Conversion Therapy Prohibition (Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity) Bill [HL]

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Friday 9th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, let me be clear where I stand on a couple of issues before I start. Among other subjects, I studied philosophy of mind and philosophy of religion at university. I studied the latter because I was and am a Christian. I am also a twin and, reading John’s Gospel, along with Thomas, I said:

“My Lord and my God”—


on the evangelical side, you understand.

At university, we examined the essence of personal identity. We concluded that the mind, not the body, is what makes someone the person that they are. A person disfigured beyond recognition is still the same person, but some who suffer serious head trauma, for example, change personality. A friend in Australia experienced this, describing his husband as “not the person I married”. A transgender man who honestly believes their female body does not reflect their true identity should be considered a man; their mind and not their body is the essence of their identity. That is my honestly held belief.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Winston, and my noble friend Lady Featherstone, I have received threats and abuse from both sides for even expressing an opinion on the subject, for even meeting those on both sides of the argument—so much for free speech.

Al Gore, the former Vice-President of the United States, once described climate change as an inconvenient truth. That is how I view my Christian beliefs set against my homosexuality. I believed that, with God’s help, I could be happy in a heterosexual marriage. I married Mary with genuine intentions to live together until death parted us. However, what I believed was achievable with God’s help turned out to be my version of Paul’s thorn. Eventually, I had to accept the way that God had made me, and my wife, who has been a great support to me ever since, accepted that as well.

But I still suffer from low self-confidence and self-esteem as a result of people constantly telling me I was not good enough just because I am gay. My parents told me that homosexuality was abhorrent, so I felt I could not even discuss it with them. I was bullied at school because of it. My police colleagues targeted people like me, and my church told me it was sinful. Being constantly told that you are not good enough, that there is something wrong with you, that yes, God made you a loving, caring, sensual individual but you cannot love the person whom you truly love because they are of the same sex damages you. Conversion therapy is an intense version of the same thing.

By all means, have an open discussion with someone about who they are or who they are attracted to, if that is what they want, without judgment and without blame, where the question, “Are you sure you’re straight?” is as valid as, “Are you sure you’re gay?”. It should not be a conversation designed to steer someone in one direction or another, to ensure that they conform with what the other person in that conversation wants them to be. If someone cannot be objective about gender identity and sexuality because of their own honestly held beliefs, they should not be having that conversation.

I was a young police sergeant in Brixton when I took pity on two frozen female officers who were on foot patrol one night. I gave them a lift in my police car. They were whispering to each other in the back seat, and I asked them what they were talking about. One of them said to me, “Sarge, why don’t you just be yourself?” It changed my life. There is nothing more limiting, more damaging, more inauthentic, than trying to be something or someone you are not. How many times do we criticise others for not being genuine? Yet conversion therapy is designed to do just that—to stop someone being genuine. Hence my joke, “I hate actors because they are constantly trying to be someone they are not”.

Of course, some people may be unhappy with their gender identity or sexuality, but the first question to those seeking help should be, “If your family, your friends, your religion, society generally, completely accepted you and loved you for who you are, would you really want to change?” As the noble Baroness, Lady Burt of Solihull, said, we should be concentrating on helping people to accept themselves for who they are, not forcing them into being something that they are not. This Bill as drafted may not be the answer, but something needs to be done to prevent lasting harm, damage that begins in childhood, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has said.

Home Secretary: Resignation and Reappointment

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Thursday 27th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)]

My Lords, I think it is actually very simple. Noble Lords have seen Ms Braverman’s letter. She made a mistake when she was Home Secretary. She acknowledged the mistake; she acknowledged an error of judgment; she apologised. That was dealt with by the previous Prime Minister and Ms Braverman resigned. Separately, the present Prime Minister has decided to appoint Ms Braverman as Home Secretary.

