Outcome of the European Union Referendum

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, my European involvement started in 1963, when I joined the Young European Managers’ Association. I followed it up after being elected MP for Northampton South in 1974—with princely majorities of 179 and 142—and I campaigned hard in 1975. I imagine a number of your Lordships also took part in that campaign. The staying in Europe side was behind in the early polls, yet the campaign was successful. I also spent eight years on the Council of Europe, in particular on the health committee. I was the proud chairman of the group that set about drawing up a European-wide protocol for autopsies after the disaster of the “Herald of Free Enterprise”, when over a dozen nations had separate procedures for autopsies.

Understandably perhaps, I voted for remain. I did so not for reasons of trade, but primarily because of my belief in the importance of security and peace across Europe. The Prime Minister decided for his own reasons to call a non-binding referendum. He must have known it would be a huge risk; it was a huge risk, and one we now have to deal with.

The people have spoken, 33 million of them. They have spoken with great clarity about what they want, and they want out. It is Parliament’s responsibility to make that happen. It is the responsibility of Back-Benchers like myself to probe and ask questions of those who will make it happen. First, there is that short word, “time”. Time is not on our side; it is a luxury no one can afford, particularly when it comes to choosing the next Prime Minister.

I have to ask: why can we not speed up the whole process? Clearly, the chairman of the 1922 Committee has speeded up his element of the process and I congratulate him. Just eight days after the result, we have had the first round of voting this evening. As I said, he is to be congratulated, but I am afraid I do not congratulate the chairman of my party for resigning the minute the decision was made to choose Brexit. When it comes to the responsibility of people in my party—and I have been in the Conservative Party for over 50 years—I thought the top of the party would show leadership. There is not much leadership when there is a bit of gunfire and you disappear out of the trenches. I am appalled, quite frankly, that the chairman disappeared. But it goes deeper than that.

I rang my association early last week and asked, “Have you heard anything from central office?” The answer came: “No, nothing”. I ask the same question of the Front Bench. As a paid up member of my party for 50 years, I do not know who is running central office at this point in time. I have had no communication, nor, to the best of my knowledge, has my association. Frankly, that is not good enough.

Why do we not speed up the second stage? It is pretty clear that there will be another vote on Thursday and one of the remaining four will go. If one looks at history, one suspects that we may be down to two by the weekend.

[Lord Cormack]

Two have gone already. We are down to three now.

[Lord Naseby]

My noble friend has information that I am not aware of. If we are down to three, then it is certainly true that by Thursday night we will be down to two. If we can run a by-election in four weeks when somebody dies in office and there is no candidate—we have done it several times in recent years—and if we can run a general election campaign in three weeks, why on earth are we waiting for eight and a half or nine and a half weeks to elect a future leader of the Conservative Party? I do not understand why we have to wait. What is so magical about 9 September?

I am quite prepared for Parliament to sit an extra 10 days until the end of July. We used to sit until the end of July and most of us made our plans on the basis that that was likely to be the case this year, so why on earth do we not have the recess start 10 days later? We would then know that we had a Prime Minister in situ who had the whole of the long recess to sit down quietly and deal with the huge challenges that she—I imagine it will be she—will have to face. As I said, why is there so little urgency?

Do the Government not understand the fragility of the confidence out there? I can understand why people are sceptical: the Prime Minister has never made a decision on London airport, and that is a tragedy in itself because it is central to the whole development of this part of England. We need to get on and make some decisions.

Finally, what should we do now? I believe that we have to have a leader who stood up for and believed in Brexit. I make it clear—there is no point in hiding it—that I believe that Andrea Leadsom is the right person. I worked with her on my Private Member’s Bill. She is tough and intelligent, and she fought a good campaign for Brexit. One key issue was immigration, and I question whether the present Home Secretary, who is dealing with that policy—and how disastrous it has been—is really the right person to take us forward.

