Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Newby and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Monday 18th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, the truth is that the Government Chief Whip has put a brave face on a farce. The position is that the Commons decided last week that it would press for a rejection of no deal and an extension of Article 50. It has been perfectly clear all along that any such reasonable request would be accepted by the European Council at the end of this week, so the only basis on which the Government are pursuing these no-deal SIs is that they simply have no faith in their own ability to enact what the Commons has asked them to do and what the EU has said it is prepared to do.

I want to ask about the disappearing primary legislation relating to Brexit. Even if the Government were to get their deal through, there are a number of pieces of primary legislation that they say will be necessary at the point we leave the EU, particularly the immigration, Agriculture and Fisheries Bills. None yet has a scheduled date for Report in the House of Commons, which I assume means that they cannot come to this House on the planned schedule until after Easter. There will then be about eight weeks until 30 June, which is the point at which the Government say they wish their extension to come to an end and, presumably, leave the EU. May I have an assurance from the noble Lord that these pieces of primary legislation, which are deemed necessary—indeed, essential—by the Government, will be brought to your Lordships’ House, if the Government succeed in getting their deal through, in a timely manner, so that we do not have the same kind of farcical rush we have been expected to endure on other matters?

I also want to ask the Minister to deny the rumours that have been swirling around the House in recent days that the Government plan to curtail the Easter Recess and that, just as in February, noble Lords will be expected to be in Parliament, business or not, when they are currently planning to be away. Finally, given all the uncertainty surrounding the Government at the moment, will the Chief Whip give the House an undertaking that, in the light of what happens at the weekend, he will return to the House next Monday and explain what is going on?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I genuinely thank the Government Chief Whip for listening sympathetically and agreeing to the specific suggestion I made last Thursday. I hope this will create a precedent.

Further Discussions with the European Union under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union

Debate between Lord Newby and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, this is now the 11th debate or Statement on the Government’s withdrawal agreement and political declaration since last December. During the three months in which these debates have taken place, not a single thing has changed. The purgatory continues.

For a number of months, when my colleagues have become exasperated that Jeremy Corbyn appeared to set his face against supporting a referendum on the Brexit deal, I have sought to reassure them by using the analogy of the five year-old schoolboy who does not want to go to school. As he is being dragged to school by his parents, he stamps his foot and says, “I don’t want to go to school! It’s not fair! I’m not going to school!” He knows, of course, that he will have to go to school, but his amour propre will not allow him to admit it. Only when he crosses the school threshold does he stop his wailing and run to join his classmates. Mr Corbyn has now crossed the threshold.

This is a fair analogy of Mr Corbyn’s behaviour, but until yesterday, I did not think that it applied equally to the Prime Minister. Yet this is exactly what she has done with regard to an extension of Article 50. She has said publicly, all along, that 29 March is a sacrosanct departure date. She stamped her foot as late as the weekend to repeat this mantra but she has now proposed giving the Commons a vote to extend Article 50 for an unspecified number of months. She must have known for some time that she was going to have to shift her position but she has done so with the greatest reluctance, and in a manner which will enable her to blame the Commons for the decision which she will have flunked. She should herself be advocating a short extension on the basis of her conviction that her deal will succeed, for without an extension, it is simply impossible to get the necessary legislation through in an orderly manner.

When I debated this with Brexit Minister Chris Heaton-Harris on last Saturday’s “The Week in Westminster” programme, he said that everything would be on the statute book in time, but apparently only by dropping half the primary legislation which we had previously been told was necessary and by implying the use of emergency procedures to get the rest through. Can the Minister tell the House which pieces of legislation the Government believe they will need to pass before 29 March if their deal is approved by the Commons? Specifically, does it include the Agriculture, Fisheries, Trade and immigration Bills? We have repeatedly asked these questions but from the Government, answer comes there none.

Yesterday, the noble Baroness the Leader of the House said in respect of Brexit-related primary legislation that we,

“need to ensure that this House has adequate time to scrutinise it in the usual manner”.—[Official Report, 26/2/19; col. 148.]

