Automated Vehicles Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Naseby and Baroness Randerson

Report stage
Tuesday 6th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I only spoke at Second Reading and was unable to take part in Committee. I think the House knows that I come from the world of aviation and, in terms of aviation, there is some similarity in the context that the noble Lord has covered this afternoon.

This is frontier technology. It happens to be on the ground, but those of us who have flown for Her Majesty’s Forces or flown privately can still take a great interest, in particular, in aviation. There is a need for those who are knowledgeable and not biased and are able to take time. One of the great problems in our society at the moment is time. When I look at what the Department for Trade and the Department for Transport are having to do, there may well be an argument for another body that is knowledgeable about what has been happening in the past and where things are going.

I thank the noble Lord opposite, and I hope my noble friend on the Front Bench will recognise that we are not having a Division on this—I assume—but that there ought to be further discussions on whether this is something we should look at more closely.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I added my name to Amendment 10, which relates to the ORR, because there are too many loose ends in the Bill in terms of the powers being granted to the Secretary of State and it is not specified where it goes after that.

We are dealing with some issues that are very closely aligned with those in Amendment 28: how the Government exercise the considerable power that they will have in relation to the development of this market.

To be totally frank, we do not need Department for Transport micromanagement. What we need is an independent body, with dedicated expertise, that will operate with safety considerations actually at the fore, because the development of this market will be badly compromised if there are huge safety issues that arise. It is important—really essential—that the development of this technology is rolled out with safety at its heart. As the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, stated, the CAA is an excellent example. It can be replicated by expanding the role of the ORR to take this under its wing and by looking closely at what the ORR does at the moment. It has the foundations that we need for something that can be developed pretty rapidly. I say to the Minister that I hope that the Government take this seriously and give it consideration. If it is not possible to give precision by Third Reading, hopefully it might be possible to do so by the time the Bill reaches the other place.

Heavy Commercial Vehicles in Kent (No. 1) (Amendment) Order 2021

Debate between Lord Naseby and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend on the Front Bench for expanding a little on what is in orders No. 1 and No. 2. I took the opportunity to have brief consultations with some hauliers in my former constituency of Northampton South. I will go through the paragraphs of the Explanatory Memorandum that I think are relevant; they are coterminous across the two orders.

My noble friend talked at some length about the sunset clause, in paragraph 2.6. In my experience in both Houses, the purpose of a sunset clause is that it is a time to review a situation. It ensures that the department involved knows that there is a particular time when the order, or whatever it may be, must be reviewed. If the Government of the day decide that they no longer need it, okay, it is finished. But my noble friend said that they would like to keep it, just in case they might need it at some future time. With great respect, that is a burden on the industry because hanging over it is the fact that, at any point in time, Her Majesty’s Government can suddenly bring it in again, even though it is in a modified form. My conclusion is that there should be a sunset clause, maybe in 10 years or whatever is an appropriate time, because that ensures that there is then a proper review. Otherwise, all we do is add to legislation sitting there to no purpose. That is my view on that.

On paragraph 7.1, has there been any report on the review of the effectiveness of Operation Brock? That is an important dimension, particularly to hauliers. There is no mention that there has been, but I would have thought that somebody must have done one and that, if they have, it ought to be published. On paragraph 7.3, is my noble friend saying that the requirements listed are definitely no longer needed at all—in which case, has this been publicised sufficiently to the industry?

Paragraph 7.6 is about the supply chain, which we all know is causing a problem. Do Her Majesty’s Government expect normally not to need any further legislation, as has happened over the recent change on inviting in foreign truck drivers? No legislation was needed and an announcement was made. While I am on that, I have to say frankly that it has gone down like a lead balloon among UK hauliers, for two reasons. First, the hauliers ask, “If the short-term people from the continent can be given multi-drops and pick-up cabotage in a difficult situation, why on earth are we UK hauliers not allowed to do that?” Quite frankly, there is a great problem out there—it is painfully obvious —so if we are giving it to the foreigners coming in, which I welcome, why are our own people not allowed to do the same for a short period as well?

