Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Murphy of Torfaen and Glyn Davies

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Paul Murphy]

It is a great privilege to speak on Third Reading of a Bill that my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) indicated we will not oppose, for a variety of reasons. The Secretary of State referred to this as a milestone Bill. I have sat through 26 years of Welsh Bills, and I have to say that I do not think this is a milestone. There are some good parts to it, but a real milestone was the Bill introduced by the Labour Government after the 1997 general elections, which set up the Welsh Assembly.

The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) suggested in a previous debate that the Westminster parties, by which I assume he meant the Conservatives, Labour and the Liberal Democrats—he is actually a member of a Westminster party, as we meet here in Westminster, rather than Dudley or anywhere else—were obstructive when dealing with devolution matters. Had he said that in 1978, he would have been absolutely right. I was treasurer of the “No Assembly” campaign in Wales and deeply opposed devolution in the late ’70s, but I changed my mind, and for a variety of reasons, including all those years of Conservative government. He and his Plaid Cymru colleagues must reflect on this: no Labour Government would have meant no Assembly and no Welsh Government. Obviously we were helped by the pro-devolution parties—the Liberal Democrats and his party.

The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) suggested that a Labour Secretary of State might have “chickened out” of extending the Assembly’s powers. I see no evidence for that, having been a Secretary of State for Wales twice. I certainly would not have chickened out. Indeed, when this Bill was introduced I enthusiastically supported the previous Secretary of State, who I thought showed great courage in introducing it as a Conservative, and I agreed with her.

[Glyn Davies]

I would like to reassure the right hon. Gentleman that I do not think the Labour party would have chickened out had he been Secretary of State.

[Paul Murphy]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that.

The devolution of extra powers was supported overwhelmingly by the people of Wales in the referendum, including in my constituency, which, having been one of the most sceptical and anti-devolution constituencies in the whole of Wales, changed its mind. I think that there has been a sea shift in how people perceive devolution. People understand it more, although not completely. We heard earlier about the Welsh television surveys indicating that many people did not know who ran the health service, for example. There will still be some of that, but there has been a change none the less.

To that extent, I welcome aspects of the Bill. The change to the name “Welsh Government” might seem trivial to many people, but it is significant. I think that the fixed terms, the ban on dual membership and other aspects of the Bill are greatly to be welcomed. Even though we disagree on how the business of taxation should be introduced in Wales, the fact that the Government have introduced the idea that we should deal with it is significant. All parties now agree on that, even if we disagree on the method and mechanism by which it will be introduced. However, there are parts of the Bill, including dual candidacy, on which we fundamentally disagree with the Government. There are substantial disagreements, but there are also agreements.

The Bill will now go to the other place, and I think that there is an opportunity for their lordships to improve it. I will refer to just two issues. One relates to reserved powers, which I spoke about earlier. I think that the Scottish referendum—I hope that there will be a no vote—will be followed by extra powers for the Scottish Parliament and that that will be replicated in our Assembly in Cardiff. I hope that the Government will rethink that.

More immediately significant is the issue of borrowing. I think that we are being short-changed in Wales as a result of this Bill. I agree wholeheartedly with the Government that the Welsh Government should be able to borrow, as the Northern Ireland Executive and the Scottish Government can, but I have still heard no reasonable answer to the question that all of us on the Opposition Benches have posed. The borrowing principle was introduced in Edinburgh and Belfast without necessarily any reference to streams of income, even though Scotland theoretically has a stream of income and the Northern Ireland Assembly has dealt with rates for many years. There is a gaping hole there. I think that their lordships would be well advised to examine that issue in the Bill.

Housing Benefit (Wales)

Debate between Lord Murphy of Torfaen and Glyn Davies

Thursday 1st May 2014 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies]

I think that it is. It might not be the same in all local authorities—I can speak only for my own—but I must say that, on this issue, Powys county council has been brilliant. It knew that things would be difficult for some tenants—it is not an easy situation—but it employed three specialist officers to help everyone affected to deal with their situation by giving them the best advice, and they have done that. I pay continuous tribute to the work that Powys county council has done with a policy that it may well not have agreed with. It has delivered coalition Government policy and done a magnificent job.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that there is a world of difference between local authorities in Wales, particularly between a large rural area such as the one he represents and a constituency such as mine that has a vast amount of former social housing? For example, there were 3,500 applications for discretionary payments in Torfaen in 2013-14, compared with only 700 the previous year.

