulnerability of old people who are abused through being provided with poor care and the lack of accountability of those who provide it. We need legislation to introduce a criminal offence and a penalty for those who do not treat old people properly. Some 500,000 elderly people are abused per year—50 per hour—and so, by the time we finish the debate, 250 more elderly people will have been abused. Regulation is required to fix this situation and I am sorry that I do not see it.

Parliament has said that it would like to see the plain packaging of tobacco products. There has been consultation and the Government produced draft regulation. I now realise that there has to be consultation time and, after that, the EU will have to have a consultation period. Therefore, the timescale is so prolonged that there is a risk that the issue will be kicked into the long grass if the Government do not produce something before the next election.

We have debated folic acid—I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, is in his place—and it is clear now that the folic levels in the general population of this country are low. One-third of pregnant women do not take the precaution of having adequate folic acid pre-pregnancy. This results in more than 300 babies being born with serious neural tube defects, spina bifida being one of them. However, several hundred others have their pregnancies terminated because of such defects. It is time now to address the issue by putting small quantities of folic acid in flour. However, there is no legislation to enable this.

We have also debated mitochondrial disease. About 3,500 women in this country probably carry mutant genes of mitochondrial DNA, which accounts for less than 1% of total DNA. Diseases related to mutations in mitochondrial genes are severe and affect mostly the brain, heart, liver, kidney and nervous system. One of the ways to help those who carry a CBL gene mutation is to replace the mitochondrial DNA.

Three reviews that the Government asked an expert committee of the HFEA to produce, and the report from the Nuffield Foundation ethics committee, all said that there was no reason why mitochondrial replacement techniques should not be given the go-ahead. However, legislation will be required before this can occur in humans, even for the purposes of research. These are five missed opportunities on issues that we have already discussed.

I turn finally in one minute to—

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, there is an advisory speaking time of five minutes. Obviously the noble Lord could go beyond it, but in terms of courtesy to others, given the number of speakers in the debate, he might want to bear the time in mind.

[Lord Patel]

As a courtesy, I will not go any further. However, I have to say that NHS reforms have not worked so far and we should take the opportunity to look at the issues again. I hope that we will be able to discuss them further.

Family Planning: London Summit

Debate between Lord Patel and Baroness Northover

Thursday 12th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patel]

What plans do the Government have to support the education of girls in this country for them better to understand the value of family planning?

[Baroness Northover]

The United Kingdom is committed to the support of family planning in the UK. There should be, and is, comprehensive access to contraceptive services and supplies across the UK. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, is quite right that education and information is important here as well as in developing countries.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Patel and Baroness Northover

Tuesday 13th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patel]

My Lords, Amendment 249 is related to statutory registration. We have been talking about voluntary or statutory registration for the past three hours. I shall be happy if at any time the noble Earl interrupts to stop me trying to make a case for statutory registration for public health specialists because he has already made up his mind that he is likely to accept if not this amendment then statutory registration. I believe that the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, is trying to intervene.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, a great deal of attention has been paid to public health in this House and we very much welcome that and the efforts by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and others. We recognise that public health specialists play a critical leadership role in protecting the public from harm. The Government recognise the strong support for a compulsory statutory regulation system for all public health specialists. I think that that is what the noble Lord was going to say. We agree that it is absolutely essential that all public health specialists, including those not currently subject to compulsory statutory regulation—

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[Lord Patel]

I should like the noble Baroness to finish her sentence, because I think she was leading on to say professions other than in medicine or dentistry.

[Baroness Northover]

If noble Lords are happy, I will continue. I will be happy to answer any questions. All public health specialists, including those not currently subject—

[Baroness Northover]

Noble Lords will know that the Government have already announced their intention to regulate all public health specialists so that we address the anomaly whereby some were regulated and others were not. If that is the answer that the noble Lord was looking for, put briefly, I hope that he will welcome it.

[Lord Patel]

I welcome those comments. As I understand it, the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, is saying that the Government intend through secondary legislation to establish statutory regulation of all public health specialists, including those not in medicine and dentistry. I am grateful for that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Patel and Baroness Northover

Thursday 8th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

In response to the noble and learned Baroness, if I was in any way discourteous, I apologise but I hope that I gave the opportunity at the end for anybody who had further questions please to put them to me.

