Welfare Reform Bill

Lord Newton of Braintree Excerpts

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I pick up that point, which is very relevant to the debates we will be having regarding the concept of risk. I suppose there is never a right time to introduce legislation such as this, and everybody agrees that legislation and changes are needed, but we are having this legislation at a time of considerable economic uncertainty. There is interplay of social security, as I still prefer to call it, with not just those who are out of work, people who are disabled and all the rest, but those who are in work and who have to face a question of risk if they are going to be mobile in terms of their labour contribution. My fear is that the uncertainty that comes along with the Bill—uncertainty to some extent is inevitable in the structure of a Bill where so much of the detail is to be provided by regulation at a later stage—will dampen down labour mobility at the very time when the economy wants to maximise labour mobility in order to get things moving.

A person who is in work who is uncertain as to his or her future and whether, if they move to another job, there is a safety net there, will not take the risk. They will batten down and stick with what they have. Therefore, in our discussion of this legislation it is immensely important that it becomes as transparent as is possible to people outside, within the restrictions of legislation that is so dependent on regulation, so that they understand that there is still a safety net there to provide security in some of the decisions that they have to take for themselves and on behalf of their families.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, since I appear to be one of a relatively small band of Conservatives in the Room, I think one of us ought to say something. I intend to do so briefly. I was grateful to my noble friend Lord Kirkwood for recognising that some of us might have been in Manchester. If anyone wants to know why I am not, I think I have been to 40 party conferences, and have done my time.

On the main points, I join in the thanks to the Minister and the Bill team who have been great. I support the approach of my noble friend to a debate that comes at the end of a recess, and his suggestion about how we should handle it, which seems to have been tacitly accepted. I endorse his point about the doubtfulness of trying to use withdrawal of social security benefits as a punishment for offences that have nothing to do with social security. I can see that if you have been in benefit fraud then withdrawal of benefit might be appropriate. If your kids do not go to school or even if they burn down warehouses, I am not sure that it is an appropriate punishment to withdraw benefit from the family.

I share the concerns about the language in various ways, both on the use of welfare rather than social security and on the universal credit terminology. We probably cannot do anything about the latter, but the fact is that tax credits in their terminology were always a bit of a con, in my humble opinion. This was reflected in the fact that, although they were classified as tax, it was agreed that appeals should continue to go to social security tribunals not to tax tribunals because the tax tribunals knew nothing about it. That really gave the game away. Whether or not we can change the language, the thought is an important one.

Concerning the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, I emphasise the importance of childcare costs in the whole debate about making it practical for families to work. I hope we shall hear something about that.

I share concerns, in light of some of the reports in the press, that if the IT does not work then to judge from our experience—for example, with the Child Support Agency—you have a potentially difficult situation on your hands. If there is not complete confidence that the IT systems necessary to make this system work will be delivered in time, then the Government should slow down until they are sure that the IT will work.

I have two more points, which will probably be a bit less welcome to my noble friend. I still want to know more about the interaction between the proposals in the Bill and the Legal Aid Bill, which we have yet to come to, and the Localism Bill, all of which have important ingredients, which impact on the same people. I am not clear that there has been joined-up government in considering the combined impact of these proposals.

Lastly—and here I get on very dangerous ground—there was a brief reference in the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, to child benefit. I have already indicated to the Minister in a less formal way that I would like to know how the child benefit changes are going to be dealt with, because I had thought they were going to be in this Bill, and they are not. As I understand it, although I am not sure about this, they are likely to be treated as being in a Finance Bill, which will, of course, severely restrict the ability of this House to say or do anything about them. If that is to be the case, I think we need to know fairly soon.

Equally, we need to recognise that the proposals on child benefit—which I notice the press has suggested that Ministers may be reconsidering, but that is no more than speculation—could be subject to change. I hope that they will be for reasons that I do not wish to go into and it would be wrong for me to develop at length. However, I should flag up that the child benefit proposals, in combination with everything else in the Bill, are one of the things that worry me about an overall policy which I otherwise strongly support.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

I wonder if I could intervene from a sedentary position. I think all that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, was seeking was a simple assurance: if at some stage it becomes clear that the next bit will not work, will Ministers change the timetable? That is not a “beating your wife” question. It is simple and straightforward.

[Lord Freud]

It is never that black and white. When you build a system in stages, the issue is how partial or complete the system is. There is a decision to be taken around the level of partiality. If there were to be a delay—and as I say, there is not—clearly, one would have to be realistic. If there were some other problem and it did not work at all, again one would have to be realistic.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

I will accept a commitment to be realistic.

[Lord Freud]

I am most grateful to my noble friend. I shall continue dealing with the questions. My noble friend Lord Kirkwood was interested in the interrelationship with the Social Security Advisory Committee, which, as he pointed out, has a statutory duty to examine all social security regulations. Any regulations for universal credit that rely on existing legislation—for example, those relating to claims, and awards and payments to joint claimants—will therefore be subject to full SSAC examination. I accept that there are large parts of the Bill that introduce new regulation-making powers. In these areas, the committee may not have its former role, but I assure noble Lords that we will continue to talk to the committee and use the arrangements currently in place allowing us to provide it with information on new powers and the regulations made, within six months of the commencement of those powers.