Everyone deserves a second chance. The Prime Minister was clear that this is a Government with integrity, professionalism and accountability, and I believe it was right to bring her back. On the question of advice, noble Lords will know that we do not comment on internal advice; such advice is confidential.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, apparently the Member of Parliament for Fareham, when previously Home Secretary, sent a restricted document to her own personal email address and then forwarded it to a Back-Bench MP and to someone she wrongly thought was the MP’s wife, apparently to get their advice. It was the second recipient of her email who alerted the authorities, not the MP for Fareham. If she is so unsure of her own judgment, and given that she goes to such lengths to circumvent security measures, why is she now Home Secretary?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I can only say again that mistakes were made and that the Home Secretary acknowledged those. It is a good thing to acknowledge when mistakes have been made. She apologised, sanctions were applied under the last Administration and the new Government have put together a united team to deliver for the British people, and that includes Ms Braverman. She needs to be able to focus on illegal immigration, on control of borders and on making our streets safer. She needs to deal with the murderous channel crossings criminal racket, and I hope the party opposite will support that.

European Union (Future Relationship) Bill

Lord Paddick Excerpts

3rd reading & 2nd reading & Committee negatived & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard) & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee negatived (Hansard) & Committee negatived (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 30th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD) [V]]

My Lords, there is a whole series of security issues that makes the UK less safe as a result of this future relationship agreement. In the time available, I will concentrate on one: we have not taken back control of our borders.

Under this deal, EU, EEA and Swiss nationals will be able to continue to use e-passport gates at UK airports, allowing visa-free, no-questions-asked access to the UK. Currently, Border Force officers have real-time access to the Schengen Information System, SIS II, as my noble friend Lord Newby said. This system includes details of all those wanted under the European arrest warrant—something else the UK will no longer be part of—and details of travelling sex offenders and those of interest to the counterterrorism community. From 1 January, real-time checking against the SIS II database of those passing through the UK border will no longer be possible. Passenger name record data, covered by this Bill, is collected by airlines; it contains no information about actual or suspected criminal activity.

Not only is there no hardening of the border compared to what currently exists under EU free movement rules, but the ability to prevent the entry of undesirable foreign nationals will be significantly reduced, because it will be much harder to identify them. Patrolling police officers on the streets of the UK can currently check whether the person they have stopped is wanted in any EU state, whether they are known to EU law enforcement as a sex tourist or suspected by another EU state of being involved in terrorism, simply by checking the person’s details on the police national computer—a PNC check. From 1 January 2021, the link between SIS II and the PNC will be disconnected, and none of these real-time checks will be possible. As a result of this deal, wanted criminals, sex offenders and suspected terrorists, who would have been identified through a simple check, will be allowed to go on their way. The National Police Chiefs’ Council lead for Brexit said last month that the loss of SIS II

“will have a massive impact on us”.

Anyone who claims we are safer with this deal than we were as a member of the European Union, or than we would potentially have been if we had paid as much attention during the negotiations to the safety and security of our citizens as we did to our fish, is sadly mistaken. The Bill is wholly inadequate when it comes to maintaining the security of the UK, and that is another reason why we cannot support it.

EU: Visa-free Short-term Travel Mobility

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Wednesday 21st October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, again, that is another specific and important point which is covered under this heading for discussion. I undertake to keep the House and my noble friend informed, in particular in relation to sport, as he has asked.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, according to the government website, UK citizens visiting EU countries from 1 January will have to have at least six months left on their passport, show a return or onward ticket, show they have enough money for their stay, use separate lanes from EU/EEA and Swiss nationals and limit their visit to 90 days in any 180 days. EU citizens travelling to the UK from 1 January do not need to worry about when their passport will expire, show a return or onward ticket, or prove they have enough money for their stay. They can continue to use the e-passport gates at UK airports, as before, and will be able to visit for six months and then come back the next day for another six. Who is really taking back control of our borders, the UK or the EU?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I simply say to the noble Lord, who represents a party that has been very critical of this Government’s attitude to European nationals, that the position he outlined demonstrates the openness of the future Britain.

Mobile Phones: Public Alert Systems

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Monday 13th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I understand the noble Lord’s impatience, and commend him for the regularity with which he has addressed this issue. Ministers have made it absolutely clear that doing nothing is not an option. Two weeks ago, there was a workshop of the Cabinet Office, the Home Office and the police to identify more accurately the precise specifications of the scheme that the noble Lord refers to. Later this year, the Environment Agency will be launching a trial scheme using cell broadcasting, and testing the 4G technology to compare it with existing alerting capabilities. The previous trials in 2013 which the noble Lord referred to, were disappointing, but they were based on older technology and the 2G network. Since then, things have moved on.

