Energy Bill

Debate between Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan and Lord Bishop of Chester

Tuesday 30th July 2013 Grand Committee

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, I very much support the amendment. This may well be the last time I speak in this Committee and I thank the Minister for the way in which she has conducted herself and for writing to me with answers to some previous questions that I raised.

In addition to the reasons which have been so clearly enunciated, I would like to inject into the discussion the issue of culture, because much of what we are about in energy policy in this country is working on a change of culture. It has become a fashionable word. The Second Reading of the Financial Services Bill was all about changing the culture of banking and financial services, and that is absolutely right. However, the same applies in the energy realm. The sort of installations that we are talking about are relatively small in themselves but speak more widely.

I will digress very slightly to a non-domestic instance. In Chester in the 1920s, the tram system was powered by a small hydroelectric plant on the River Dee. The University of Chester, where I am president of the council, is in the process of bringing that hydroelectric plant back into operation, partly to satisfy its obligations to HEFCE vis-à-vis its green credentials but also as a very reasonable project in itself. It will have a cultural impact in Chester quite beyond the actual electricity component of the project, and I think that the same will apply in the circumstances we are discussing.

There is something about hydroelectric power that goes with the grain of the countryside and nature rather better than windmills and some of the other things we are doing. We should do more to encourage local use of natural resources. If the projections about future rainfall are right, there will be even more rain flowing into our rivers to power these microhydro projects. Although I cannot comment on the precise terms of the amendment, it seems to me that the spirit of it is absolutely right at the present time.

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

I rise stimulated by the right reverend Prelate’s remarks, partly because when hydropower developments took place in Scotland, the nature of the opposition to them was very similar to the nature of the opposition to wind turbines today. Indeed, if you read any of the histories of hydropower in Scotland, you find the same arguments and the same kind of protagonists. Indeed, as I recall, one of the supporters of hydropower in the 1930s was expelled from the Perthshire hunt on the grounds that they were going to deface Pitlochry. Anybody who knows Scotland will know that Pitlochry is a great tourist attraction on the way up to Inverness and that the jewel in the crown of Pitlochry is the hydroelectric dam and the salmon leap there. If anyone were now to try to say that they wanted to close it down because it is spoiling the countryside, they would get rather a lot of fleas in their ears from the kind of people who say that they want to have hydropower but not wind power. That has to be taken into account.

Hydropower is one of the most attractive forms of generation. It is also interesting that subsidies for refurbishment have been made available to small-scale hydro, which may well be the case in Chester as well as in Deeside in Scotland. I had the opportunity of visiting one site some years ago because the kit had been refurbished in my constituency by the Weir Group of Alloa. The output had been increased from 70 megawatts of power to 81 megawatts, which was a considerable achievement. This is far smaller, but we can bring into play hydro opportunities that have perhaps fallen into disuse. It would be better if they could get the best possible deal because river flow—drought notwithstanding—tends to be pretty reliable. One would imagine that this, out of all the renewables, would be less prone to interruptibility and that therefore an amendment of this nature seeking to give a bit of extra assistance would be extremely helpful at this time. I support the amendment.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan and Lord Bishop of Chester

Monday 31st January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

I welcome this amendment. It is important that we have a code that is as robust as possible, not least because this process will be carried out without a clearly identifiable body responsible for consumer protection. We have previously had gas and electricity consumers councils. After that, we had the combined one and Energywatch, which was folded into Consumer Focus, which, of course, will disappear. Many people have grave doubts about whether the citizens advice bureaux as presently constituted have the resources. They certainly have sufficient locations, but the question remains whether within these locations they will have people with the expertise to take on the protection of consumers when matters such as smart metering arise.

As has been pointed out, there is a great lack of public confidence in the energy suppliers in this country. That is quite a sizeable achievement, because for many years we were able to point to British Gas, the Post Office and one or two other companies as being the kind of companies that people could depend on and trust. Now, in large measure, either through commercial incompetence or greed—in the case of the Post Office it is not really greed, but I certainly would not acquit the others of a charge of greed—the public lack confidence in these companies.

The rolling-out of meters will go on for some time. We will have something like 18.5 million households with gas and another 24 million with gas and electricity, and then there are small businesses, shops and the like. So we could be talking about somewhere in the region of 45 million-plus meters being installed over a relatively short period.