I ask the Front Bench whether it would not be better to clear up this whole process, get the Prime Minister elected, leave it to her to decide what initiatives need to be taken, and not set up all these mini-groups at No. 10, the Cabinet Office and BIS. It should be left to the incoming leader to do all that. If we choose that route, we will have a Prime Minister who has the time, the energy and the resources to deal with these things. To me, the statement that Andrea Leadsom made about the 3 million EU citizens here having their position safeguarded was an indication of the leadership that she can and will give us.

Economy: High Street Trade

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Tuesday 10th May 2016 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Naseby]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have plans to undertake an urgent review into the financial sustainability of high street trade in England and Wales in the light of the growth of online retail and the increase in overhead costs for shops trading on the high street.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, in asking the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, I declare an interest in that a member of my family is a retailer.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, there is no plan to undertake a review in England. In Wales this is a matter for the Welsh Assembly. The Government have taken action. Our high streets will benefit from the £6 billion business rates support package announced by the Chancellor at the Budget. We have also given more than £18 million to fund successful initiatives such as Love Your Local Market and the Great British High Street competition, and announced a digital pilot programme.

[Lord Naseby]

I recognise the work that Her Majesty’s Government have done to help retailers. Nevertheless, in essence it amounts to a modest amount of tinkering. Is my noble friend aware that 36 major chains have gone bankrupt, thousands of other retailers have stopped trading and retailers are faced with ever-increasing overheads, declining footfall and increasing competition from online? Against that background, will Her Majesty’s Government review the statement that the Minister has just made and recognise that we need a fairer tax covering both retailers and online trading, and that possibly that means a turnover tax rather than a property tax?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for recognising what the Government have done. He talked about various chains going bankrupt and the declining footfall on our high streets. In fact, footfall is now increasing and some high streets have responded very well to the changing patterns of the high street. The ones that have responded well are seeing very good results; for example, in my own town of Altrincham the market has almost completely revitalised the town centre.

Aircraft: Laser Pointers

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Tuesday 8th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I think that my noble friend Lord Brabazon was first on his feet.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

The noble Lord is right and, under general product safety regulations and transport legislation, we of course look at all these areas. Clearly, there have been recent incidents involving aircraft, which have concerned us all, but, equally, this could apply to trains, lorries or even cyclists, I suspect.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords—

[Baroness O'Cathain (Con)]

My Lords—

Strathclyde Review

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, it may help if I explain my background as Chairman of Ways and Means in the other place. First, it was a post that I held when the Government of the day had a small majority rather similar to that of the present Government. Secondly, we took through the Maastricht treaty, which has probably been the most controversial piece of legislation since the war, with four clauses, 500 amendments and four all-night sittings. Our guidance then was not convention; it was that wonderful bible Erskine May, and, when quoted from the chair, every Member accepted the ruling.

Furthermore, there was a secondary role for the position of Chairman of Ways and Means and it related to SIs. They were handled primarily by Speaker’s Counsel and the clerks, but when an SI was controversial I was shown it and, if I thought it really was controversial, I shared that with the Leader of the House. If we both thought it was controversial, the Secretary of State was called in and the matter was discussed in some depth. I suspect that that procedure has gone by the board. I cannot believe that it happens today, otherwise the SI that arrived here would never have been in the state in which it was, and it most definitely should not have ever got to this House. I say in parenthesis that I suggested to my party that the whole thing should be pulled.

Of course, there is the other side of the coin. We all knew that there was a convention in this House. We all knew that this was a major issue with £4 billion at stake. A number of my former colleagues from the other place sitting on the opposition Benches did not vote for the Motion before the House that night—they saw how important it was that that particular convention was not abused. However, we are perhaps all politicians and the temptation was for the Opposition to give the Government a bloody nose, which they certainly did. We have to recognise that that is what happened.

My noble friend Lord Strathclyde was asked to look at this issue. He has produced a report with three recommendations. I reject the first but think that both the second and third are possible. If option 3 has more certainty, I should like to know what safeguards there are to ensure that the other place does think again and does not just nod through a measure, producing exactly the same result. There needs to be some clarity there. I also commend my noble friend on the last paragraph on page 6 of his report. It says in patent terms, “You must look again at what used to happen to SIs and clearly is not happening today”.