Finally, the noble Lord referred to the cyclone in India. Most of the existing schemes are used to warn people of tsunamis, flooding and fires. His report used it against a background of terrorism. That raises different issues, in that it is impossible to forecast exactly what is going to happen, and also, in the case of terrorism, the protagonists are also receiving the message alerts. That means that one requires a slightly different approach if one is to use it for those purposes rather than the purposes it is normally used for abroad.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has just said, on 28 October 2016 he launched his report on improving London’s terror preparedness. He recommended the installation of hostile vehicle mitigation barriers and the wider installation of protective bollards in areas of vulnerability around London. Sadly, no action was taken before the terrorist attacks on Westminster Bridge and London Bridge, the first being six months after the publication of the report. Does the Minister accept that any unnecessary delay to the implementation of the recommendations made by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, regarding the introduction of public alert systems could result in preventable loss of life?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I agree. One of the themes that came out of the debate in July, which the noble Lord participated in, was the importance of getting the message right and of any message coming from an alerting system being compatible with what the BBC, Sky and social media are doing—all of which may have more on-the-spot responses. This is why, as I said, it requires a slightly different approach the schemes that are already up and running. On the issue of the bollards and other obstructions, I will of course take that up with the relevant government department.

Terrorism: Emergency Communications

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Thursday 5th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, for giving us an opportunity to discuss these very important issues. Perhaps I should declare an interest: when I was a senior police officer I was trained as a gold commander to deal with the kinds of incidents we are talking about. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, talked about Grenfell and the difficulty of changing the established policy of “stay put” to one of evacuation, and not being able to communicate it. He is right: this technology does exist. It has been discussed, yet no progress seems to be made. Clearly, there are circumstances in which it could be extremely useful. Of course, false reports have resulted in, for example, the Oxford Street stampede—false reports of a shooting took place, as the noble Lord said. Such misinformation being spread can actually come from official sources. I shall come back to that by way of example shortly.

Clearly, there are very serious concerns about the replacement for Airwave, the emergency services network, relying on a commercial 4G network rather than a dedicated emergency service and other public service system. Any reassurance the Minister is able to give on that would be welcome.

The noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom, talked about the importance of practising for such emergencies. The noble Lord, Lord Rees of Ludlow, talked about underpreparation for catastrophic events. Certainly, in my time as a gold commander, I spent many a happy weekend with other emergency services, local authorities and even representatives of the media, regularly exercising for these sorts of emergencies. I would be surprised if that does not continue to this day.

On 7 July 2005 I was in my office at Scotland Yard, having a meeting with the health service. My staff officer came in and said there had been a serious incident on the Underground. I thanked her but she insisted on me abandoning the meeting. I went to the first floor of Scotland Yard where a commander was in charge of a public order event at that time. The first information that we were given by London Underground was that there had been a power surge on the Underground. That was misinformation but it was the information that we were given. As I was talking to the commander, the explosion happened on the bus and I said, “Power surges do not happen on buses”, and we realised that we were under terrorist attack.

I agreed with the gold commander that I would do the press conferences for the Metropolitan Police. I went to the press bureau on the 13th floor and agreed with the head of public affairs that that would be the right course of action. We went to see the commissioner in his office. Although the commissioner insisted that he should do the media, I can remember his staff officer coming in and saying, “COBRA says the commissioner is not to do the media”, and the commissioner saying, “Tell COBRA I’m doing it”. Why did COBRA insist on this? Because in the immediate aftermath of such an incident—on 7 July, a series of catastrophic incidents—there is confusion and it is very easy to say, with the authority of the country’s most senior police officer, something that turns out not to be true. The “swift and authoritative voices” that the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, talked about are not always possible to deliver in the immediate aftermath of such incidents.

