Irish Border: Checks and Customs Arrangements

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Tuesday 1st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, if there is an ounce of truth in the reports today that the Government’s technical non-paper, or indeed a real paper, dealing with the Irish border is suggesting physical infrastructure or indeed anything that currently does not exist at the border, does the Minister accept that that could compromise the Good Friday agreement, that it flies in the face of the joint declaration of 2017 and that it would break the law as outlined in Section 10(2)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018? Can he categorically tell the House that no such proposals have been considered?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, the noble Lord speaks with wisdom on this matter and brings great experience to the question. I can be categorical: there will be no infrastructure at the border. That is the policy of this Government; it continues to be that, and it will be that going forward. As for the technical non-papers, those are matters for discussion with the EU and it would be inappropriate just now to talk further on them, but this House will have ample opportunity in due course to examine them in the thorough and careful detail that I know it will take to do so.

Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointment Functions) (No. 2) Regulations 2019

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a short debate and an important one. The Opposition will support the Government on the regulations, for obvious reasons, because appointments in Northern Ireland could not be made unless we did. But the Minister must be aware from the tone of the contributions made in the past hour that this debate is really about the restoration of the institutions in Northern Ireland.

In a sense this regulation is a precursor to direct rule, and we are drifting drearily and inexorably towards that. That would be calamitous. I was a direct rule Minister in Northern Ireland for five years. I enjoyed being there, and I enjoyed doing the job—but it was quite improper that I was doing it. If we have direct rule it will mean an English, Welsh or Scottish Minister, or a combination of such Ministers, taking decisions in Belfast for people who live in Northern Ireland. That is wrong, in every democratic sense.

The Minister’s new boss is apparently on resignation watch, according to the newspapers this morning, on the basis that he is—quite rightly—troubled by the fact that if there is a no-deal Brexit there will be, as my noble friend Lord Hain has said, no proper Government in Northern Ireland to deal with the enormous problems that would result from the catastrophe of no deal. We cannot leave the government of Northern Ireland to civil servants in those circumstances.

When the Minister and his Secretary of State go back to Belfast, can he not make it plain to the political parties in Northern Ireland that we are now in a situation totally different from the situation two months ago, and that urgency and intensity are necessary to bring about the restoration of the institutions, because of Brexit? Brexit dominates everything, and during the past three years the Brexit negotiations in Brussels and London have been skewered because there have not been parallel negotiations regarding Northern Ireland. It is my view that, had there really been a resolution of the problems in Northern Ireland, we could have dealt with the backstop in a very different way. If that had happened—if there had been an agreement in the Assembly and the Executive on what to do about Brexit—that would have helped towards the resolution of the whole Brexit crisis. But it was not to be.

There are, of course, those on the nationalist republican side in Northern Ireland who think that continuing chaos on Brexit and no deal would make a drift towards a united Ireland more likely. There are also those on the other side of the political community there who feel that, somehow or other, they become more British if we leave the European Union. I am not saying that those ideas are right or wrong; I am simply saying that they make the resolution of the problems there much more difficult.

As my noble friends Lord Hain and Lord Empey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, have said, the talks have no shape: there is no structure. Every successful talks process in Northern Ireland has had a proper structure. But now there is none. Over the past six months we have begged the Government to find an independent arbiter or chair. We have begged them to ensure that all political parties sit round the same table to talk about the future of Northern Ireland. And of course, we have begged the Prime Ministers both of Ireland and of the United Kingdom to involve themselves much more intensely in the negotiations, as has happened historically over the last 30 years.

We are in a pretty awful mess—not just the mess of Brexit but the mess of what is how happening in Northern Ireland. I hope that the Minister, for whom I have the highest regard, and the new Secretary of State will be able to go back within days to Belfast and ensure, in their ministerial meetings, that there is a proper structure to the talks, to avoid the calamity that is on its way.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, I have stood here many times and my words are often repeated back to me—and with each passing few months the words become less and less tenable. I said earlier that we need to be very clear that good governance must be at the heart of our ambition for Northern Ireland. I do not think it would be unfair to say that all the parties need to recognise that we are at the very stage when the opportunities for delay are falling away.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked when the parties had last met as a gathering of five. The answer is: in the first week of August. I take no pride in saying that. I do not think that that is much better than the date that the noble Lord suggested. Since then, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has been conducting bilateral discussions in an attempt to restore that Executive. One would think, I suppose, that if we cannot restore it now, when such vital issues are at stake, if, against that backdrop, those parties cannot recognise that now more than ever their voices would have been valuable—might, indeed have been instrumental—we do begin to wonder whether those parties will ever find a way through to restore an Executive. And if those parties cannot restore that Executive, which is so needed, for the very issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, other means must be found.