[Lord Patel]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her response. I think that the conversation, or lack of it, was unfortunate because not only did it not allow people to put their questions at the correct time, it probably interrupted the noble Baroness’s flow of speech and thoughts. Having said that, I am flattered by her compliments on what I had to say. However, she did not address the fundamental point when I speak for those who are concerned about public and patient involvement. She has said that the statute provides that HealthWatch England will be a committee. That is quite different from a statute which provides that HealthWatch England will be independent. Again, there is a vast difference. Also, in terms of its functions, there is nothing in the statute that says that HealthWatch England will have the power to ask for or demand information in the interests of patients and the public in order to demonstrate that the quality of care provided is not adequate. Although the statute recognises that HealthWatch England will have strong relationships with Monitor, the Commissioning Board and so on, it will not have the power in statute to demand that independently. It has the power in statute to work through the CQC to ask for that. That is what concerns people outside. Indeed, while listening to the debate I was getting e-mails saying, “This is not what we asked for and it is not what we want. This does not give us confidence that we will have the necessary authority to respond”.

The one lone voice in the wilderness, although it might have been loud, came from the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy. She suggested that this is ideal because of one very good chief executive in mid-Sussex. I wish we could clone her. For every one that is successful there will be 10 failures, and it is those failures which a good, powerful and independent HealthWatch England would be able to address when a local healthwatch organisation fails because the chief executive is not being supportive.

There are many issues here. If we are serious about giving the public and patients a strong voice, the Government must recognise that they need strong support and that they need it for a long time. Although I have not been associated with patient and public organisations in England, I have been involved with them on three different occasions. In fact, I set up one of them. I should say to the Minister that I thought I did a brilliant job. I gave it all the powers one could possibly give in terms of setting standards, inspecting hospitals, writing reports and criticising every service. It worked well, but it fell down because its strong support was withdrawn. It is important to recognise that if we are serious about giving patients and the public a strong voice, we need to give them status. We should not treat them like juveniles who do not understand the issues. They should be treated with the respect they deserve and be given strong support.

Unless the Minister is about to tell me that suddenly she is hearing a different message and that we can have a further conversation and another opportunity to look at this, I am afraid that, for those outside who are concerned about this, I will have to seek the opinion of the House.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Patel and Baroness Northover

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, in Committee we had a number of excellent debates about the role of local authorities in public health. A number of noble Lords raised concerns, and I hope that this debate will show that the Government listened very carefully. As a result, we propose to make a number of important changes.

I will begin with Amendments 120, 127 and 129, which are minor and technical amendments to Clauses 29, 30 and 31. These contain lists of local authority functions, including references to,

“functions by virtue of section 6C of the NHS Act 2006”.

The amendments change the reference to functions by virtue of Section 6C(1) and 6C(3). The reference to Section 6C(2) is unnecessary as it provides a power to impose requirements for how local authorities should exercise their functions, rather than a power to confer those functions. I look forward to an interesting debate on the other, more fundamental amendments in the group. I beg to move.

[Lord Patel]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 121, 122, 123, 125 and 126 in my name. I will also comment on the Government’s Amendment 124.

Amendment 121 covers the appointment of a public health specialist. It states:

“The individual so appointed must be a registered public health specialist who has a broad range of professional expertise in public health”.

When we debated this in Committee I made it clear that doctors—public health specialists who are trained in medicine—not only do medical training at undergraduate level but do several more years of training in public health before they are given a certificate of completion of training that allows them to be registered on a GMC register of public health specialists. The situation is similar for public health dentists; they go through similar training.

The problem is that non-medical public health specialists—of whom there are many—do not go through any specific training. Registration is voluntary. We will come to registration issues at a later date. The amendment states that those appointed must be registered public health specialists with a broad range of professional expertise in public health, which they must demonstrate at the time of appointment. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, will comment on that.

The noble Baroness was absolutely right to say in her opening speech that the Government had listened. I am grateful to both the noble Earl and the noble Baroness for the time they took to meet me, and to meet representatives of the Faculty of Public Health. I declare an interest as an honorary fellow of that faculty. As a result, the Government have brought forward amendments and produced a document, which I will refer to at a later stage, that is very helpful in identifying the role of public health doctors in a local authority.

