Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Lord Pannick and Baroness Berridge

Wednesday 19th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge]

I will respond to the noble Lord, Lord Alli. I am not seeking a cast-iron guarantee. I have previously been a lawyer, so I know how people can look at us, but there seems to be a case for some sensible, straightforward language in the Bill that could avoid—as we have put it—a situation in which small charities have to take discrimination claims to deal with that kind of behaviour, and it would provide that reassurance.

[Lord Pannick]

My Lords, I entirely understand the concerns that have been expressed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Berridge and Lady O’Loan, and others. My view is that those concerns are unwarranted. As I understand it, three issues have been raised. The first is the public sector equality duty, under Section 149 of the Equality Act, which requires:

“A public authority must, in the exercise of its functions, have due regard”,

to equality considerations. “Due regard” must require primary consideration to be given to other legislation—in particular, the legislation before us. I regard it as unlikely in the extreme that this public sector equality duty could impose a duty or even confer a power on a public authority to penalise a person or a body for declining to be involved in same-sex marriage, when the whole point of this legislation, and a fundamental feature of it, is that a person should not be compelled to do so for religious reasons. It would be extraordinary for a court to rely on a public sector equality duty.

The second concern was about Clause 2(6) and the exclusion of public functions, and that this does not cover the decision whether to opt in. There is a good reason for that. In very simple terms, marrying a person may well be a public function, as Clause 2(6) recognises. However, a decision to opt in or not is not the exercise of a public function. It is not, of itself, a service to the public but a decision whether to rely upon and maintain a statutory immunity given by this legislation. Any argument to the contrary would conflict with the content and purposes of this legislation, and so is extremely unlikely to be accepted.

The third concern that we are dealing with in this group of amendments is the suggestion that the legislation should clarify the meaning of “compulsion” in Clause 2(1). For a public authority to impose a detriment on a person for refusing to undertake an opt-in activity or to refrain from undertaking an opt-out activity would plainly amount to compulsion in this context. The reason for that is very simple: it would impose legal pressure on that person when one of the central purposes of this legislation is to protect religious freedom.

I entirely understand—I hope courteously—noble Lords’ concerns. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, rightly reminds us that we should be courteous about this, but let us be not just courteous but realistic about the risks and concerns that have been expressed.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Pannick and Baroness Berridge

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, along with the reporting and recording requirements in previous amendments, the new clause proposed by this amendment would keep Parliament abreast of the use of closed material procedures. It is modelled on the provision that was introduced when the control orders were introduced into our system. For the first five years they were subject to annual renewal because they were a novel jurisdiction. The same point applies here with the closed material procedures in civil proceedings.

In Committee, many of your Lordships have mentioned the impact that closed material procedures could have on public confidence in the judicial process. This amendment means that without a resolution of each House the powers fail, which is the appropriate mechanism for Parliament to act swiftly, should there be significant concerns about the understanding of and confidence in our judicial system. One of the agreed facts in Committee has been that this is a controversial mechanism to introduce into the civil justice system. It has been noted that Parliament would have introduced this despite the almost universal view of the special advocates that it is not to be recommended.

It is important to have a swift get-out clause to halt closed material procedures, which this amendment gives. Any mechanism that required primary legislation to amend the Act would take too long to deal with such a situation. I beg to move.

[Lord Pannick]

My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment. Nobody who has listened to or read our debates on Part 2 of this Bill over the past few weeks could doubt the importance or difficulties of the issues that we have been considering. Parliament may well decide that it is necessary to include these provisions in Part 2 but they undoubtedly are a departure from the fundamental principles of the common law. There is no doubt that they have a considerable novelty. It is essential that Parliament keeps these procedures under close review. Indeed, how these provisions are operating in practice will be vital to the balance between justice and security, which the noble and learned Lord the Advocate-General for Scotland has repeatedly and correctly in my view emphasised is the primary concern. An obligation on the Secretary of State to bring these matters back to Parliament for an extension of these provisions after a year will focus the mind of the Secretary of State and officials. It will give this House and the other place an opportunity to look at what has happened in practice. I hope that we will also then have the advantage—and it will be a real advantage—of seeing a report from the much respected independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, Mr David Anderson, on how these provisions have been applied.

I hope that I am not out of order in saying that I would very much hope that noble Lords might have the opportunity to hear directly from Mr Anderson, as we always benefited and still benefit from hearing his equally respected predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew. The noble and learned Lord the Advocate-General for Scotland might want to suggest to his right honourable friend the Prime Minister that it would be most helpful to noble Lords if Mr Anderson were able to express views in this House as a noble Lord and participate in our debates. Whether we hear from Mr Anderson directly or indirectly I strongly support the amendment.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Pannick and Baroness Berridge

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, this amendment to Clause 10 relates to two matters: open justice in paragraphs (a) to (c) and the nature of secret judgments in paragraphs (d) to (e). The amendment also bears the names of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and my noble friend Lord Lester. I will deal with each of these matters in turn.