[Glyn Davies]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point in that there are great differences between constituencies. He may well speak later in the debate and describe what has happened in his constituency, but when the policy was debated early on, a number of people said that it was going to hit rural areas harder—that was going to be the real problem. No area is more rural than my constituency, and the reality is that the commitment of the local authority and Mid-Wales Housing Association has made the policy work. I am not pretending that it has been easy, but they have made it work as well as possible.

The final issue I want to discuss is new housing, which is clearly needed for the policy to work well in the longer term. Housing deliverers did not respond to what they could have anticipated, perfectly reasonably, to be Government policy. To say that the policy was suddenly dropped on them, out of the blue, and that they need two years to deliver is, I think, a bit of an excuse. They could have anticipated that the policy would be introduced, but we are where we are.

We need the Welsh Government, as well as housing and planning authorities in Wales, to recognise that we need new properties. They should not be piling on extra costs. The Welsh Government have not delivered on new housing. We only need look at the figures to see that they have gone down. They have put on new costs. The planning authorities demand planning gain for this, that and the other, and make it almost impossible to build housing. The Welsh Government have put on the extra cost of sprinklers, which in themselves are fine—

Welsh Affairs

Debate between Lord Murphy of Torfaen and Glyn Davies

Thursday 6th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

For me, as the MP for Montgomeryshire, there is no more enjoyable political experience than speaking in this Chamber in a Welsh affairs debate linked to St David’s day. In fact, I have moved from my usual place on the back row because I wanted to make my speech as close as I am ever likely to be to the seat from which Lord Roberts spoke—his attitude to Welsh affairs was very similar to mine—and indeed from which spoke the most extraordinary Welsh politician of the last century, David Lloyd George. He led a Conservative-Liberal coalition a very long time ago. I enjoy visiting his museum. I promise not to indulge in the kinds of rhetorical flourishes he used when speaking in the House.

[Paul Murphy]

The hon. Gentleman interests the House with his reference to Lloyd George and the coalition between the Conservatives and the Liberals. He will, of course, remember what happened to the Liberal party after that coalition fell.

[Glyn Davies]

I am hoping to make a speech without any sour notes, if possible.

My main political interest over recent decades has been the interests of Wales. I am unashamedly a Welsh politician. For many years I was involved in developing the Welsh economy—a new economy for Wales after the devastation of the beginning of the last century—by working with the Welsh Development Agency, the Welsh Tourist Board and the Development Board for Rural Wales. Through the late ’80s and early ’90s, those organisations did a magnificent job in developing the Welsh economy. I think that they were wound up too soon. Clearly, all quangos are wound up in the end, but I think they were wound up before the job was done, a decision that was taken, I believe, on the basis of prejudice, rather than evidence.

I am intensely proud of being a Welshman. It influences my politics in virtually everything I do in this Chamber. I simply do not accept that to be independently minded, to be culturally and linguistically proud, to be emotionally linked to our Welsh history and to be aware of our distinctive nationhood should ever be the preserve of Welsh nationalists, of Plaid Cymru. It is, and must always be, a part of Conservative philosophy.

There are a million issues I could speak about, but I will touch on just a few. The first is an economic view from rural mid-Wales, where I live. We know that Wales is not a coherent geographical unit. Economically, north Wales is always linked to the north-west of England, mid-Wales is linked to the midlands and south Wales is linked to the M4 corridor. I think that we should challenge the judgment of investing in links between north and south Wales, and not just on the basis of economic benefit, but on the cost-benefit analysis. During my years in the National Assembly, I always thought that there was an element of wanting to develop Wales as a geographical region, rather than just looking at the cost, as with the A470 and the A483. I think that is a real objective, because developing Wales as a coherent unit is important in itself.

Mid-Wales warrants much better treatment that it receives from the Welsh Government, and this is a long-term issue. Wales has an area in the middle between north Wales and south Wales, and it has always been a battle to develop the same awareness of mid-Wales as of the other two areas. We must focus on mid-Wales so that it brings the other two areas closer together. I have always thought there was a case for more investment in mid-Wales to create a unified Wales rather than just for the benefit of individual projects.

Mid-Wales is not just an area to put wind farms—they do not bring much economic benefit to the local economy—and which can then be forgotten in terms of industrial development. Given some political views—certainly not mine—in Wales, that is a danger, and we should challenge it.