Amendment 125 is linked to this issue. It concerns the appointment of directors of public health. It states:

“Any registered public health specialist or other person who is employed in the exercise of public health functions by a local authority or is an executive agency of the Department of Health shall be employed on terms and conditions of service no less favourable than those of persons in equivalent employment in the National Health Service”.

If we are to appoint directors and consultants of public health in local authorities and attract high-calibre individuals, we will have to make sure that they are not disadvantaged by taking a job in a local authority. The amendment merely alludes to that. Currently all specialists in the NHS, be they physicians, surgeons, obstetricians, paediatricians or other specialists, are appointed by an advisory appointments committee. The constitution of that committee is statutorily determined. The committee includes a representative from the appropriate college faculty. In this case it would be the Faculty of Public Health.

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[Baroness Northover]

I once again thank the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and other noble Lords for their extremely constructive engagement in this important area. I further thank the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for expressing his gratitude to the Government for the changes that have been brought forward.

Noble Lords have welcomed the moving of public health to a more centre stage. The Government have listened hard and have worked to address a number of the issues that have been raised about how this would work. We have brought forward a number of proposals, and I hope that noble Lords will be reassured that the objectives they seek can be achieved by these means.

We agree completely with the noble Lord, Lord Patel, about the need for high-quality, appropriately qualified public health staff, and it remains the case that appointments of directors of public health must be made jointly with the Secretary of State, who will be able to veto unsuitable candidates. To build on that, the Chief Medical Officer and the Local Government Association have written to local authorities on this issue and given advice covering the run-up to April 2013. This advice makes clear that external professional involvement in the recruitment process is the best way of assuring the necessary professional skills and that it should remain a central component of senior public health appointments.

My noble friend Lady Jolly raised questions about guidance, and she and other noble Lords may find the recent letter from the Department of Health and the Local Government Association reassuring. If they read through that letter they will see that on appointing to vacant posts it states:

“External professional assessment and advice provided by the Faculty of Public Health is a central component of senior public health appointments”.

It further states:

“The Faculty of Public Health provides essential advice on the draft job description, draft advert and person specification and we recommend you”—

local authorities—

“contact them at an early stage to benefit from this”.

There are a number of other points in the letter which I hope noble Lords will find reassuring.

Amendment 124 states that a local authority must have regard to any guidance given by the Secretary of State in relation to its director of public health, including guidance on appointment, termination of appointment and terms and conditions of management. The Local Government Association agrees that there should be a direct line of accountability between a director of public health and the chief executive. This issue was of extreme importance to noble Lords, who flagged it up in Committee, and we are taking it forward. It was also mentioned that the director should have access to elected members. We intend to produce guidance that reflects that, and it has already been spelt out in the letter to which I have referred.

In response to the concerns raised here, the Government have announced their intention to require non-medical public health specialists to be subject to regulation by the Health Professions Council. We will discuss the implementation timetable with interested parties and expect that the necessary changes will be made under the powers in Section 60 of the Health Act 1999.

During the helpful debates in Committee on the role of the director of public health we discussed how to ensure that directors have appropriately senior status. This is a vital new role—it provides local leadership on health improvement and protection as well as advising the local NHS on public health—and, in reaction to concerns raised, we have brought forward Amendment 152 to add directors of public health to the list of statutory chief officers in the Local Government and Housing Act 1989. This, combined with statutory guidance, aligns them with other chief officers, including directors of adult social services and children services. We hope that that reassures noble Lords and is what they were seeking. Furthermore, Amendment 128 is intended to give the Secretary of State the power to issue guidance on other local authority public health staff. I hope that that will further reassure my noble friend Lady Cumberlege.

The issue of appointment panels was raised and I can confirm that Public Health England, on behalf of the Secretary of State, will be represented on all appointment panels. Further guidance will be issued on the matter but, again, if noble Lords look at the letter to which I have referred I trust they will find it reassuring.

The noble Lord, Lord Patel, and others raised the issue of the requirements for dismissing a director of public health, and I welcome what the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said about the need for the right balance of responsibilities. Directors will, of course, have the protection of employment law, and local authorities must consult the Secretary of State before dismissal. This will encourage them to ensure that their case is solid and to deter impulsive action. The Secretary of State will now also be able to issue guidance, to which local authorities must have regard, on how the dismissal process works.