Paragraphs (a) to (c) simply provide that the press would be notified of a Clause 6 application for a declaration that the proceedings may require closed material proceedings. Paragraph (b) enables the press to intervene and, if they wish to do so, they might need the services of a special advocate. A subscription-based e-mail alert system would be a simple, cheap and effective method of notification.

In the seminal case of Scott v Scott, Lord Shaw said that open justice is a sacred part of our constitution and our administration of justice. One of the main criticisms by the Joint Committee on Human Rights on the Green Paper was that it lacked any consideration that the interests of the public are served by the press having access to proceedings. In fact, the Joint Committee referred to open justice as the “missing issue” in the Green Paper.

This amendment is somewhat analogous to existing situations in our judicial process, such as where there is a media injunction. Of course, the media can make representations for it to be lifted. It is also analogous to the situation where certain newspapers intervened in the Al Rawi litigation. They were represented by my noble friend Lord Lester to argue the impact that closed proceedings would have on their access to information.

I am very grateful that various media representatives and lawyers gave evidence to the Joint Committee. Mr Cobain from the Guardian maintained that certain material substantiated allegations that the British Government had been closely involved in rendition that the disclosure process in court proceedings brought into the public domain for the first time. He said that he had previously been told by the Government that such allegations were conspiracy theories and that, without the disclosure process, documents, such as a telegram from the Foreign Secretary to various UK missions around the world explaining that no objection would be made to the transfer of British nationals to Guantanamo Bay, would not have been seen. He maintained that, under this closed material regime, the press would not have access to that evidence. Accordingly, the press, and therefore the public, would be arguably less able to scrutinise government actions or to know whether the press allegations by the press are indeed mere conspiracy theories.

During the consideration of these issues over many months now, it has been brought home to me that the public need to know the judge’s reasons—and, obviously, giving an open judgment is one of the main ways in which our judges are held accountable as it enables them to be scrutinised or even appealed. The disclosure and discovery procedures of a court case can also be a vital tool to convert a mere allegation or theory into established fact. Often those processes are the only way in which that information is made public. This amendment would enable the media to make representations—I emphasise on behalf of the public interest, not their own—to see this material and have an open trial.

Paragraphs (d) and (e) of the amendment are, I confess, probing in nature. They seek further details of the Government’s view on the recommendation made by the Joint Committee on Human Rights to deal with important questions raised in relation to closed judgments in a legal system that relies so heavily on precedent. One of my abiding memories from university is that of going into the law library for the first time and seeing all those bound volumes stacked from floor to ceiling. That shine wears off when one is trying to understand the complexity of some of the judgments. I am grateful to know that by the end of the summer the Government will have compiled a systematic database of the headnotes of the existing judgments in closed material procedures. It was troubling to the Joint Committee to hear from special advocates that they did not have access to secret judgments and that it could be merely by chance that they would find out about a case that might be relevant to the one they were involved in. Can my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace say why the database is not to cover the whole case being compiled, or was I the only lawyer who was occasionally led astray by an inaccurate headnote? That would also answer what I believe is an outstanding question: where physically are these judgments held?

Paragraphs (d) and (e) would introduce a mechanism for a party to apply for a secret judgment to become an open judgment and goes beyond the mere review of a judgment that was dealt with in subsection (g) of the new clause proposed in Amendment 67C in Committee on 17 July. I am grateful to my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace for saying that he understood the issue and would revisit the point about secret judgments when,

“the national security considerations have in some respects flown off”.—[Official Report, 17/7/12; col. 209.]

However, it is not only when secrecy has disappeared that there can be a need to open up these judgments either for review or possibly for appeal. There have been a number of instances where the evidence of a witness in a case, often an expert but sometimes a police officer, has been so discredited in its methodology or by the witness’s veracity, that other cases where that witness’s evidence has been relied on need to be looked at. Although it is a rare situation, unfortunately one has only to think of the conduct last week of Chief Inspector Anthony Tagg, who was found by the judge to have lied under oath in the trial relating to the deaths of three men during the riots last summer in Birmingham. It is an example of where other cases in which he has given evidence may have to be looked at. It can only support confidence in our justice system if, as the amendment outlines, a party is allowed in these circumstances to request the court to look at the secret part of a judgment. I hope that the Government will support both aspects of the amendment as I believe that it puts the missing element of open justice firmly back into the Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Pannick]