Let me take up some of the points raised by noble Lords today. We are talking about appointments that are necessary, and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, asked how they are pulled together. There is indeed a mix of appointments—both reappointments and new appointments. I can now tell your Lordships how they break down. A competition is due to be carried out for the chair of the Northern Ireland Transport Holding Company. Open competitions have been carried out to identify suitable candidates for appointment to the Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment, to the General Consumer Council for Northern Ireland, to the Agricultural Wages Board for Northern Ireland, the Board of National Museums and the Historic Buildings Council. Competitions are due to be carried out to identify candidates for appointment to the Northern Ireland Drainage Council and the Arts Council of Northern Ireland.

Every effort is made to ensure that the people concerned are qualified individuals. I am aware that there may be some controversies about some of the earlier appointments; we may come on to that in our later discussions. I am aware that some remarks were made about the Drainage Council. In truth that is a vital body, because it looks after waterways, sea wall defences and so on. I cannot think of anything more important, as we consider climate change.

The noble Lord, Lord Hain, asked again about the role of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference. I believe that if we do indeed find ourselves in the darker waters of direct rule, that will be a vital component. As for the involvement of the Irish Government with these appointments at present, the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord McCrea, are correct: these are domestic matters and would not involve that external consultation. However, I recognise the point they are making, which is about finding the greatest consensus in the communities of Northern Ireland; I believe that is exactly where they are coming from.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, has put forward a Bill to examine the NHS in Northern Ireland. He is right to raise that subject. Professor Deirdre Heenan has written a devasting report which is, for any noble Lord who takes the time to read it, very troubling, for obvious reasons. This is an area of fully devolved competence that is in a bad state of play. We have made every effort that we can within the constraints that we face, but at the same time we are limited in what we can do on this issue. I commend the noble Lord as he brings forward that Bill, and I hope that we are in a position to address it as a matter of some urgency.

Brexit: UK-Irish Relations

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, it has been a long evening, but an interesting one. Much accumulated wisdom has shone through the various individual contributions to this important debate on the excellent report which the Select Committee produced. Like other noble Lords, I send my best wishes to the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, for a speedy and quick recovery.

The noble Lord, Lord Jay, in opening the debate with a very good speech, my noble friends Lord Dubs and Lady Armstrong, and others all said that it was a great mistake that the business of Northern Ireland and of Ireland did not feature in the referendum campaign and debates. Would it have made a difference? I doubt it, certainly not in my area, where, unfortunately from my point of view, the constituents I used to represent voted to leave the EU. Nevertheless, it would have been wholesome had there been a proper debate which would have covered the issues which we are covering tonight.

I also have to agree with a number of noble Lords—including the noble Lords, Lord Carlile and Lexden, and again my noble friend Lady Armstrong—about the response which the committee had from the Government a few hours ago. It has taken nine months to produce this paper. To be perfectly honest, they would have been better off not producing it. If this took nine months, God only knows what is going to happen with the negotiation with the European Union generally, because frankly it is an empty and vacuous paper. I suppose in my ministerial lifetime I probably produced a few of these, but it is not really very good. Its intentions are okay, the observations are okay, but like the position papers, there are no solutions in there—nothing about possible options and solutions to the issues that we have been describing today. I am not suggesting for one second that there are easy solutions to any of the problems that we have discussed for the last five hours, but nevertheless to produce this so late really does the Government no good at all.

However, we are told, and the Minister will tell us later, that there has been some progress with regard to citizens’ rights and the common travel area, and that is to be welcomed. The paper of course recognises the importance of Ireland to everyone concerned—the EU, the Republic and the UK. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, certainly acknowledged that the implications of Brexit for the Republic of Ireland are in themselves unique. No other country is going to be affected by Brexit more than the Republic. Trade between our two countries—over €1 billion a week between the two economies, with about half a million jobs involved—will inevitably be affected dramatically. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, made a very important point about goods from Ireland travelling through the UK, which again is something that I have not seen mentioned in many of these debates and discussions. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, remarked that the effect upon the economy of the Republic could perhaps be the most significant result of Brexit.