On the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, on how the system will cope with, for instance, a self-employed and an employed member of a household, any earnings received through the PAYE system will automatically be taken into account even though they may be from one or more PAYE sources. We will clearly need to take assessment of non-PAYE earnings through some other tool, and we are looking at developing a self-reporting tool to provide us with earnings information.

A number of noble Lords raised the issue of language, including my noble friends Lord Kirkwood and Lord Newton and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hollis and Lady Campbell. I have to agree that language is extremely important. There are quite a few issues around it; some involve European legislation on exportability, so sometimes there are some constrictions. I see universal credit as a support for those who need it, whether they are unemployed, disabled, a lone parent or working for a relatively low income. We want universal credit to support as many people into work as possible.

I will come to the language issue around the name “universal credit”. One of the things about the word “credit” is that it carries with it a sense of entitlement, and I know that a lot of noble Lords are concerned about that. There is some language around that, and that is why the term was chosen in the case of tax credits. There is a sense in which it is a credit; there is an entitlement there.

I was asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, about allowances for training of staff—clearly, one does not have a transformative project such as this without having properly trained staff. The total budget that has been set aside to fund the transition, including administration costs, is £2 billion. Training is a crucial element of that.

Amendment 1, raised by my noble friend Lord Kirkwood, would rename universal credit. His title, “working age entitlement”, is a straw man, as he said. It is fair to ask where “universal credit” comes from. It has its origins in the financial dynamics paper, although the noble Lord will know if he remembers that paper well that there were two different credits. In this case, they were boiled down into a single credit for all people on working-age, means-tested benefit. That is where its universality resides: it captures everyone in that category.

One of the attractions of having one word to capture all working-age benefits is that we have two systems today, an out-of-work benefit system and an in-work tax credit system, and the differentiation between them has made it harder to move from one to the other. That is where the discrimination and the differentiation are; that is where the apartheid—if one wants to use an ugly word—lies. That is the gap that we are trying to remove. There is not a real gap, as noble Lords have pointed out today, between those who are unfortunate enough to be out of work, or those who have a disability or fluctuating condition that means that they cannot reliably go into work, and those in work. There is no hard line between the two, nor do we want there to be. We want people to be able to flow across easily. It is because we have two different systems that we have made it so much harder. That is what we are doing with the universal credit, and that is what lies behind our reason for calling it that. As the noble Lord said, what’s in a name? It may seem rather a wide name—“universal”—but it reflects the fact that a whole range of needs will now be met through a single payment rather than by a piecemeal and confusing jumble of benefits and credits. I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I have two questions arising from what the Minister has said. The first is on the current impact assessment—we look forward to the new one soon—of the number of children who will be helped. I think that the figure was 350,000. Was that figure reached before other changes to the benefits system were taken into account, given that the IFS has estimated that child poverty will rise in 2013? The second question, briefly, is on IT. I was involved with some of the IT systems for automatic enrolment with NEST. I should like the comfort of knowing that these two will also be well connected.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

Before the Minister responds to that, may I chip in? The one thing that has not been touched on—I noticed that the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, was a bit agitated about this as well—is childcare costs. There was no comment on this.

[Lord Freud]

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, asked two questions. The child poverty impact that I cited from the impact assessment refers to the universal credit alone. It does not incorporate the other changes that there may be. On IT, we are working very hard to make these systems work together smoothly. The third issue, raised by my noble friend Lord Newton, was on childcare. I have had a supportive word from the Box, which I shall seize and use: I hope to be able to inform him and other noble Lords soon about our childcare arrangements.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

What does “soon” mean?

[Lord Freud]

I think we have developed a code for “soon”, which I need not go on about again.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

On this occasion I will accept not just realism but good will.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

I am grateful to all colleagues who have taken part in this debate. I hope it has fulfilled its purpose of scoping out exactly where the Committee is going. I understand that colleagues want to finish at 7.30 pm. I cannot but welcome my mentor, the noble Lord, Lord Newton, who was Secretary of State for Health and Social Security under Margaret Thatcher and succeeded in spite of all these things. It is a particular delight. I should like the Minister of State to pay particular attention to what the noble Lord says because he knows what he is talking about. I know this because I have followed his career for many years.

We obviously need a code for this. An Enigma machine might be purchased so that we can understand what “soon” really means, and issues of that kind. That will help the Committee. I certainly want to sign up for the demonstration of Yasmin and Liam when it comes. Apart from anything else, I have a drink riding on this. If this system works, I owe the Minister of State at least a double whisky or whatever his poison is. I want to be deeply involved in all these processes related to IT.

I have two other very quick points. It is true to say, and reassuring to hear, that SSAC has that role, and that the Minister clearly understands its importance in this process. He will know that it has never had the same formal process of review over tax credits that it had over the benefits system. We need to be careful about that. If the Government are not careful and start hiding behind that technicality, it may be more difficult for SSAC to look at the successor benefits to tax credits and working tax credit, which would be a shame. I would not mind some reassurance on that.

Just for amusement, I discovered that the word “regulations” appears 380 times in the Bill.