However, I am sorry to say that I question Appendix C to the report. I have worked with the Library and have carried out research using legislation.gov.uk. That shows that in recent years, on a calendar basis, the volume of SIs has increased—from around 2,000 in 2009 up to nearly 3,500 in 2014, and, looking at the graph in the appendix, it seems that in 2015 the record will go even higher. It is not just a matter of the numbers. When I used to look at SIs, they consisted of just two pages; now, on average they consist of four pages and some are considerably longer. Added to that is the size of an average Bill today, which I would guess is at least double what it used to be in the early 1990s.

From that research I am now much clearer about the issues. I think the word “convention” has to go. Of course, we have our Companion. I have it here, and it is a wonderful document, but the other place has Erskine May. Erskine May has 1,097 pages and our Companion has just 296, including the contents and index. But the really interesting point is that there are 432 pages in Erskine May of direct relevance to and with mention of your Lordships’ House. I suggest to my noble colleagues that the time has come for a complete review of the Companion, including the parts that are in Erskine May, and for putting the whole lot together. Colleagues may ask what that would really achieve. It would give this House, in our bicameral Parliament, a framework similar to the Commons but geared to our needs and to the needs highlighted by Erskine May on the law, privileges, proceedings and usage of Parliament as relevant to your Lordships’ House.

In conclusion, unless we take such action ourselves along these principles, I foresee ever-increasing arguments and diktats from Governments of the day. Surely it is wiser to pre-empt such action and produce our own comprehensive equivalent of Erskine May.

Syria: UK Military Action

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I want to make clear that I broadly support the Government’s motion in another place. I commend the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Baglan. I think that the Government would be very wise to reflect on what he has said. It has taken five years for the diplomatic dimension to get started. As has already been made clear by many noble Lords, it is starting but is pretty slow. Somehow or other, the UK has to put real energy into making it move forward considerably faster.

I suspect that I am the only former RAF pilot in this House who had anything to do with Suez. I can remember flying at weekends to catch up, in preparation for the continuation of the Suez exercise. However, it collapsed so quickly that I did not see active service. I hope and pray that the mission of our own RAF today will be much more successful than that one was.

To my noble friend on the Front Bench from the Ministry of Defence, I say: will he make sure that those crew members and support staff who are going to be rushed out to Akrotiri and other places, are remembered this Christmas, and that we do not have complaints that this, that and the other have not happened, and the families at home have been neglected? Can we make a special effort to make sure that they are looked after properly?

Of course, as a former RAF pilot, I recognise above all that, despite developments in bombing techniques and so on, bombing is not enough. I do not need to repeat the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, earlier today. Again, I think the Government would be well advised to reflect on it.

I have been chairman of the All-Party British-Sri Lanka Group, and draw a parallel with the Tamil Tiger war. There, they had 28 years of war; we have had five so far. I do not want to see any war of that length here. The House needs to recognise, though, why the Tigers were so successful. They were single-minded and well trained, with plenty of resources and money flowing in from the diaspora all over the world. They were putting child soldiers on the front line, with soldiers being dressed as civilians. The same will happen with ISIS. We have to find a way to stop the money flowing, which is flowing from this country and the whole of Europe, into ISIS. We have to stop the ammunition getting there—we can talk to our Belgian friends, who are usually a very good source of ammunition.

Somehow, we have to get to a situation where we have a strong, well-organised, committed, enthusiastic ground force. Frankly, I do not see how that is going to come from the 70,000 that we are being told about. We have to be realistic: is it not time for Her Majesty’s Government to show some realism and recognise, as the French appear to be doing now, that Assad’s army, with his allies in Hezbollah and Iran, have the conviction to deal with ISIS? That is the primary target that has to be dealt with. If they are successful—and I believe that they will be—that will be the end of the fourth Sunni-Shia war. How long will it take? Perhaps 18 months, from the day that we actually start in a co-ordinated fashion.