Inevitably, the Good Friday agreement has been touched upon on a number of occasions over the last few hours. I believe that the agreement was tied up with our membership of Europe. George Mitchell, who, as your Lordships know, chaired the all-party talks, said only a few months ago that our joint EU membership with the Republic of Ireland was an important factor in the success of the agreement. The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney was a significant figure in those talks. He is a committed European, and has been all his life. I recall that in May 1997 a contact in the Belfast Telegraph congratulated me on being made the first European Minister for Northern Ireland.

It is so important to understand that it is not necessarily the wording in the Good Friday agreement that is significant. The agreement between the two Governments said that they wished,

“to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the European Union”.

The fact that we were part of the same club, the same institution, meant that all the barriers between the two countries that had been there for 50 or 60 years disappeared, because we were meeting all the time as members of the EU. In part of this excellent report, the outgoing ambassador from Ireland indicated that there were maybe 25 meetings a day in Brussels in which British and Irish Ministers and officials interchanged all the time. From a human point of view, that has meant over the last 20 or 30 years that it has made a difference to the relations between ourselves and Ireland. That is why, in all three strands of the Good Friday agreement, there is reference to Europe. It is not that technical reference that matters, though; it is the fact that we were all members of the same institution. In fact, just after the new Assembly was established in 1998, as some noble Lords will remember, the entire Assembly went to Brussels to talk to European parliamentarians and Commissioners about the importance of Europe in Northern Ireland.

The border has been mentioned by, for example, my noble friends Lord Hain and Lord Dubs. From listening to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, it seems pretty impossible to solve this one. We could make it easier—there are technological solutions that could doubtless be used, although having read them I personally find them very baffling—but that would not solve the problem. The only real way in which the problem can be solved is, obviously, for us to be in the same customs union. That is the only way in which it could work. I do not think any of us in this Chamber, or indeed in Britain and Ireland, want a return to the border that we all witnessed, particularly during the Troubles, but I just do not see any easy way out of this.

The report also emphasised the unique nature of the relationship between Britain, Ireland and Northern Ireland as it concerns Brexit. That uniqueness needs to be addressed. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, addressed it at the beginning of the debate. The Irish Government are nervous about bilateral agreements between the British and Irish Governments. I can understand that, because of the position they are in within the European Union, but it is unique. There is nowhere else on the whole continent of Europe where the situation of Ireland is replicated. Nowhere has had a peace process such as this. Fifty-six per cent of the population of Northern Ireland voted to remain, more than those who voted to leave in the rest of the United Kingdom. They will be ignored, despite the fact that the principle of consent is written into the Good Friday agreement.

It seems to me that the two Governments, which are, after all, the joint guarantors of the Good Friday agreement, have to work together in a special way. I know that to many unionists, the idea of special status is anathema, and I do not argue for that; I argue for special arrangements to be made. The Good Friday agreement was in any event a special arrangement, different from devolution in Wales and in Scotland. It was a special arrangement, so why can we not have a special arrangement between the British and Irish Governments within the structure of the European Union negotiations, to deal with these difficult issues? Perhaps we cannot, but it is something that we should consider.

Of course, none of this can happen properly unless the Northern Irish parties are engaged—it is a waste of time. Throughout this debate, many Members of the House referred to the fact that we are without an Executive. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, referred to the fact that there is now no nationalist voice in the House of Commons. When I was a Member of that place for 30 years, there always was; there is no more. Some of the solutions to the issues of Brexit lie in the institutions which have developed in the past 20 years. The British-Irish Council has not met recently. There is the joint ministerial committee, which involves all the different Ministers from the different devolved Administrations. There is not a single Northern Ireland voice on any of those bodies. The British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference needs to be revitalised, and there is of course the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, an excellent institution which I once chaired, but ultimately, if these bodies do not have on them proper representatives of the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly, we cannot properly hear the voice of the people of Northern Ireland. That is a distinct tragedy.

