Illegal Migration Bill
Debate between Lord Murray of Blidworth and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem(1 year, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, before noble Lords continue, there are a lot of people wanting to ask questions, so I implore noble Lords to ask short questions that will elicit short answers from the Minister. Let us continue with the noble Lord, Lord Campbell.
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)
My Lords, the Minister mentioned the rule of law. Why is it, then, that every time this Government find themselves in difficulty, they seek refuge in illegality? They did so in Part 5 of the markets Bill, they did so in relation to the Northern Ireland protocol, and now we have the admission, to which the Minister has just referred, that the provisions in this Bill may be illegal. Of course, we have to take that together with the opinion expressed by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. The unwillingness to give certification in the usual form is, in a sense, corroborated by what the UNHCR has said.
Even the title of this Bill is ambiguous. It is called the “Illegal Migration Bill”, but we are not clear yet —it is at least becoming clear to me—that it is not the migration that is illegal but the Bill itself. I finish by repeating a point already made: growing up in politics in this country, I have been told many times that the Conservative Party is the party of law and order. I have stopped believing that this evening.
Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)
I thank the noble Lord for his remarks. The Conservative Party very much remains the party of law and order. It is this Parliament that decides the laws for this country, and it is this Parliament that must decide who can enter and when they can enter. It is our view that these measures are compatible with international law. That does not—whatever the noble Lord might suggest—render the measures in this Bill in any way illegal.
Migration and Economic Development Partnership with Rwanda
Debate between Lord Murray of Blidworth and Lord Campbell of Pittenweem(2 years ago)
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Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)
As I have already noted to the House, there is no in principle position that children may not be removed under the scheme; it is simply not presently the intention of the Government to do so. As I made clear only recently at Questions, age assessment is something that the department is looking at very closely in light of the new provisions under the Nationality and Borders Act. As the noble Baroness will be aware, since 2016, in half of the cases where age was disputed, the age was ultimately found to be over 18, so we have to be very careful about people who maintain that they are children. Of course, it is very important that those under 18 are carefully protected from those who claim to be under 18 but are not. As I say, it is the intention of the Government to remove families at a point in future when the Rwanda scheme is ready for that purpose.
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that this Statement could have been written by Dr Pangloss? I pray in aid the paragraph which says that:
“Being relocated to Rwanda is not a punishment but an innovative way of addressing a major problem to redress the imbalance between illegal and legal migration routes.”
No one has asked a potential migrant whether they think it is not a punishment. I would be very surprised indeed if those faced with such a decision did not take exactly the view that it is. It is true that the Court of Appeal has held that the scheme is legal, but I doubt very much that the legal consideration of this proposal will rest with the Court of Appeal. Finally, the Government seem to say that it is not only legal but moral. We all have to define our own moral compass; I have to tell the Minister that I do not define mine in any way that supports this Government or this proposal.
Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)
I reassure the noble Lord that it is not a punishment. The purpose of the policy is to remove the incentive to make dangerous and illegal journeys into this country, under the provisions of the Nationality and Borders Act.
Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)
I am very grateful to the noble Lord, whom I hope will forgive me. I must have been focusing so intently on his question about costs that I did not hear this. My apologies. The court considered all the allegations made by the UNHCR and the parties in the litigation concerning the safety of Rwanda and concluded that the Secretary of State was correct that Rwanda was a safe country, including for LGBT people.
Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)
With respect, I think that it is an answer, so there it is.