Defence Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Palmer of Childs Hill and Lord Judd

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I speak in support of these amendments. The point that has already been made cannot be stressed too strongly—namely, that rules, regulations and definitions that have been adequate to date need to be reviewed in view of the immense and unforeseen scale of development in modern warfare. It would be irresponsible to assume that the current rules and definitions, which were drawn up in the past, respond adequately to the new realities.

I have absolutely no doubt that the service in which I was privileged to serve, the RAF, is fully committed at the most senior levels to implementing not just what the law says but the spirit of the law. I am sure that that is the case. If it is the case, I cannot see how reviewing the sufficiency and adequacy of existing legislation can do anything but strengthen its position. It is good that these points have been brought forward.

It is very difficult to share my next point with the Committee, as it is not clear whether the issue should be raised now or on later amendments. Reference has been made to the overlap in this regard. I am deeply concerned about whether we as legislators are taking the psychological implications of the new developments seriously enough. I am sure some of those involved in the operations are taking them very seriously. If I put it crudely, it is not out of any hostility to the people concerned; it is just to try to bring home the starkness of the reality with which we are dealing.

I was talking the other day with a good friend whose son has just got a very good engineering degree. What does he want to do with his engineering degree? His ambition is to work in computer games and eventually perhaps have his own firm, I think. There has been terrific change in the nature of this kind of activity and what it can involve. I hope I will not be accused of being irresponsibly sensational, because it does not seem to me that it is irresponsibly sensational at all. It is taking into account the realities of life. When did we begin to drift into a situation where the mental and psychological processes about playing very advanced computer games and the processes of sitting in the Nevada desert, or wherever it is, operating a machine became blurred? How do we continue to take, as we have always tried to take, the responsibility of recognising that war is a last resort and a very grave step to take? How do we now undertake warfare in the context of all sorts of humanitarian obligations and the rest? The Geneva conventions are just one example. I think that for all these reasons there has been a certain degree of complacency among legislators about what is happening and its significance, and I am sure that it is time that this was reviewed. I cannot stress strongly enough my appreciation of those who have brought this amendment forward.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Hodgson for bringing this amendment forward because it is clear in my mind that your Lordships’ House needs to have a debate on this subject, not just in the APPG but elsewhere. What I am not so happy with is the amendment to Clause 5. The real problem seems to be that we do not debate defence Bills very often in your Lordships’ House and there are very few places one can table an amendment such as this and the other amendment in this group. I therefore appreciate why it is here. However, the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, said drones are treated as aircraft. Clause 5, which relates to the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Defence Police, refers to aircraft and hovercraft, so if a drone is an aircraft, it is in. At the moment, it is not, so perhaps we need some clarification on that, because definitions are important.

A good point was made about unmanned aerial systems, because it is almost giving them a respectable name. The public know the name “drones”, and we now seem to have tried to find a longer, more convoluted phrase. I think a spade should be called a spade. If it is a drone, it is drone. I wonder whether there is a problem.

The real problem as far as the public and the noble Lord, Lord Judd, are concerned is the collateral damage when drones are used. Oversight is essential, but the worry in international legislation at the moment is that if someone in Texas, or maybe Nevada, is operating them, will they be harassed if an error happens? I suppose errors should not happen. President Obama announced changes in the drone programme in May 2013, which has been welcome because it has reduced the number of deaths caused by drone strikes.