It is now up to the Government not simply to negotiate with the European Union about what happens in Ireland and Northern Ireland but to negotiate with the political parties in Northern Ireland to get a solution to the problems there which mean that we have no Executive. I understand that the Secretary of State has begun further talks in Belfast. Unless those talks are successful, it seems to me that the situation with regard to Brexit in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland will worsen. Although those other issues which the political parties are dealing with in Northern Ireland—those of the past and of the Irish language—are very important, it seems to me that the issue of Brexit should dominate discussion politically in Northern Ireland at the moment. It is up to the Government, the Secretary of State, the Minister and the Prime Minister to go across the Irish Sea—as previous Prime Ministers have done—to ensure that these negotiations are successful, because the key to the success of Brexit in Ireland and Northern Ireland and to the future prosperity and stability of Northern Ireland lies in those negotiations in Belfast.

Northern Ireland Political Situation

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for raising those issues. He will of course be aware that on a day-to-day basis, health spending and education spending are being carried forward in Northern Ireland because it is important that we have appropriate government there. What is not happening, as he did not allude to directly but I am sure he intended to, is that strategic decisions are not being made at the moment. That again refers to the democratic deficit, which we must seek to fill. At the moment the head of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland has indicated that the Civil Service is in a position to keep matters running, but the noble Lord is right to say that this could not go on indefinitely and that there is a democratic deficit. There is indeed.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister knows that a drift to direct rule is very easy and will be disastrous, but that to get out of direct rule is much more difficult. He knows that every successful agreement in Northern Ireland—the Good Friday agreement, the St Andrews agreement and others—has rested on important prime ministerial involvement. None of those agreements would have been possible unless the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach together talked to the parties and leaders in Northern Ireland. I take the point about the Taoiseach, but, where appropriate, the Taoiseach can be involved. Phone calls are not good enough. The Prime Minister needs to go to Belfast to talk to the parties concerned, because the British and Irish Governments are co-guarantors of the Good Friday agreement.

Finally, the Minister has enormous experience of Welsh politics and government, and he knows that you can have a language Act without the union being jeopardised. I hope that he can bring that experience to bear in the talks that lie ahead.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Tuesday 27th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, I very much agree with the comments about Scotland that have just been made but I would like to turn the House’s attention again to Northern Ireland, and to Wales.

I very much agree with my noble friend Lord Reid and the noble Lords, Lord Hay and Lord Browne, with regard to the money needed in Northern Ireland. I do not begrudge the people of Northern Ireland the money that has come their way through this deal. I spent five years of my life, either as Finance Minister for Northern Ireland or as Secretary of State, trying to persuade successive Treasury Ministers and Chancellors of the Exchequer of the importance of extra spending in Northern Ireland. After all, the Troubles visited decades of misery and destruction on Northern Ireland. People lost their jobs, the economy was very slow, the infrastructure was destroyed in some parts and many people fled to come to work here in Great Britain, so the need for the money is unquestionable. Similarly, Brexit means that streams of funding for Northern Ireland, such as the peace money, are going to disappear completely, and if the border situation is not resolved, the economies of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland could be adversely affected. Of that I have no doubt, so the money is needed, but there are implications. As my noble friend Lord Reid said, the implications for the negotiations that are going on across the Irish Sea for the next three days are hugely significant. We could be three days away from direct rule in Northern Ireland, and that would be calamitous.

The Government have to take into account the point my noble friend made about perception with regard to the chairmanship of the talks. There is no doubt that the British Government, like the Irish Government, are seen as co-guarantors of the Good Friday agreement and as impartial, neutral, honest brokers. If the very survival of the present Government in Westminster rests upon a deal with one of the parties in Northern Ireland then unquestionably there is a problem. That is exacerbated by the fact that there is no longer a single nationalist representative in either House of Parliament. All three SDLP Members lost their seats at the general election, tragically in my view, so only one point of view is heard here and in another place. I also agree that there is a case, if these talks are successful, and indeed if they are not, for an independent chair, like George Mitchell, coming to oversee any discussions in future.

The other implication is with regard to the funding arrangements for Scotland and Wales. They are based upon the Barnett formula. It is not an easy formula, and some people do not like it very much, but at least it is a formula that is used across all three countries and nations of the United Kingdom. Increasingly, Governments are now using other ways of giving money to those three countries, bypassing the Barnett system. That is not necessarily a good thing because it means that people can feel unfairly treated. There is now a case for the devolved Administrations and the Government to get together as soon as possible to try to ensure that the funding arrangements are regularised for the whole of the United Kingdom.