My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment and I support what the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, has said. It is often the case, when courts consider whether to go into closed proceedings in other contexts, such as in family law cases or in those that concern confidential personal information, that the persons who object are representatives of the media. The litigant who is adversely affected may be playing only a very limited role in the proceedings or they may have reasons of their own for not objecting to the closed hearing. It will often assist the court in deciding whether to go into a closed procedure if it hears from representatives of the media as to the disadvantages of doing so and the relevant law in respect of the matter. But the media can make those representations only if they are notified of the possibility of the court moving into a closed session.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, has said, the amendment addresses a second topic, one that this Committee addressed briefly last Tuesday night, and that is the vital need to ensure that there is the possibility of a periodic review of whether a judgment needs to remain confidential. The concern is that there will be, as there already is in relation to control order decisions and TPIM cases, a body of case law, the contents of which is known only to a very few people. The case law is known to officials, to counsel who have represented the Home Office, to counsel who have acted as special advocates and to some judges. However those counsel and those judges may be aware only of the decisions in the cases in which they have played a part, yet this case law may contain information which is very important to the determination of later cases.

This is a very real problem for a common law system in that some of the case law is secret. I understand that it has been suggested—only partly in jest—that a set of secret law reports should be published, a subscription to which could only be bought by those with security clearance. It may be necessary—this is what we are debating in relation to Part 2—for Parliament to depart from basic principles of fairness and openness, but it is then vital for us to build express procedural safeguards into this Bill, safeguards that do not undermine the maintenance of secrecy.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, just expressed the view that it is unnecessary for Parliament to tell the judges how to protect fairness. He is right. All the judges in this area have been and continue to be concerned about maintaining fairness in the procedures in control order cases and in TPIM cases. Nevertheless, I consider it is very important that Parliament should do all that it can to set out clearly, for the avoidance of doubt, the existence of vital safeguards in this area, both to give confidence to the individuals concerned and to ensure that we avoid so far as possible the inevitable expensive and protracted litigation. Two of these vital protections are set out in this amendment—that the press should have notification of a proposal to go into closed procedure and that there must be an opportunity periodically to review whether to maintain the secrecy of a closed judgment after a period of time.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Pannick and Baroness Berridge

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 88, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has said, is in my name. I concur with much of his reasoning and concerns about the recording and reporting of these matters. The amendments would enable Parliament to monitor the use of these unusual court proceedings. I would be grateful if my noble friend would say whether the response given in the other place to the question from Mr Sadiq Khan still stands, as the Government have very helpfully agreed to compile a central database of closed material procedures for the use of special advocates. If the Government are able to compile that database for special advocates, could they not also do so for Parliament?

If the closed material procedures are granted by Parliament, it would be on the basis of there being a very small number of cases. This amendment would enable Parliament to monitor whether that is indeed the case. Unfortunately, things that are intended to be rare have a tendency to creep, as apparently Lord Williams of Mostyn assured your Lordships’ House in 1997 in relation to the introduction of SIAC. The closed material procedures are now used in a large number of statutory situations—I think about 14 different jurisdictions. I expect there will need to be some agreement as to how frequently a report is laid but it is important with such a closed system that as much information as possible comes into the public domain, particularly information that can be assessed by Parliament. Although not the subject of this amendment, the same argument applies to the use of closed material procedures generally, so that Parliament would know how often they are applied for, granted, appealed and, in particular, successfully appealed, as well as which government departments are making use of the procedures and under which legislative regime they are being used. I also believe that there could be useful comparative statistics on how often appeals are brought in jurisdictions where appeal is allowed on a matter of law alone compared to on a matter of fact, as in the civil proceedings considered under this Bill.

Amendment 88 adds the requirement for the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation to bring a report to Parliament, which I understand would be similar to the role of the independent reviewer in relation to control orders and now TPIMs. It could also perhaps provide a means for the independent reviewer to receive the continuing views of the special advocates, which have been such a concern to many people including the Lord Chancellor. Unless someone independent reads all these closed judgments in an area, I do not know how we will know if there are inconsistent decisions and perhaps cases that have been decided without knowledge of a previous precedent due to the fact that these are secret judgments. Some of that risk will of course now be averted by the new central database that I have mentioned, which will be available to special advocates. However, it will not be completely averted, in my view, due to the nature of the system and not in a way that Parliament can be assured of the integrity of the body of these decisions. The independent reviewer of terrorism legislation might even need a method of passing cases that he or she is concerned about to be reviewed by the court for the reasons I have outlined.

I believe it is very much in the Government’s interests to have as much information in the public domain and as much scrutiny as possible of a closed system. I also hope, along with the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, that there will be good news on Report on the principle behind this amendment.