Finally, we need never to forget that wars often have strange results. After the Second World War, Churchill, our hero, was thrown out by the electorate. After the Sri Lankan war, Mahinda Rajapaksa, hero of the Sri Lankans, was thrown out at the next election. Who knows? Perhaps, if we ensure that Assad’s forces do win the war, he might be thrown out as well.

House of Lords Reform

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Tuesday 15th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, as a reasonably active Back-Bencher, I want first to pay my tribute to the current and previous Lord Speakers and to the Front Benches of the political parties, because I sense the beginnings of a unanimity that we require action and that they are going to drive it forward. It might be invidious to mention four colleagues, but I think that we should pay tribute to the noble Lords, Lord Norton, Lord Cormack and Lord Steel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman.

On size, I think it really is quite simple: it should be 50 fewer than the Commons. I do not know why we have to go for some complicated computation; it should just be 50 fewer than whatever the House of Commons is. I cannot think that anybody is going to vote against that.

I had the privilege for five years of being Chairman of Ways and Means. I sat many hours in the chair—much longer than the Lord Speakers sit here. That teaches one to observe, and I sit here on the fourth row because I like to observe what is happening. What have I observed recently in relation to tonight’s debate? First, perhaps against what many of the sceptics thought, retirement seems to work: those taking retirement have thought about it, discussed it with their families and discussed it in terms of their own ambitions in life, and recognised that the time has come to retire. Against that, I say thank you to the House authorities who make it possible for those who have retired to use the Library and limited facilities. It may be that the time has come to wonder whether there should not be something comparable to what is in the other place, which is an organisation for those who have retired. Doubtless I shall be among those who will retire in the not-too-distant future and I would help to make that happen.

I also observe, and this is across all parties, that, frankly, there are those today who attend and do not take part, and I think that it is incumbent on the leaderships of the parties to have a quiet word with them and suggest that their retirement be pretty imminent. There are still those who do not attend at all or hardly at all, and I cannot think what their objections would be to being leant on to take retirement but of course to keep their title.

The noble Lord, Lord Steel, mentioned the 80 age limit for those at the end of the Parliament. I fall into that category; I am willing to accept that. I am not, frankly—maybe I am one of the awkward squad—one who favours having any exceptions to that. It is an age criterion, and if it is an age criterion then it would apply to everybody and there should not be any exceptions at all.

I also observe that some colleagues might face some degree of hardship if they had to leave because of one policy or another. Again, in another place there is a hardship fund. It works well. I sit as a trustee of the parliamentary pension fund, as colleagues will know, and that works extremely well. The fund might need a bit of pump-priming to get it going but it is incumbent on all of us, in a similar way as happens with Members of Parliament, to make some contribution to it. I certainly would have no objection to that at all.

On the matter of hereditary Peers, in all honesty I cannot see why there should be another by-election. From now on, if somebody dies as a hereditary Peer, that attendance should lapse and slowly the numbers would come down.

It is difficult for my noble friend on the Front Bench and the Leader of the Opposition—and, indeed, the leader of the Liberal party—to try to come to a numbers agreement. Certainly in the time since I have been a Member of this House following the removal of significant numbers of hereditary Peers, neither of the two leading parties has had a majority in this House. The key to that, as we have discussed several times, is the Salisbury convention and what is in the manifesto. There is a need for clarity that the Government of the day should get their business, although it is part of the role of the revising Chamber, if necessary, to ask the other House to think again, and to think again at least twice, and then to give in. That in itself, if implemented properly, would be a controlling factor.

On the reverse side of the coin is the numbers coming to us. I am a loyal member of the Conservative Party but, frankly, 45 more Members is too many. I do not understand why there was not more sensitivity at No. 10 about that, given the discussions that had gone on before. I also do not understand why, in today’s world, the honours list is not being used in the way that it used to be. About 25 or 30 years ago it was quite common for hard-working people within the parties, who had helped and worked with the parties, to get CBEs if they were young enough; or if they looked about ready for retirement they would get a knighthood. Those were fully justified. At the moment it seems that those awards are not being offered and people have to come to the Lords. That is absolutely wrong.