Of course, there is the issue of Wales. Had the same formula been used as in the deal with the DUP, Wales would have received something like £2 billion. It has not had it. Naturally it feels aggrieved. There is no question that so far as the people of Wales are concerned Brexit will be financially difficult, indeed disastrous. Seventy per cent of Welsh exports go to Europe, and there are streams of funding for agriculture, industry and economic development in Wales that will disappear overnight. Therefore Wales too needs money, and the sooner the Government get their act together on funding for the devolved Administrations, the better.

Finally, what of the Conservative Party’s promises in its manifesto with regard to Wales? It promised a growth deal for north Wales, new rail infrastructure for south Wales, the abolition of the Severn Bridge tolls and other things too. What happens now? Is the money going to be available for those promises to be made into reality or is the money gone because it has gone to Northern Ireland? Who knows? I look forward to the Minister replying later this evening.

Northern Ireland (All-party Talks)

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Monday 15th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I shall be as brief as possible. There remain significant differences of view on a number of matters. There is no sign as yet that Sinn Fein will move its position on welfare reform. Further progress is needed on a specific plan for efficiencies within the Northern Ireland Executive. On the past, issues around thematic work and inquests will be quite difficult to resolve. On parading, the discussions that took place in the summer under the party leaders’ talks indicate that the criteria for adjudicating parades and the sanctions to be attached to a code of conduct remain the main sticking points.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

How on earth can the Prime Minister come to the conclusion, after 24 hours, that there is no realistic way of reaching a consensus? Over the years, both with the Good Friday agreement and the St Andrew’s agreement, the Prime Minister actively tries to ensure that there is a consensus. The Secretary of State should go to Downing street and persuade the Prime Minister to do that again—and quickly.

[Mrs Villiers]

I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the UK Government will continue to work as hard as possible to secure an agreement out of this process.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Wednesday 12th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

I congratulate the Government on listening to their lordships and accepting these amendments.

Fifteen years on, I am a bit like the Good Friday agreement myself—that much older and that much greyer.

[Mr Robathan]

And wiser.

[Paul Murphy]

Not so much wiser, I think.

I vividly recall that we decided on the final number for the Assembly in the middle of the night on Maundy Thursday. There was an argument that the Assembly should be bigger than it turned out to be—some of the smaller parties thought it was essential that they should all be represented—but we came to what appeared to be something of a compromise with 108 Members. I absolutely agree with the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). When the Government were dealing with the United Kingdom parliamentary boundary changes, they were challenged—I challenged them, as did the right hon. Gentleman and others—about the consequences of reducing the number of MPs in Northern Ireland for the Assembly, and therefore for the whole balance that had been agreed. That is now water under the bridge, so it is not an issue today, but it shows the mentality at the time.

In Wales, we have a population of 3 million compared with a population of 1.5 million in Northern Ireland, and an Assembly of 60 Members compared with an Assembly of 108 Members in Northern Ireland. That is obviously quite a difference. The Government recently appointed the Silk commission, which has recommended that the number of Members of the National Assembly for Wales should be increased because it has now achieved primary legislative powers and therefore has an insufficient number of Back Benchers to scrutinise legislation.

I very much take the point that there is no great merit in having a set figure if there is agreement to reduce it. My only mild criticism of the amendment is that it specifies a figure of five, and if, with agreement, the parties said that it should be four, the Bill would prevent them from implementing that. Nevertheless, a reduction from six to five is a start. Two important principles lay behind the number that was chosen: first, the need to make the Assembly in Northern Ireland as pluralist as possible so that as many points of view as possible are represented, which was a good approach; and, secondly and crucially, the need to ensure that changes are agreed with the political parties in Northern Ireland. I would be interested to hear what the Minister says about any consultations he or his predecessors had with Northern Ireland’s political parties to come up with the final figure and final recommendation that we are considering.

A few weeks ago, Northern Ireland was, in a sense, captured by a crisis about a so-called one-sided deal that may have occurred some years ago. I do not want to go into the details of that, but merely say that anything that is one-sided will eventually flounder. Everybody has to agree; otherwise, eventually, the deal will not last. This can be very difficult. For example, our agreeing on the release of prisoners in Northern Ireland—perhaps the most difficult part of the Good Friday agreement—was based on the agreement of the parties involved in the talks. Therefore, the key aspect of the amendment, which I wholly support, is the importance of getting general agreement.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that a deal brokered and supported by one party for republican terrorists who are on the run from justice in Northern Ireland cannot be described as a “so-called” one-sided deal? It is a one-sided deal, and its secrecy makes it a dirty deal as well.