Ultimately, of course, it cannot be in anyone’s interest for the local authority to be required to continue employing an individual if it believes that it has good grounds for dismissal. The Secretary of State can express his views clearly and robustly, but it is the authority that has the employment relationship with the director and that therefore must make the final decision. However, having regard to what the Secretary of State has to say is obviously an extremely important safeguard. The local authority will need to have very strong evidence to demonstrate why they wish to dismiss a director if they are to carry through their duty properly.

I was asked an important point about an external person on the appointments panel and I have referred to the involvement of the Faculty of Public Health generally. We are actively pursuing the idea of an external person and obviously we will be extremely happy to continue to work with the faculty over this and other issues.

The noble Lord, Lord Patel, and other noble Lords raised the issue of emergency planning and whether there would be an improvement on what exists now. Certainly, in our view, the new arrangements will be a significant improvement on the current ones. For example, in a new pandemic, joint plans will be in place between Public Health England and the NHS Commissioning Board for the important testing and data-gathering that is essential to understand the nature of a new disease in the early stages. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is absolutely right that lines of communication need to be extremely clear and that working out exactly how this is to be done is extremely important. The department is well aware of that and the matter is being taken forward.

The NHS, Public Health England and local authorities will have joint plans in place to establish anti-viral collection points, for example, if needed. Public Health England, as an executive agency, will be able to provide scientific and technical advice and the NHS will have clearly understood mobilisation plans to respond to additional pressures on hospitals and primary care services. Throughout an emergency, the Chief Medical Officer, with Public Health England, will provide the Secretary of State with consolidated scientific advice to inform response and resolution. I trust noble Lords will be reassured by that.

[Lord Patel]

I am not actually that reassured. The point I was trying to make is that the current arrangements, as specified in the document so far, are flawed. They do not identify a lead person with the local authority who will respond to Public Health England’s advice and who also has plans in place not just for a pandemic or national emergency but for a local emergency. I gave two examples. The main problem is the lack of a lead person in charge locally. It might not be solved today but I hope the noble Baroness accepts that there is an issue here.

[Baroness Northover]

The director of public health has responsibility for what happens locally. One of the important issues here is the nature of the epidemic. The response to deal with that will be determined at the appropriate level—that is the key element in this. However, if the noble Lord and the Faculty of Public Health would like to engage further in discussions on this, I am extremely happy to offer that, knowing full well that my noble friend the Minister always has his door open. We look forward to further discussions to make sure that, where we feel it is working well but noble Lords need reassurance, we can address their concerns.

The noble Lord, Lord Walton, brought me back to my history of medicine when he spoke about the history of public health. He emphasised the importance of training and the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, emphasised education, training and research. I assure noble Lords that all training contracts will be honoured. We are exploring at the moment how public health trainee contracts will be managed in future and are engaging with those who are concerned in these areas. We will set up a stakeholder group of professional bodies, Department of Health policy groups, deaneries, employers and trade unions to develop a framework for supporting public health trainees. I trust that will reassure noble Lords.

I completely agree with the noble Lord that the question of whether directors of public health will hold honorary NHS consultant status is very important and one that we are well aware of. We will shortly publish for consultation a public health workforce strategy to inform decisions on matters such as this.

The noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, asked how directors of public health and Public Health England would work together. Public Health England will have local units to encourage collaboration that will be partners in local planning for public health and will help to join up the system. Public Health England will directly support the public health directors with evidence, guidance and best practice.

I have addressed the senior status of public health directors and the manner of appointments, potential dismissals and emergencies. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, includes the health premium in his amendment. I realise that he wanted to be extremely brief, so I will be extremely brief in reply and emphasise to him that we intend this premium to support the narrowing of health inequalities. I know—or at least assume—that his amendment is to probe and to find out how we view this. There will be a number of indicators to try to narrow those health inequalities.

We do not want to see anyone disadvantaged by our proposals for conditions of service, and employment law will apply to staff who transfer. Last November, in partnership with employers and unions, we published best practice guidance for staff transfers, followed by further guidance agreed with the Local Government Association. Shortly, we will publish a wider workforce strategy for consultation.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Patel and Baroness Northover

Monday 19th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patel]

I wish to pick up on one point. Can the noble Baroness reassure us on what it is she will keep under constant review? I understood her to say that the Government will rely on employers to ensure that these support workers have some kind of training. There will be no national training standards and, once the employers are satisfied that these people have some kind of training, they will be entitled to go on a voluntary register. As I understand it, the logical thing here is first to establish a national standard of training; then to ensure that those national standards are implemented; and then to allow people to register. If they register, the next step would be regulation. The first step is not immediate regulation but national standards of training and assessment that those standards are being met, before people can go through any kind of registration. What is the noble Baroness agreeing to keep under review?