Paragraph 10.2 on consultation says that there were just 14 responses. I am not quite sure how to read that. Is that 14 companies—if it is, it would have been helpful to list them as companies—or 14 people who are interested in the industry who have responded? What is it? The universe of that is really quite important. If it is companies, is it just companies using Dover, or is it some other universe? It would be enormously helpful if my noble friend could tell us what the universe is.

The haulier handbook in paragraph 11.1 is very welcome and the trade welcomes that. Regarding the 17 locations, I am not quite clear, but I assume that this affects all ports trading between the UK and the EU. I did not have time to work out how many ports there are, but it must be a fair number. So, if the 17 locations are all related to Dover, that is fine, but if they are across the UK then that is not quite so fine.

Finally, I raised the training of HGV drivers with my noble friend on the Floor of the House the other day. My noble friend will know that there was a scheme for professional career development loans for drivers and for some reason it was closed in 2019. The amount of the loans available were from £300 to £10,000. These were for families that were probably not that well off and probably could not find that money very easily. If we have a shortage of HGV drivers—which we appear to have—why on earth was the scheme closed to new entrants in 2019? I do not expect an answer today, but can my noble friend have a look at that situation and see whether we should not be reopening that straightaway?

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I start by thanking the Minister for her explanation. I share some of the noble Lord’s concerns. I have real concerns about these SIs. Although they seem to be perfectly reasonable attempts to introduce a more systematic way of dealing with the pressures on Kent roads and ports, especially Dover, in practice this is yet another step in the creeping accumulation of powers by this Government. This is an issue to which our attention was drawn by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.

This is an unusual example, because they are SIs that were introduced for one reason; that did not occur, but the Government are using the opportunity to take away the sunset clause and make it a permanent situation. They were introduced under cover of emergency procedures, hence without the usual consultation and safeguards, and are now being converted into long-term measures. This general trend in a number of pieces of legislation is exacerbated by Covid and the pandemic—although that is not relevant in this particular case.

In practice, these amending orders remove the sunset clauses in existing legislation. They make the powers that make up the response which is Operation Brock a permanent feature. The county of Kent will live under a series of extraordinary measures with certain categories of vehicles requiring passports to enter the county. Operation Brock is now to be used as a response to unforeseen disruption; for example, bad weather or industrial action and, I assume, other forms of unforeseen disruption as well. But these are occasional disruptions, and they happen across the UK as a whole, not just in Kent, so there is always the danger that this will be seen as a precedent.

My unease is even greater because when the Government originally introduced these measures, they anticipated—I have to say, I believed them—that there would be long queues on motorways because of new port procedures following our leaving the EU.

In fact, that has not happened, partly because the number of HGVs using the motorways has fallen, partly because there are not any drivers, or at least anything like the number that there used to be, because there has been a general falling-off in levels of trade with the EU, and because the trucks that used to take the land bridge between Northern Ireland and continental Europe now go largely via the Republic and straight down to the rest of the EU. Added together, these issues have meant a reduction in the number of HGVs, so there has not been the level of queuing. The Government took other measures which undoubtedly alleviated the possibilities of queuing. Although it complained vociferously about it, after the first few weeks, the industry became better prepared in terms of the paperwork than it was feared that there might be.

Kent access permits, which the first order is concerned with and as the noble Lord has pointed out, are undoubtedly an additional bureaucratic hurdle for the logistics trade at an already difficult time. It is yet another piece of paper, another form to be completed. I am interested in the practicality of this. Can the Minister explain how often these powers have been used? She referred to that briefly, but can she give us a little more detail about how often these powers have been used so far and how long Operation Brock has been in force on these occasions? Also, how is the logistics industry informed that Operation Brock is active? Someone might be aware that it is snowing, but perhaps not if they are in Newcastle and it is snowing in Kent.