On that occasion, the information given by the commissioner was that there had been five incidents on the Underground. In fact, there had been three; two had happened midway between two Underground stations and people were evacuating from both ends of the train, making it look as though there had been more incidents than had actually taken place. I say to the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, that actually it was the attempted bombings two weeks later on 21 July when none of the bombs exploded and all the perpetrators managed to flee, rather on 7 July, when all the suicide bombers died.

It is essential that the emergency services are seen to be in control and to speak authoritatively about what has happened. In the initial stages, as a more junior officer, I prefaced everything I said in every press conference I did in the immediate aftermath with “from what we know at this time”. Such an approach means that when the smoke clears, the most senior police officer in the country can be seen as completely trustworthy and the reassurances he or she gives can equally be trusted.

Even a day or so later, what we believed to be the timings of the bombings on the Underground were proved to be wrong. They had actually exploded simultaneously, at a prearranged time agreed by the bombers. One of the bombers did not follow the plan and got off the Underground but when he realised that his fellow bombers had carried out their murders, he detonated his bomb on the bus, with devastating consequences.

I tell this story to emphasise that, while it is important that there is communication with the public to provide advice, guidance, instruction and reassurance, initially and for some time afterwards, it is not always obvious what has happened and therefore the advice, guidance, instruction and reassurance we can give are limited.

In addition to having mechanisms to get messages to the public quickly, it is important that we ensure that the information is accurate. Thankfully, the scenario that we are very wary of—that the initial explosion is perhaps designed to push people into areas where other devices are about to explode—did not happen in the Manchester Arena attack. If there was confusion, as the noble Viscount said, between the fire and rescue service and the other emergency services during the Manchester incident, it showed how important it is that such initial confusion is not communicated erroneously to the public, thereby undermining public confidence in the ability of the emergency services to deal effectively with such outrages and hampering a return to normality, which is the best response we can have to attempts by terrorists to disrupt our way of life.

Hate Crime

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Tuesday 13th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

On the first question, of course we want to take those recommendations forward, and perhaps I could write in more detail to the noble Lord on that. On the question of police resources, I am aware of the exchanges that took place in the other place yesterday. After speaking to all forces in England and Wales, the Government have provided a comprehensive funding settlement that will increase total investment in the police system by around £450 million in 2018-19. Overall public investment in policing will grow from £11.9 billion in 2015-16 to around £13 billion in 2018-19. We believe that the settlement enables police and crime commissioners to increase their direct funding by up to £270 million. It is then up to chief constables to decide how best to deploy officers in their force to effectively serve and engage their communities and to build trust and confidence. The Government have made it absolutely clear that this is one of the priorities that police forces must engage in as they deploy those resources.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, these letters are right-wing terrorism and incitement to terrorism. They are the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in pursuit of political aims, and we should call it terrorism. Taking up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about police resources, in the other place the Minister was asked whether the police had sufficient resources to deal with these incidents. The Minister replied:

“Of course, we have increased them …We ask the police whether they have the resources that they need, and the Home Secretary acts accordingly”.


In this House last week, the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, said:

“The police told us last year the number of additional police officers needed to do their job. We feel that in the budget they can attain this year they will have those police numbers—and more—to do the job that they do”.—[Official Report, 8/3/18; col. 1249.]


However, the Police Chiefs’ Council, in response to the most recent budget settlement, said:

“While the extra funding to tackle terrorism is welcomed, counterterrorism policing is considering tough choices as their settlement equates to a less than 2% increase on current spending at a time when demand has grown by 30%”.


Can the Minister say how these statements can be reconciled?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, the noble Lord has been a policeman and is now a politician. He will know that the figures to which he has referred can be looked at from two dimensions. The police have their own perception. The Government have the one that I just set out: that there has been a real-terms increase in resources available to the police. On top of the resources that we are putting into the police, it is also important to put on the record that we are taking forward our plans for tackling hate crime. There are a number of other initiatives that we have taken in order to tackle far and extreme right-wing activism, for example. There is the Anti-Muslim Hatred Working Group and its achievements. We have also funded Tell MAMA, which I mentioned a few moments ago, with £1.9 million. We are putting £1.2 million into Remembering Srebrenica and we are putting £2.4 million over three years into the security of all faith establishments, including mosques. There are a number of other initiatives, including £900,000 to support community projects, so on top of the resources for the police—and we can disagree about what perspective is put on those—there are other initiatives that we are taking to tackle hate crime.