[Baroness Northover]

I should perhaps explain that more precisely. This issue will be constantly under review so that if there are concerns in this area they will be flagged up. The Government will of course continually consider how best to respond and make sure that standards are of the quality that we need. The noble Lord is right: national standards of training are indeed the start. Then people are admitted to a register and so on. A voluntary-assured register would demand that kind of national level of standards in training. I hope that in that regard I can at least reassure the noble Lord.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Patel and Baroness Northover

Monday 5th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

I thank noble Lords for being so willing to receive letters about the areas that they are concerned about. I found myself retrieving what I learnt in my history degree, and I suppose this then becomes the Reformation. I will ensure that we write to noble Lords about these areas.

[Lord Patel]

I thank the Minister for her detailed answer. I know that this is a complicated group of amendments, each one referring to different aspects of public health. As I said in my opening remarks, it is extremely important that we realise that if we want a strong, reliable, effective, qualified, properly trained and accountable public health workforce, we need to address their accountability, employment status, registration and regulation. I did not put these amendments down lightly. They in no way seek to change the policy or structures of the Bill; they merely seek to strengthen the role of public health directors and public health consultants.

I do not know whether the noble Baroness passed the Warner test, but I listened carefully and I know she said a couple of times that the Government were looking at it and will produce a plan in early January. We will look at that carefully and carefully read what she said. I am very willing to engage with her because the public health faculty out there has great concerns. It is not concerned because it wants to be difficult; it is concerned that it will be asked to deliver something while its hands are tied behind its back. It would much rather come out into the open, to be told its status and to have that status put into the Bill so that it can begin to do the work that it is being asked to do. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I will write to noble Lords if it is not that wide a definition, but my assumption is that it is the wider definition that needs to be covered.

As a brief response to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, I can say that much of this will be in regulations. I know that the previous Government had problems when they said that they would put something in regulations. The House would say that it wanted to know while it passed a Bill exactly what it would be, but a distinction needs to be drawn between the kind of things that you want in the Bill, where there needs to be an architecture and structure that gives flexibility, and the kind of precision and more detailed explanation that you have in regulations. The noble Lord will be familiar with that. If we can take anything further and outline what sort of things might be in the regulations, as the previous Government also sought to do, I am sure that we will.

[Lord Patel]

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Patel and Baroness Northover

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patel]

I did not have in mind the scientific meaning of “research”. This is research of what is going on in individual hospitals. I use the example of Mid Staffordshire, where it was the research following initial incidents that made everybody aware of the extent to which bad practices were going on. That is the kind of research that local healthwatch should be involved in.

[Baroness Northover]

I take on board what the noble Lord says, and indeed he is absolutely right. There are various ways in which such problems should be picked up, but it is exceedingly important that that happens, and we certainly hope that local healthwatch will be part of that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, talked about engagement with stakeholders. I can assure her that there is ongoing engagement with stakeholders through a HealthWatch advisory group. The National Association of LINks Members and others are members of this group, and there are others. The noble Baroness also asked about the funding for transition. The Government continue to make funding available to LINks— £27 million during the transition—and as part of the HealthWatch development programme we will make £3.2 million available for start-up costs for local healthwatch organisations.

The noble Lord, Lord Harris, asked about conflicts between the CQC and HealthWatch England. We disagree that the Bill does not already provide sufficient safeguards to ensure the independence of HealthWatch England within the CQC. Obviously, in extreme cases, the Secretary of State has the ability to intervene if HealthWatch England is significantly failing. However, both the CQC and HealthWatch England have responsibilities that they must deliver.

The noble Lord also spoke about the relationship between LINks and local authorities, and expressed some concern about that. LINks have been funded by the local authorities and it is right that so too will the local healthwatch. The relationship of local health authorities and LINks overall has been a successful one—although I take the point that he makes—that has encouraged collaborative working between LINk and the local authority. The Government believe that if local healthwatch organisations are to play a full part in their local communities, it is appropriate for them to be accountable to directly elected local bodies that are better able to assess the needs of the local population. It would not be appropriate for them to be funded nationally, but I hear what the noble Lord said.