Can the Minister explain how we will be able to scrutinise the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Bill in the usual manner? We will not know until 12 March whether the Government’s deal has been approved. If it has, that gives a mere two weeks to take the Bill through all its parliamentary stages. Will the Minister acknowledge that we would have to break our normal rules in considering legislation if we were to get the Bill through in time, and will he apologise to the House on behalf of his noble colleague the Leader for giving such a misleading impression yesterday? Therefore, the Prime Minister refused to contemplate extending Article 50 to give time for her deal, if it is passed, but she has been forced to concede a vote on the extension of Article 50 if, as is highly likely, it does not.

The purpose of any extension, as is clear both from the Cooper-Letwin initiative and the possible rebellion of members of her Cabinet and government more generally, is to ensure that we do not crash out without a deal on 29 March. If anybody had any doubts about why they should avoid no deal, the Government’s damning document of yesterday, Implications for Business and Trade of a No Deal Exit on 29 March 2019, should put them right. The noble Lord, Lord Livingston of Parkhead, summarised the position brilliantly yesterday when he described no deal as,

“not a negotiating card, but an act of wilful self-harm”.—[Official Report, 26/2/19; col. 154.]

There are going to be votes on 12 and 13 March, which are likely to lead to further rejection of the Government’s deal and a rejection of no deal. The following day there will be a vote—which is likely to pass—to ask the Government to request an extension of the Article 50 period. The danger is that everybody then relaxes. That would be a big mistake because the clock will still be ticking—just for slightly longer. The Government will still argue that no deal is on the table.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Can the noble Lord remind me: is that not the ides of March?

[Lord Newby]

I am afraid I did not have the benefit of a classical education, but I know that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie, will be able to answer the question.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Lord Newby and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Thursday 15th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I commiserate with the noble Baroness who had to repeat this Statement, because we know that she does not agree with it. It appears that she was one of 10 Cabinet Ministers who expressed severe reservations about the agreement. Will she explain her reservations in her reply? I think that the House would like to know.

There is a lot of real and mock surprise and indignation about the contents of the withdrawal agreement. Yet how could anybody reasonably expect it to be materially different from what has emerged? Once you accept a frictionless border in Northern Ireland, provisions such as those now in the agreement become inevitable. That was recognised by the Government in the agreement they reached with the EU last December and, incidentally, which they have spent the last 10 months denying. They have now reaffirmed that December commitment.

If the outcome on the transitional period and the backstop are predictable, I am genuinely shocked at the outline of the political declaration. In some ways, this is a much more important document because it covers our long-term relationship with the EU, not just the position during the transitional phase. I had expected the document to be layered with fudge, but I could not imagine that it would be so vague and unspecific—a mere seven pages.

It is vastly less detailed than the Chequers agreement, which listed some 68 programmes or bodies by name of which the UK wished to remain a member post Brexit. This document mentions hardly any. I believe that we are to get a somewhat extended version next week but, based on the seven pages we have before us today, it is unlikely to answer any of the difficult issues which remain. Fisheries and the European arrest warrant are but two of the myriad tricky issues that are clearly nowhere near being resolved. I cannot believe that the country would accept this pig-in-a-poke Brexit.

However, it is clear that we are not going to get to the point where these things matter, because the agreement document bears all the hallmarks of Monty Python’s dead parrot. It is bereft of life. In her statement last night, and again this morning, the Prime Minister admitted for the first time that there are three possible outcomes to the Brexit process. We can accept her deal, we can crash out without a deal, or we can remain. The noble Baroness has said many times that remain was not an option. The noble Lord, Lord Callanan, has probably said it hundreds of times.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Thousands.

[Lord Newby]

Or thousands, I stand corrected. That was never true. At least the Prime Minister now accepts reality. I am not by nature an avid reader of the Daily Express, but I caught its front page today and I agree with its headline: “It’s a deal—or no Brexit”. I agree. And given that it is now abundantly clear that the current deal has zero chance of passing through the Commons, and we know of course that the Commons would never vote for a ruinous no-deal outcome, remain is now the only viable option. This will of course require a referendum to get the endorsement of the people.