One of the hallmarks of this process at present is that it is shrouded in secrecy. The lack of transparency about the discussions taking place between the Government and the companies is, in many respects, quite astounding. There is not that much that we need to concern ourselves with in terms of commercial secrecy, but we need to know a great deal more. If we are not going to have what many of us would regard as appropriate bodies for consumer protection, if we are likely to have a lengthy period in which this rollout will take place and if we have a conspicuous absence of transparency in the planning and the bringing down, even intermittently, of tablets from the mountain, it is important that we have as robust a code as possible.

While we may get the usual claptrap from the Minister about the words in the amendment not being the exact words, we want reassurance. The public deserve reassurance. We as consumers will be paying for the installation of these meters even though they will be owned by some electricity or gas supplier. It must be made clear that we will have these meters for a long time. I remember that one of the past arguments against smart metering, at a time when there was not quite the environmental edge to the debate that there is now, was that these meters were robust enough to last for 40 years. It was the “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” kind of argument. We are going to be saddled with these damn things for a long time, so we should ensure that they are the right ones, that they are sufficiently flexible, that we begin to get clear indications of the intentions of the companies and that there is to be a sufficiently strong and robust process of consumer protection throughout that period.

To each of those requests, I would expect some kind of lukewarm response from the Minister, such as, “We’ll do our best. We’re all trying very hard, chaps”. Until such time as we can get something more robust than that, the least that we can hope for is a decent code of practice. My noble friend Lord Whitty has made a reasonable stab at that. The words may not be exactly what are required but, if the message can be got through and if at Report we can get something to reassure and protect consumers, we will not have made too bad a fist of this part of the Bill.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, when the Minister does indeed bring the tablets down the mountain at the end of this short debate, I wonder if he could put on record what the Government anticipate will be the average capital and installation cost, which will be an additional burden on the energy consumer.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, perhaps I may make a short comment on the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill. Of all the things that the Minister has or has not done, the one thing that he has not done is to come back on amendments and say that they are not exactly right and will not therefore work. I have never heard him make that particular response, to put the record straight.

Referendums: Constitution Committee Report

Debate between Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan and Lord Bishop of Chester

Tuesday 12th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, the committee's thorough and skilful report is most welcome, not only for the contribution which it offers to the potential use of referendums but for the way in which it implicitly opens up questions about the effective operation of our democracy, which so obviously lie in the background. For my part, while I welcome the general tenor of the report, with its caution about the use of referendums and its various health warnings along the way, here and there I think that the report is too cautions. I may be able to offer the Minister a little more pastoral care than he has received so far in the debate.

Why do I think that the report is a bit too cautions? Our aim is good government through a strong, representative democracy. One easy conclusion would be that if this aim is already achieved, there is little need for the use of referendums unless major constitutional change is proposed. Even there, there are issues to debate. This, in large measure, seems to be the underlying logic of the committee's report, and there is much to commend that, but there are two ways in which the logic needs some qualification.

The first picks up some comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, although not quite in the context in which he offered them, concerning the current balance in our constitutional arrangements between the Government, or Executive, and Parliament. It has been widely remarked in recent years that the balance has become an imbalance, with the Executive using the powers at their command to dominate Parliament. It is several decades since Lord Hailsham coined the well-known phrase “elective dictatorship” in his Dimbleby lecture to point up the dangers, but since he issued that warning the dangers have got even greater. Perhaps the advent of coalition government has not entirely helped, not least in this House where a whipped vote of the coalition partners will be much harder to defeat than has previously been the case.

The problem of an over-dominant Executive is widely before us, and it is not conducive to the flourishing of representative democracy. The natural solution, of course, would be to seek to rebalance the relationship between the Government and Parliament, but that is more easily said than done because of the pressures that the Government are under and because so much power has in practice already been transferred to the Executive.

Perhaps a somewhat greater use of referendums would be a useful tool of empowerment to the people of this country, a way of embodying and demonstrating that the power which Governments wield is exercised on behalf of all our citizens. We have to face the widespread cynicism about politics and politicians today, as we have been sharply reminded in the past two years. We should not underestimate what needs to be done in order to counteract this, and a somewhat wider use of referendums on a consultative basis may have a place in the appropriate strategy. This would not be a panacea, as the noble Lord, Lord Hart, suggested, but it may have a place in a consultative way.

If referendums were purely consultative, that would take the sting out of a great deal of what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said in his powerful speech. The decision could rest with Parliament, be it about capital punishment or constitutional change, but there is a real advantage in empowering people and involving them in decisions. If we say that there is public ignorance, that is not a reason for not consulting people; it is a reason for increasing public knowledge, and properly conducted referendums could have a place in achieving that.