[Lord Pannick]

My Lords, I added my name to Amendment 88 and entirely agree with what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge. The noble and learned Lord the Advocate-General for Scotland said earlier this evening that CMPs are “second-best justice”. If we are to have CMPs as a necessary but regrettable diminution in the quality of justice, and if the quality of justice is to be strained in this way, with all the damage that is done to fair and open justice, it is essential that the legislation contains adequate provisions for reporting and review so that this new procedure can be carefully monitored.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pannick]

My Lords, I, too, support the amendment, and not just because in principle it is right that judgments should be closed for as limited a time as necessary. There is also a very real practical consideration that, despite what the noble Lord, Lord McNally, said in his Answer that the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, quoted, there have been examples of closed judgments that contained statements of principle that were not in open judgments or that contained statements relevant to other cases or potential cases. The difficulty is that those practising in this area who represent individual litigants do not have access to this body of jurisprudence. If we are to create this closed material procedure, we have to recognise that we are creating a body of case law that is not generally available. That is a very real problem for the rule of law. One way in which to address the problem is to minimise as far as we reasonably can the length of time for which a closed judgment is not generally available. For that reason, in addition to the reasons already given, I support the amendment.

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, I, too, support the amendment and am aware that part of this issue is covered by a later amendment in a separate group. I want to raise the very practical point that leads on from the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. From hearing evidence in the Joint Committee on Human Rights, a very basic question arose: where, physically, are these judgments?

Normally, you can go into a law library and they are all there. Special advocates and other people just seem to be unaware of where, physically, this body of case law is stored. We know from the answer to Mr Sadiq Khan that it seems not to be collated centrally. It is a very important question. It sounds incredibly basic, but we need to know where, physically, these judgments are stored.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Pannick and Baroness Berridge

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, I support two particular aspects of this group of amendments. Following the comments of my noble friend Lady Williams, I, too, agree with the wording in the Bill in relation to the duties and responsibilities of the special advocates. In fact, while the Joint Committee on Human Rights was taking evidence, with the special advocates and lawyers in front of us, questions kept coming up about what their professional duties were to their client, with whom they could not communicate. It seemed to me, as a former lawyer, that it was perhaps one of the safest areas in many respects to have a client because there was no way that you could be sued for negligence when you could not communicate with the person whom you were supposed to be representing. It is a very unusual situation to put a professional in. We asked whether the Bar Council had given any guidance to advocates in this situation. I, too, found it very harsh for the Bill to say that the advocate is not responsible for the interests of the person whom they represent and I think that some more positive duty in the Bill would assist.

I also support proposed subsection (7) in Amendment 67, although it is not clear because it is an extension of the professional duties. Normally it is very clear to lawyers that they can withdraw from a case in certain situations, which are outlined in professional guidance. It is not clear whether a special advocate would have the same ability to withdraw from proceedings. I was always amazed that you could often be faced with two lever-arch files of A4 paper that contained the case papers, and when you got to trial, the trial boiled down to one or two key issues. In a particular case the issues may boil down to information as to where the claimant was on a particular day, and that becomes central to the case. So there may be one or two determining facts in a case. An advocate might be faced with information from the police and security services putting a connotation on certain facts, and be unable to turn to their client and say, “Where were you in August?”. In those circumstances the advocate might feel professionally that they could not represent the client’s interests properly. It is a corollary, I believe, of the situation that I raised in relation to previous amendments. In certain cases the judge may be in that situation as well, where one or two facts are so key to a case that, without hearing the claimant’s explanation of those facts, the case cannot be determined fairly. So this subsection gives the special advocate clarity that they can, in those circumstances, withdraw from the case. Therefore I support my noble friend’s amendments.

[Lord Pannick]

My Lords, my answer to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, is that regrettably Clause 8(4) is wholly accurate because the nature of the special advocates and the task that they are required to perform is that they are not responsible to the individual in whose case they are appearing. They are not responsible because they cannot tell the person concerned the information that is known to them, as the lawyer in the case. They cannot ask the individual to comment on that information or to give instructions to them on that information. If they speak to the individual concerned, what the individual tells them—the special advocate—may be wholly irrelevant to the case, unknown to the client.

Although the special advocate system is made available as being better than no representation at all, it is inherently and fundamentally unfair in that the individual concerned does not know the nature of the case against them; and nothing that the special advocate does, however competent and industrious they are, can affect that. I therefore think that there is no advantage in seeking to supply in the Bill what would be a fig leaf to conceal the reality of the situation; and the reality of the situation is precisely as it is put in Clause 8(4).