[Paul Murphy]

Mr Deputy Speaker will stop me if we go into the details of what we discussed some weeks ago, but I will simply say that the principle of all parties agreeing a policy is critical to its success. The issue, as the hon. Gentleman has just said, is one that involved not just political parties, but paramilitary organisations as well. The principle, however, has to be agreed: there must be agreement between the parties all the time, even if it takes weeks, months or even years to achieve it. Otherwise, it will be so fragile that it simply will not continue to have any validity at all.

I agree with the Lords amendments. I will also be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about the consultation that was held on the details of the size of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

I also rise to support the Lords amendments. It is worth noting that my party agrees with the Democratic Unionist party on this occasion, because that has been a rather rare occurrence in recent years. We wish to see significant reform of the Assembly structures and the burden they place on the population of Northern Ireland.

The principles of the Good Friday agreement—power-sharing, inclusion and proportionality—are very important. Whatever changes are made to the Assembly, they need still to reflect those principles. There are many ways in which those principles can be implemented in practice to allow Northern Ireland to have a leaner, more efficient Government. I believe that that would benefit all the people of Northern Ireland and that it is something the Assembly should wish to take forward. We should be open to reform that would make our Government more agile and that would allow our governance to move away from the structures that often impede its ability to deliver for the electorate. Obviously, we would like the Assembly reforms to go much further, but that is a matter for the Assembly and Executive Review Committee. However, I concur entirely with the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) that the time for talking about this has come to an end. We now need to see real progress and take the opportunity these amendments present to reduce the number of Members per constituency and then, as part of that process, reduce the number of Government Departments so that there is a correct balance between those in the Executive and those in Back-Bench positions holding them to account.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Murphy]

The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) referred to what the reduction would be if two seats were lost. There would be a reduction of 10 Members of the Assembly. There would be a further reduction of 18 Members if the number of Members per constituency were reduced to five. That is a reduction of 28 Members. The Minister does not seem to grasp the fact that the situation in Northern Ireland is totally different from the situation in the rest of the United Kingdom. The very fine balance of cross-community support could be affected by doing that.

[Mr Robathan]

On the contrary, I do grasp that fact. I do understand that the situation is different. The right hon. Gentleman worked very hard on the Belfast agreement and afterwards as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. He will know that the settlement is not perfect and that many people would disagree with the current boundaries. We believe that the Assembly should be enabled to determine the reduction in its size. That is what clause 6 does, with the safeguard of Lords amendment 2. It is only an enabling clause, because we have devolved the matter to the Assembly and are allowing it to sort it out. I am sure that it will do so.

Lords amendment 1 agreed to.

Lords amendments 2 and 3 agreed to.

Clause 10

Civil Service Commissioners for Northern Ireland

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Robathan]

Currently, I understand, the civil service commissioners for Northern Ireland answer to the UK Government, but by devolving this issue, they will answer to the Northern Ireland Executive. I believe that to be the case, but just in case I am wrong—[Interruption.] Yes, the proceedings and functions are currently reserved, whereas the appointment is excepted. We intend to change that, so that appointment will also be reserved. I think that is a sensible way forward, and I thought it was supported.

[Paul Murphy]

I am not sure about this, but the Minister may know the answer. What is the position of civil service commissioners in Wales and Scotland, and particularly in Scotland?

[Mr Robathan]

Since the right hon. Gentleman was once Secretary of State for Wales, he might be better able to answer that than I am. I will write to him and let him know because I do not know the situation in Scotland and Wales.

Clause 11 proposes moving responsibility for appointments to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and its functions, from the excepted to the reserved category, making it possible for those responsibilities to be devolved in future. As with civil service commissioners, that raises questions about the commission’s independence, including its accountability should it be devolved in future.