I shall point to a couple of examples, one where a referendum was used and one where it was not but it might have been and, I believe, should have been. Imagine for a moment that there had not been a referendum in the north-east in 2004 about regional devolution. This was a highly political subject, the government of the day at least appearing to be strongly in favour of regional devolution. It is easy to think that the government of the day would have convinced themselves of the rightness of their proposals and gone ahead, but a clear result in the referendum effectively prevented that happening—rightly so, I believe. In saying this, I am aware that any referendum will be a rough and ready tool, and the outcome will need careful interpretation. Proper questions were raised about aspects of the process and campaign in the north-east. Nevertheless, I think it is widely accepted that the wisdom of holding that consultative referendum is undeniable.

Let us look at this from another point of view in, perhaps, a more controversial area where referendums have not been held, and the committee draws attention to this—that is, over successive European treaties. I tread somewhat warily into this territory, but the lack of any referendum on at least one of the treaties since 1975 has had a bad effect on how politics is viewed in this country. There is a widespread sense—not only among London taxi drivers, although they certainly exhibit it—that too much power has been transferred without proper scrutiny and democratic consent to the European Union by successive Governments forcing the relevant legislation through by heavily whipped votes. I say this as a supporter of the European Union who is largely grateful for our membership, but the absence of any recognised test and mandate of the people of our country as a whole may yet return to haunt our political life, not least since the major parties have broadly taken the same European policies to the electorate in successive election campaigns.

I move to a more local example from my own neck of the woods in Cheshire. Several years ago, without a local referendum, there was a consultation—I put inverted commas around the word in my notes—about the future shape of local government in the county of Cheshire. There were three options, broadly: a continuance of the previous arrangements in some form of dual administration by a county council and six district councils; a single Cheshire-wide unitary; or two new unitaries, east and west Cheshire. The great weight of the responses to the consultation favoured either a revised status quo or a single unitary. However, a political decision was made by the Minister to impose two new unitaries, which seemed to most people in my community to have little local support. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, who is not now in his place, said earlier that public confidence in consultation is very low; I am not surprised that that can be said.

I pay tribute to those who are making the new system of east and west Cheshire work, but there remains the widespread feeling that the community of Cheshire was subject to an executive decision in London that did not take sufficient account of what the people of Cheshire judged was best. The very fact that the new unitaries are called east Cheshire and west Cheshire rather indicates that there is an underlying social and geographical reality of Cheshire to which both belong. The exercise has been much more expensive than a single unitary would have been. The people of Cheshire as a whole deserved the chance to be consulted before a decision was taken by the Minister, just as the people of the north-east were consulted about regional devolution.

Perhaps it is implied in the coalition agreement that this should have happened, because a referendum is required for the introduction of an elected mayor. Should it not also be required for any major change in local constitutional arrangements? Amid my general support for the government response, I look forward to the Minister’s response on that specific point. It is relevant not just to elected mayors.

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

Can the right reverend Prelate, in a national, rather than a local government, context, take account of the fact that referenda tend to be judgments as much on the proposer as on the proposition? If the proposer is not very popular at any time, it affords the electorate an opportunity to have a go at them. That is probably the reason—more so than any other—why devolution in the north-east was rejected. In 2004 the status and popularity of the Labour Government in an area where they were normally held in high regard were somewhat lower than we would otherwise have expected them to be.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

That point was raised earlier in the debate. Of course there will be a range of factors that come into play. I lived and worked in the north-east for nearly 10 years. I was not surprised that when the people were consulted they gave the response that they did. I think that most people would now think that it would have been wrong to introduce regional government. However, to address the point more directly, the very fact that referendums are held so sporadically, in such an ad hoc way, has contributed to the fact that they can be misused or interpreted as a judgment on the proposer. That is why a slightly more organised protocol for the use of referendums, particularly, perhaps, for local issues but occasionally also for national issues, would be beneficial to our democracy. However, there is no panacea and there are dangers with whatever approach one takes.

I conclude with a more general point about the exercise of political power. The notion seems to have grown up that strong government necessarily means powerful government, with the government of the day being perceived to be in charge of events. Yes, that is understandable. However, the intolerable pressures of the modern media can push a Government too far. Is it not one of the implications of the idea of a big society, as opposed to a big state or big government, that a strong Government can display their strength by sharing their power with the people most affected by a decision? That, I believe, lies behind the proposed localism Bill. It is also the underlying reason why we should be prepared to welcome a rather wider use of consultative referendums than has been the case in recent times, and as the committee’s report recommends.