It is wholly unfair on the advisers who are coming that they will not be allowed to speak. They will find that an embarrassment themselves, and it would have been much wiser if someone had reflected on it. They will not feel themselves to be full Members of this House, which is not a good idea at all. I finish by saying that just before the House rose for the general election, I asked whether it was not time, since we do not vote on money Bills or on going to war, that we had a vote at general elections. Certainly those who have retired should be given the vote in general elections.

Housing Associations: Right to Buy

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Tuesday 9th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The right reverend Prelate is absolutely correct when he says that rural communities are different. The development of that particular policy is ongoing, and details will be set out in due course.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

My Lords—

Legislative Scrutiny: Digitalisation

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

I support the point made by the noble Lord opposite about a separate channel. If you tune in regularly, you will find something of the order of five or six new channels a week on television. Against that background, I cannot see why it is not a priority to find the resources to ensure that there is a proper channel for the revising Chamber that we represent here in the House of Lords.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The point I am trying to make is that new technology allows for access to more Chambers than has been possible before. In an analogue world, there was one television channel that could view only one Chamber at one time. Streaming via the internet, all the Chambers operating in the United Kingdom are accessible to everybody simultaneously.

House of Lords

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Tuesday 6th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, it is particularly useful to hear from a noble Lord who joined us just under two years ago and to listen to him reflect on his life as a working Peer, which is clearly what he is. I concur with his views on the Appointments Commission. The balance has gone wrong and he is quite right to say that the public outside do not understand why the balance between the Cross-Benchers and the political appointees should be so skewed one way. I should like to concur with those who have thanked my good friend the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, for making the debate today possible.

It has been my privilege to be in politics for 50 years this year. I first got involved with the London Borough of Islington, but not surprisingly I was not successful there in 1966. I spent 23 years in the other place, always in a marginal seat, which is an experience that not too many noble Lords have had, and subsequently I have been in your Lordships’ House. I have listened to both the noble Lord, Lord Williams, and my colleague and noble friend Lord Strathclyde saying that in their judgment this House is too large. As an aside, I was surprised that my noble friend Lord Strathclyde did not mention anything about the hereditary Peers or, indeed, the agreement that I understand was reached when I first came here that at some stage, when the reform took place, the hereditary Peers were to end. There needs to be a degree of clarification of what that now means in the context of 2015.

However, leaving that aside, the problem is not just the size of the House. The problem is the perception of the public—whom we serve and who pay all our allowances—that this House is, in particular, too old and, secondly, too large, which it probably is. In my judgment, as someone who has spent 25 years in the communications industry, in the world of advertising, the perception as you go around—which most noble Lords who are still active do—is that the age profile is too old. That issue needs to be addressed.

I have listened to a number of proposals throughout the day. My noble friend Lord Wei certainly came up with a novel proposal this evening, and I hope that whoever looks at how we move forward will look at it in some depth, perhaps contrasting it with the proposal of my noble friend Lord Jopling—who is not in his place at the moment—which, until hearing my noble friend Lord Wei, I was basically in favour of.

I have no problems with the proposal from the Labour Party that some time in the Parliament in which I am 80—which will be the next Parliament—I should retire, if necessary at the end of it. I am perfectly fit now and I am sure that I will, hopefully, be perfectly fit then, but I have no problem with that if it is to be the agreed strategy forward.

I will make two other short comments. The new retirement scheme is greatly to be welcomed, although those who have commented on it are right when they say that we have no real understanding yet, based on just a few months, of what the effect of the new retirement scheme will be on our senior colleagues in terms of age. My suspicion is that it will help, because it provides for those who are in the upper quartile—as I am now, I think, at 78—a proper way to end one’s political career, in the knowledge that one can come back a little bit afterwards and keep up friendships and contacts, and thus stay mentally alive. I welcome that.