My noble friend Lady Cumberlege spoke strongly in support of many of these developments from her knowledge of the history of the past few years. She showed how we are trying to build on the experience of previous Governments to take this forward. However, she will not be surprised to know that I have some concerns about some of her amendments. Her Amendments 307A and 308A would prescribe certain aspects of the membership of the HealthWatch England committee. For example, Amendment 307A proposes that:

“The majority of the members of the Healthwatch England committee shall not be members of the Commission”.

The debate that we have just had illustrates why this is important. Certainly, we have sympathy with that point of view. However, we do not think that it should be in the Bill. It is best to put these in regulations, which would enable flexibility. Clearly, rules about the membership and procedure need to be consulted on and that will be taken forward when we engage over those regulations.

I told myself that we would write to the noble Lord, Lord Walton, about his organisation. However, it turns out that I am aware of a number of other organisations that use the name HealthWatch. The Government’s proposals mean that the HealthWatch we envisage will be unique as the champion of the patient and the public voice. I am not sure whether that totally answers the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Walton. Perhaps I had better write to him after all.

My noble friend Lady Jolly flagged up concerns about complaints. Perhaps I may reiterate that HealthWatch England’s role is that of a national champion of the consumer voice. Its purpose will be to bring that voice to the attention of regulators and others. Giving HealthWatch England powers of investigation of complaints could compromise its primary role in that regard. One of the developments introduced by the previous Government was to bring in a statutory framework for an investigation of NHS and adult social care complaints. It remains the Government’s view that complaints are best dealt with in the existing framework and initially at the local level. This provides a better opportunity for local organisations to learn from their mistakes and to improve services as a result. Where resolution is not possible locally a complainant is able to complain further to the Health Service Commissioner, the ombudsman or the local government ombudsman, as appropriate. The ombudsman’s functions of investigation are statutory. Therefore, we see no reason to duplicate. The structure set in place by the previous Government will stay in place and acts in that way.

As ever in this House there is a wide range of experience, particularly perhaps in this instance on what has not worked in the past. It is a great challenge to enlist patients and the public in making sure that standards are driven up. We believe that devolving to the local level with clinicians and patients more in the driving seat should help. I welcome the support of noble Lords who feel that these changes are a move forward, but I hear them when they say that there are areas that still need to be addressed. For that reason, we would certainly like to continue discussions with those who wish to feed in on this issue in order to make it as good as we can: namely, a system that more effectively brings to bear the voice of patients and the public, which has so far proved to be a difficult challenge not only to the previous Government but to Governments before that.

[Lord Patel]

My Lords, I was hoping that at the end the noble Baroness would be able to say more strongly how the Government intend to take forward today’s debate, but I am afraid that she did not do that, which is a pity. There was strong support for HealthWatch England and local healthwatch to have more independence. Her argument about a synergy between the CQC and HealthWatch England is not absolutely correct. Yes, there is a degree of synergy, but not in all areas, including: commissioning, as mentioned by the Minister; community care, where the CQC is not involved; advice to the Secretary of State on the mandate; and social care as it develops to more home-based care where the CQC will not be involved. HealthWatch England has a much wider remit than the CQC.

I have a rule in life never to oppose anything that the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, says or does and I will not break that rule now. She is always well researched and communicates her research well, but I have to say that her well researched argument supports the Government more and I am surprised that the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, did not feel able to accept some of her amendments. None the less, it is a halfway house that would give more independence to HealthWatch England within the CQC. If we are serious about giving HealthWatch England independence, it should be truly independent. It should have its own powerful voice for the public and patients. It should not be answerable to another body that will control it, fund it and employ its members. That is the great weakness.

The outside voice of the people involved in this work is strong. They would like to test their work in an independent way. Previously, they have failed because they have not been given that independence. Let us be serious about giving a strong voice to the public and patients. Let us give them independence and see whether they can stand up to the challenge.

There was a lot of support today but I am willing to continue talking, particularly with the outside organisations, if that commitment can be made by the Government. We will always have an opportunity to come back. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.