Digital Forensic Services

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, noble Lords will be aware of the issues surrounding disclosure of evidence, particularly to the defence in criminal prosecutions, because of the sheer volume of digital information in many cases. Will the Minister say whether setting in law a police bail limit of 28 days—as has been done recently, against the unanimous advice of academics and practitioners—and the relentless reduction of police officer numbers because of a real-terms cut in central government funding, leaving police officer numbers at a 30-year low, is likely to make that crisis better or worse?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

On the specific issue of disclosure, which is important, the noble Lord will know that the Attorney-General has instituted a review, which will examine existing codes of practice, protocols, guidelines and legislation, as well as case management initiatives and capabilities across the whole criminal justice system, including how digital technology is used. Alongside that, the CPS and police forces are looking at any current cases to see that no cases go forward where there is a doubt about the disclosure process. The Government continue to monitor progress to ensure the police and the CPS deliver on the actions they have committed to undertake on the important issue of disclosure.

Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (Search, Seizure and Detention of Property: Code of Practice) Order 2018

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Tuesday 5th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that explanation of the purpose and content of the four orders we are considering, which we support. Clearly, they do not have quite the same attraction for Members of your Lordships’ House as the business we discussed prior to this, judging by the attendance in the Chamber at present.

The orders seek to ensure that powers are used appropriately and proportionately by those exercising them, as well as giving those exercising them the necessary powers to achieve the required objectives in recovering the proceeds of crime. As the Minister said, the orders bring into force revised codes of practice and one new code of practice, providing guidance and procedural requirements for the exercise of certain functions under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002. The revised and new codes are required because of amendments to POCA made by the Criminal Finances Act 2017, which was passed last April—in the days when this Government had a working majority in the House of Commons and before this Government gave a certain large sum of money to secure a smooth, lasting and harmonious working relationship with the DUP.

That brings me to the issue of Northern Ireland and these orders. As the Minister said, a legislative consent Motion has not been obtained because the Northern Ireland Assembly was dissolved during the passage of the Criminal Finances Act. The Minister said that the Government were working with the authorities in Northern Ireland to commence the powers as soon as possible. Does this mean that further legislative measures are on the way or are such measures all covered by these orders? Which powers are the Government working with the authorities in Northern Ireland to commence there as soon as possible? Is it just the new powers and amendments made under the Criminal Finances Act 2017, to which the revised and new codes of practice we are discussing relate, or powers unconnected to these codes of practice? Who are the authorities in Northern Ireland to which the Minister referred? What are the actual or potential consequences on the effectiveness of the matters covered by the Criminal Finances Act in relation to proceeds of crime, not only in Northern Ireland but in Great Britain, of not being able to obtain a legislative consent Motion and bring them into operation on the intended day?

Since one of the orders apparently covers Northern Ireland—the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (Cash Searches: Code of Practice) Order 2018—can the Minister say why that order includes Northern Ireland, in view of the issue over a legislative consent Motion not being obtainable? The Commons Minister stated when it was discussed there that,

“there is nothing in these codes relating to the new powers that is a devolved matter in the competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly ”.—[Official Report, Commons, Delegated Legislation Committee, 4/12/17; col. 4.]

Is the answer to the question I have raised that the order to which I refer covers an aspect of POCA that is not devolved?

A second point relates to the resources that will be available to ensure that the new powers and provisions in the Criminal Finances Act 2017, to which the revised codes relate, can be effectively implemented. For example, the codes cover the extension of certain authorities and powers to the Serious Fraud Office. There is also a new code of practice providing guidance, as the Minister said, on the use of search powers for the recovery of listed assets that are suspected to be the proceeds of crime or intended for use in crime. New codes are of little relevance if the resources are not there to bring their content into operation.

What steps have the Government taken recently to satisfy themselves that the necessary resources are available to implement effectively the powers and authorities to which these codes relate? What are the asset recovery rates of the agencies concerned, and how have those changed over the last five years? Do the agencies have a target figure they are expected to achieve and are they achieving it? Are the Government satisfied with the performance of the agencies concerned on asset recovery and, if not, what action is being taken? Finally, can the Government give an assurance that, since the codes refer, I believe, to immigration officers, among others, the important powers covered by these codes will not be conferred on outside bodies acting for the Government, such as G4S and Serco?