I would very much vote against any form of financial compensation for anyone leaving. That is entirely wrong. After all, it is a privilege to have served society, whether in the other place or in this place, and I do not expect to be compensated for doing something that I have greatly enjoyed and to which I hope I have made a contribution. I certainly do not want any financial compensation. However, I have the privilege of being a trustee on the parliamentary pension scheme. Within the structure of that scheme, an active provision for a hardship fund exists. It is done scrupulously honestly and in confidence. I believe, as someone who observes your Lordships’ House fairly closely, and having perhaps observed this as Chairman of Ways and Means, that there are a number of our colleagues who might be eligible for such help. Understandably, they are too proud to mention it, but those of us who watch these things—I am sure that would be true of both Whips’ Offices—perhaps know who they are. I see no reason why we as a House should not produce something comparable to the scheme in the other place. If it would help the committee that would be responsible for looking at this, I would be more than happy to volunteer, with the officers from the parliamentary pension scheme, to put together a draft structure for consideration by the committee, if that met your Lordships’ requirements.

I do not really want to say any more this evening because we have had a very full debate. However, I genuinely say that the timing for this is right. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Maxton, has left but he is one noble Lord with whom I would disagree totally. The idea that the whole world’s political structure has to be analysed before we decide to do anything is, in my judgment, totally wrong. We should get on and do something. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, was right when he said we should get on and do it, before the election. Let us get started on it and take this thing forward. It is too important to our nation to be left to some time in the future.

Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting and Philippines

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The right reverend Prelate makes an extremely wise point about the long-term future. I am grateful for what he says about the short-term response, although, as he rightly says, a lot of that is down to the natural generosity and human feeling of the British people in terms of their charitable response. The Government are glad to have been able to play their part alongside them in increasing the amount of aid that they have made available.

The right reverend Prelate is obviously also right that there is a difference between the short-term crisis response and what one can do longer term. As he has said, DfID was working with the Philippine Government prior to the emergency on some of the issues which he mentioned which come from climate change. Certainly, helping those countries invest in homes and infrastructure that in future would be better able to support some of these natural disasters is the wise thing to do. I am sure that through the work of DfID, the Government will continue to reflect on that.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

As chairman of the all-party group I welcome enormously that the Prime Minister went to Colombo. Is my noble friend aware that the reaction from the nearly 500,000 Sri Lankans living in the UK, whether they be Sinhalese, Tamil or Muslim, has not been at all positive? My e-mail has virtually collapsed because people are deeply concerned at the way in which the Prime Minister raised, in their view, an unbalanced view of what progress had been made, particularly the manner in which it was delivered to the President of Sri Lanka? I have to say that I partially share that concern.

As we move forward, which is the key to all this, does my noble friend, as he sits in the Cabinet, recognise that it has been only four years and that in those four years there is peace? There are no bombs and you can go where you like. You do not have to have your cards with you and there are no checkpoints. That is enormous progress in four years. After all, we took nine years to get rid of rationing. Even as one of those who suffered from the bombing in London, we did not succeed in producing an ideal situation within four years.

Perhaps I may bear on the House for a moment; two dimensions are involved. First, we now know the number of people who disappeared, of whom, sadly, some 600 were children, who I suspect are child soldiers. We now know that. There is a commission. I think that it would be great progress if the International Committee of the Red Cross were to join that commission, because it has helped in producing the numbers.

Secondly, we now have established the numbers who were killed. We know from the Tamil teachers who did the audit that the number is somewhere around 9,000, which is a number that we can handle. Will my noble friend please give maximum encouragement to the processing of those 9,000 to make sure that we find out exactly who they were?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I certainly accept the point. The Prime Minister was very clear in his Statement that one cannot disassociate oneself from the awful history of Sri Lanka over the past 30 years and the history of bloodshed and civil strife that it has gone through. That having been said, I do not accept that the Prime Minister made his case to the President of Sri Lanka in an unbalanced way. There is quite a lot of contention around figures of the sort to which my noble friend refers. That is precisely why my right honourable friend the Prime Minister stressed the importance of having a credible transparent and independent inquiry to get to the bottom of what happened during the closing phases of the civil war and then addressing the situation so that it is possible on that basis to move forward with reconciliation to a shared understanding of what the future might be like. Until that has happened, it is very hard to work out how there can be reconciliation that will last.