The Government are spending hundreds of millions of pounds preparing for a no-deal outcome, which they know will not happen. Will they now spend the extremely modest amount needed to prepare for a referendum, to be held next spring, which will put the Government’s deal to the people with an option to reject it and remain in the EU? Given that we have been told from the Dispatch Box umpteen times that a prudent Government prepare for all possible contingencies, and that they now accept that this is a possibility, would a failure to do so now not be a dereliction of duty on the Government’s part?

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Newby and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Report: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the first referendum was a mandate to the Government to negotiate Brexit. At the end of the process, a decision has to be taken on whether that mandate has been adequately fulfilled. The only question is whether the Commons alone or the Commons supported by the people should take that final decision.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

With due respect to my noble friend, the first referendum was in 1975, overwhelmingly in favour of the European Union.

[Lord Dobbs]

I point out to the noble Lord that in 1975 the European Union simply did not exist. He keeps coming out with all this imaginative stuff. I wish we could get back to the facts.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Newby and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I really think that in this point in the debate it is best if people do not revert back to what people said in 2016 or I shall start talking about what people wrote on the side of a bus. It would be completely unproductive.

With the amendment in my name, we are also debating referendum amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Foulkes. There are slight differences in emphasis between them, but on one thing we are all agreed: Brexit is the most important decision that this country will face for decades. Every person in the country will be profoundly affected by it and so every person should have their say on whether it is a future that they wish to embrace.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I beg leave to move Amendment 357 in my name.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Newby and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 28th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, this debate has ranged rather more widely than I had expected, and the noble Baroness has given us a very comprehensive answer, for which I am grateful. I was particularly intrigued by the reference by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, to George Thomson, who I remember very well. I see that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, is here; he will remember George Thomson, who represented Dundee before he became a Commissioner and was responsible for this major development within the European Community that we are talking about today.

He once told me that he was very excited at being selected as the candidate for the Member of Parliament for Dundee. He was employed by DC Thomson at the time and went to tell his employer that he had been selected as the prospective parliamentary candidate. He thought that his employer would be delighted. Instead, his employer said, “You realise if you’d stayed with us you could have gone on to be the editor of the Beano”. So instead of being editor of the Beano, he went on, thankfully, to do a very good job in the European Community.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord but as a representative of the sons-in-law of Lord Thomson of Monifieth, I should tell him that he was the editor of the Beano before he went on to a more serious job.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

How can I contradict a son-in-law? Without my noble friend Lord Liddle being present to advise me, I am not able to do so. I thought that my original story was quite funny; I wish it had been true. To return to the serious matter, because this is a serious matter, George Thomson left us a great legacy.

The noble Baroness has covered a lot of the issues. She has gone two-thirds of the way towards answering the points that I raised. She has given a very detailed and careful outline of the Government’s strategy, for which we are grateful, and has indicated that projects in the pipeline will be supported to the end of the current funding period, but it is beyond that that we are concerned about. We are concerned about continuity. That is something we need to pursue.

The noble Baroness also helped us a little on the UK shared prosperity fund and said that the Government would engage with that issue later this year. That could take us almost to the exit date, which will be a few months beyond that, so we need to be told about that soon. I hope that through a Written Answer or further discussion we might get a clearer indication of the timescale, otherwise, there will be a vacuum and hiatus there.

I will talk with my noble friend Lady Hayter outwith the Committee but we need to look at the Minister’s very comprehensive reply in detail and consider whether it would be appropriate to table an amendment along these lines on Report. I will withdraw my amendment but this is yet another example of the many dozens, if not hundreds, that we are discussing in this Chamber and outwith it where it would be an awful lot better if we just stayed in the European Union. Why are we having to deal with all these difficulties and problems all around the country, and in this case in the poorest areas of the country, when it could be completely unnecessary? In the next year and a bit, we may have the opportunity to give the British people a chance to re-examine whether we should continue to be members of the European Union. That point is not irrelevant to this amendment, but I beg leave to withdraw it.