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, we also support these instruments and see the importance of extending the ability to recover criminal assets to precious metal and precious stones. There is a serious concern in some communities, for example with drug dealers who display their wealth ostentatiously, that young people should not be encouraged to go down that route by such behaviour. The police and other law enforcement agencies sometimes have difficulty in proving substantive offences against such people, so for them to be able to seize such precious metal and precious stones where people are not able legitimately to account for them is an extremely important move.

It is a concern that these powers will not be able to be commenced in Northern Ireland. This highlights again the importance of Northern Ireland in matters that the country is concerned with at this time.

It is important that these agencies have the necessary resources to implement the powers to which these codes of practice relate. While it is possible that fewer resources will be required to seize assets than would be necessary to prove sometimes difficult substantive offences against the individual, we are content with these instruments.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their support for these measures, and I will try as best I can to answer the questions raised. I can confirm that the powers cannot be applied to G4S. I repeat the assurance my ministerial colleague gave yesterday in another place.

Questions were raised about Northern Ireland. As I explained when I introduced the order, the new powers and the amendments to existing powers in the Criminal Finances Act 2017 will not be commenced in Northern Ireland until a legislative consent Motion can be obtained. As a result, the codes that are laid before the House, in so far as they apply to Northern Ireland, will continue to make provision for the existing POCA powers, but not for the amendments and the new powers in the Criminal Finances Act. In answer to the question about how this is done, the statutory instruments will apply the codes in Northern Ireland and the limitation I have just referred to is in the wording of the codes themselves rather than in the statutory instruments that bring the codes into force. The approach we have taken in drafting the codes is that it is clear in the wording that guidance on the new powers introduced by the Criminal Finances Act will not apply to Northern Ireland for the reasons that I have just given. It is clear, however, that the rest of the code that provides guidance on the use of existing powers will apply to Northern Ireland. If it would help both noble Lords, I would be happy to drop them a line explaining which bits apply now and which bits will apply later.

In answer to the question about who we are corresponding with, I imagine we are corresponding at official level within Northern Ireland. If and when an LCM is obtained from the Assembly, the codes will be revised to remove the restrictions in relation to Northern Ireland. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, this will require further consultation and debates in Parliament, and the revised codes will be brought into force by further statutory instruments, so we will go round the course again.

I have here a list of which sections of POCA relate to England and Wales and which extend to Northern Ireland. Rather than read it out—it is long and complicated—I think it would be best if, as I said a few moments ago, I wrote to noble Lords and placed a copy of the letter in the Library.

Personal Identity Cards

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Monday 4th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful for the intervention of my noble friend. I am genuinely envious of those, such as him and the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, who think that the case for an identity card system is made, and equally envious of those who come with equal conviction to the other side of the argument. I say that as someone who, with my party, has voted both for and against identity cards. Having revisited this subject recently with some assistance from the Home Office, it seems to me that introducing identity cards now would be a 20th-century solution to a 21st-century problem, since so much identity fraud is now online and forgeries have become much more sophisticated. Other countries are now moving away from physical identity cards to other forms of digital identification of who people are.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, if Ministers had discussed identity cards with border security services, no doubt they would have said, “We don’t need ID cards —we need stronger border controls, including effective exit checks”. With passenger numbers increasing, why have the Government reduced the budget of the Border Force, forcing it to cut the number of staff at UK airports? This morning two-thirds of the e-gates at Heathrow Airport terminal 5 were closed because of a lack of staff, resulting in queues that will only get worse if we have a damaging Tory Brexit.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I think exit checks were reintroduced in May 2015. I will correct that in writing if that is not the case. The Government want tourists to be able to visit this country and not spend a disproportionate time going through passport or visa control. The last statistics I saw a few weeks ago indicated that the average time it takes to get through passport control was coming down, but I take note of the noble Lord’s representations. I agree that we should allow people to come in without undue delay.