Lords amendments to clause 11 set out a similar procedure to those to clause 10, and also require the Secretary of State to lay a report before Parliament at least three months prior to introducing any order on the devolution of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. In that report, the Secretary of State is required to set out her view about the effects that such an order would have on the commission’s independence, the application of internationally accepted principles relating to human rights institutions, and the relationship between the commission and the Assembly. We recognise that these issues are of real concern to those concerned with the effective operation of the commission.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Wednesday 26th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

My primary thoughts are with the families of those who died on that terrible day in July 1982. This whole episode must have provoked very painful memories. I am sure that it is a source of sadness and regret for them, as it is for us, that no one has been brought to justice for the Hyde park bombing. Despite the long shadow that this case is likely to cast, I hope that the Northern Ireland parties will continue to work together to see whether a solution can be found to deal with the legacy of the past in Northern Ireland.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

Can the Secretary of State convince the House that there is still momentum left in the talks started by Ambassador Haass?

[Mrs Villiers]

As I have said, these are hugely important matters. It would be of great benefit to Northern Ireland if an agreed way forward could be found. Some very important work has been going on in recent weeks between the party leaders, with real dedication to try to find a way forward. There is no doubt that finding a way forward will now be more difficult, given the events of the past 24 hours, but I continue to encourage the parties to do so.

Haass Talks

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Wednesday 8th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I agree with my hon. Friend the Chairman of the Committee. Four months was a very tight timetable in which to reach agreement on issues that some would argue have been a problem in Northern Ireland for very many years—some would argue that some of the issues date back hundreds of years in terms of identity. It was always going to be a tough ask to meet that timetable. I agree that the solution now is to resume those discussions between the parties. Although it is clear that some of the parties have expressed concern about the final draft of the Haass proposals, none of them is walking away. They are all saying that the process should continue and they all seem to be prepared to engage in that dialogue. I urge them to do so.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

May I associate myself with the remarks of the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State about Paul Goggins? As a former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, I can testify to the fact that Paul’s work was instrumental in bringing forward both the political and the peace process in Northern Ireland. Like many others in this House, I have lost a good friend.

Even though the Haass talks have temporarily ended, what is the Secretary of State’s plan to engage her civil servants and Irish civil servants in work on the specific issues that are still a matter of controversy, so that those officials will be able to give advice, wisdom and evidence to the working parties that will soon be set up?

[Mrs Villiers]

My officials have worked with Irish Government officials throughout the process, just as I have kept up regular contacts at political levels. We also stand ready to provide advice, help and support to the Executive in taking these matters forward. The role of officials will obviously be crucial in coming up with a solution that is workable and practical and that can be implemented.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mark Durkan]

Perhaps they did, but the fact is that notice was served to the parties in Northern Ireland that, if such a change did not happen, the Government would move to legislate, as they have now correctly done. It would have been wrong for the Government to give the signal, and then not to use the Bill to address the matter. We discussed this on previous Bills, because it came up whenever we considered the question of constituencies and voting systems, as well as House of Lords reform.

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

Further to the last intervention, my hon. Friend will be aware that the Bill, if passed, will apply to Northern Ireland. Similar legislation will be passed for Wales, but none will be passed for Scotland.

[Mark Durkan]

That would be a discrepancy as well. If the principle is one Member, one Chamber, it should apply all round. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting that those of us who tabled amendments should have included the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament, so that there was no question of somebody deciding to be in several Chambers.

--- Later in debate ---

The other amendment is consequential. If the number of Assembly Members is reduced, we have to take account of the numbers required for a petition of concern. Again, that matter would be decided by the Assembly. We are not saying that this should be decided here and now, in this Bill, but simply that we should move these issues into the category of reserved matters so that they could be decided by the Assembly under the cross-community procedure. If we are going to allow the Assembly to decide on its size, we should allow it that further responsibility in relation to wider aspects of the political process in Northern Ireland.

[Paul Murphy]

I am grateful for the opportunity to say a few words in Committee about this very important, if small, Bill. I feel a little in fear of being in splendid isolation on these Benches, although I am also surrounded by a phalanx of Northern Ireland politicians—something that I am not entirely unused to.

This has been an interesting debate. Perhaps, in referring to clause stand part, I could reminisce a little about why the Assembly has a membership that many believe is rather large, at 108. We could compare that with, for example, the Welsh Assembly. Wales has a population roughly double that of Northern Ireland but its Assembly has roughly half the number of Members of the Assembly in Belfast. There is a reason for that. It came about, as it so happened, on Maundy Thursday 1998 at 3 o’clock in the morning or thereabouts, when we struck an agreement with the parties—although of course at that stage the DUP was not involved; I think they were getting rather cold marching to Stormont in the snow.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) will recall, the initial belief was that there should be a membership of 95, but in fact it went up to 108. The final figure was reached quite quickly by the then Prime Minister, and we as Ministers, on the basis that although the idea of having five Members per constituency, making a total of 95, had some merit, increasing it to six would give smaller parties that had been involved in the talks on the peace process the opportunity to be represented in the Assembly—the Women’s Coalition, the Progressive Unionist Party and others. That was sensible. It related to the fact that we already had ready-made constituencies in Northern Ireland that could be used as the basis of the boundaries for the new Northern Ireland Assembly.