This is an additional piece of bureaucracy for local hauliers too, albeit so that they can continue to use local roads, which obviously is important for them. Paragraph 10.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum referred to the consultation and said that there were 14 responses, and that the majority were in favour. What were the views of the industry representatives? I am particularly interested in the views of local councils because they represent local residents, who have had their lives seriously disrupted by traffic issues in the past. It was hoped that Operation Brock would solve this.

Paragraph 13.2 says:

“The vast majority of HCV drivers travelling via the Channel Tunnel and Port of Dover work for foreign hauliers”.


We know that this balance has changed in recent months, so it would be very useful for all of us if the Minister could update us on the most recent percentages and the balance that there is now between UK domestic hauliers and foreign hauliers using those routes. I look forward to the Minister’s responses.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Lord Naseby and Baroness Randerson

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 23rd November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I am pleased to see some amendments from the Government in this group. It may be the start of a little bit of emotional intelligence on the Government’s part, to see the damage that has been done to trust and confidence between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations on this issue.

However, on its own, government Amendment 55, for example, is too weak, in saying that in order to be appointed to the OIM panel, all you need is knowledge of the internal market in the different countries of the UK. That implies to me that anyone who worked, for example, for Tesco—I am not picking on Tesco; other supermarkets are available—in its London head office would, of course, know that there are different markets in different parts of the UK. However, they would not have the depth of knowledge to understand, for example, the importance of signage in the Welsh language in different parts of Wales or the difference in marketing approach required in different parts of Northern Ireland, bearing in mind the history of those parts. It is a subtle business, and it needs strength and understanding in depth.

The truth is that the OIM is being shoehorned into the CMA simply because the Government have made a promise that they are not going to create any more such bodies. They can go ahead saying, hand on heart, that the CMA is the body and the OIM is simply an arm of it—no new body has been created. But, to be honest, it is not a neat and natural fit.

Amendment 56 goes a little way towards seeking the consent of the devolved Administrations to an appointment, but it still leaves all the cards in the Government’s hand. Taken alongside Amendment 57, it makes it clear that if the devolved Administrations withhold agreement, after one month the Government can go ahead anyway—yet they might be withholding agreement for a very good and clear reason. I urge the Minister to look again at the stronger amendments, Amendments 54 and 59, tabled in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd. If the Government mean what they say about genuinely wanting to respect the devolved Administrations and treat them with respect, what harm do the Government think it would do to allow them to appoint one board member each? The Government’s response is that it would make the CMA political. That in itself portrays the fact that the Government have a political approach of their own to this problem.

In conclusion, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, pointed out, UK government Ministers are in fact—[Inaudible]—and then they change hats to become Ministers of the UK. This is a problem, and if anyone does not understand that that is a problem, it underlines a lack of understanding and experience of devolution. Anyone who had that experience and understanding would realise that the Government must give a little bit more to satisfy trust among the different Governments of the UK.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on the Front Bench. Once again we see the benefit of a good Committee stage, with someone listening and coming back with a series of amendments which all strengthen the Bill. I particularly like the clarification in Amendment 56, and I was delighted to read Amendment 61. However, regarding Amendment 54, I have had the privilege of chairing four different companies and sitting on other boards, some of which had certain dimensions to them as a business that any wise chairman would wish to make sure were covered.

I am also a political animal. Anybody who has sat for a marginal seat and kept it understands the sensitivity of varying wards, varying interests et cetera, and I ask my noble friend to reflect a little on Amendment 54. Certainly I do not believe that there is anything in Amendment 59 worth having, but Amendment 54 is crucial. Whether the wording is right or not, nevertheless, the devolved powers are a very important dimension of the whole of this internal market. Somehow, as other noble Lords have said, they must have ownership of it. The CMA board is in essence one of the absolutely key elements of that. I do not expect an answer tonight, but I suggest that the Minister and his colleagues should sit back and argue this through. I understand what my noble friend Lady Noakes said. In one sense she is right but, with my political hat on, I am not so sure. So I ask the Minister to reflect a little on Amendment 54, although I do not expect him to accept it tonight.