In the previous debate we heard interesting reference to how things have moved on. I believe that if we had not had people in the Northern Ireland peace process and political process who did not have a dual mandate, those processes would not have happened, because those people brought an invaluable wisdom and a richness of experience to the talks. Incidentally, I am not persuaded that we should be legislating about who should or should not be allowed to stand for the House of Commons or for the Assembly, but that is another issue, and we have just dealt with it. The point is that those decisions were made at the time to ensure that the process went on. I think that the 108 figure was right for the time, because it did what it had to do. Now that times have moved on, however, it seems to me that we should ask whether that figure is an encumbrance. Is it too big? Is it too expensive? Does it work? I think that this is a matter for the political parties in Northern Ireland to decide, as opposed to this place. It should be the Northern Ireland Assembly that decides whether it should be smaller.

Incidentally, when the Government tried a year or so ago to change the boundaries of our parliamentary constituencies they completely forgot about the knock-on effect it would have on Northern Ireland. Happily, that measure has disappeared, but it would have had a profound effect on the balance in Northern Ireland. The Government had not thought about that when they considered the parliamentary boundary review, but that is another issue.

It is for the parties in Northern Ireland to decide on the size of their Assembly and that is why I support clause 6, but I issue one caveat. I understand—had I read the Bill more thoroughly I would know whether this is the case—that the Secretary of State will have to endorse such an agreement. I think that is right, because the Good Friday agreement, the St Andrews agreements and the entire peace process were guaranteed by the Irish and British Governments and the Irish and British Parliaments, so that is another important factor. I will only be convinced, however, when the Secretary of State or the Minister, in response to this or any future debate, make it absolutely clear that no such changes should be made unless they achieve the consensus of all the parties in Northern Ireland as to what the figure should be.

I understand that the Assembly has a mechanism—the Assembly Commission, which is representative of all parties—that could initially consider any representations. Whatever happens, the decision should be reached by consensus, discussion, negotiation and agreement, and only then should the Secretary of State give her approval. Nevertheless, the principle is a wise one and I support it and hope it will be carried if it is put to the vote.

[Mark Durkan]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), who chaired the strand 1 negotiations leading to the Good Friday agreement. The very important and patient role that he played throughout the negotiations is not often acknowledged.

Clause 6 deals with possible changes to the size of the Assembly and the right hon. Gentleman has explained why it ended up at its current size. He has corroborated many of the points that I made on Second Reading about how the figure of 108 was arrived at. The decision was made ultimately by the British Government. Some of us favoured a top-up scheme, but I remember the right hon. Gentleman and the then Prime Minister telling us during the night and early morning that the reason why they saw the option of six Members per constituency as offering the best chance of accommodating smaller parties was that if they went with the option of a top-up of 10 it would be too complicated for them to work out all the different permutations of top-ups. That was significant at that stage of the negotiations. We need to understand why that decision was taken. The right hon. Gentleman has rightly said that it can be revised and reviewed; indeed, the review mechanism of the agreement itself allows for that.

I do not think that there is any disagreement between the parties that the size of the Assembly needs to be addressed. The Assembly and Executive Review Committee has previously kicked it about, but we have still not seen any substantive moves. There are sensitivities involved in decisions about the size of the Assembly. A reduction to five seats per constituency would probably be broadly supported. A reduction to four seats per constituency would be much more sensitive, because it would make a serious difference to the capacity for proportional representation.

There is a question over the degree of gerrymandering that will be possible when the Assembly or the key parties therein have the power to settle the number of seats per constituency. The parties could abuse that power. That is why it is right that there should be a reserved power for the Secretary of State. However, some of us are not reassured that the Secretary of State would use that reserved power in an alert or effective way, because when Sinn Fein and the DUP come along, the attitude of the Northern Ireland Office seems to be, “Whatever you’re having yourselves.” That seems to account for sufficient consensus on such matters.