Crown Estate (Wales) Bill [HL]

Lord Murphy of Torfaen Excerpts

Friday 7th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure, as always, to follow the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. I was trying to work out how long we have been in Parliament together—it is 38 years since we first spoke on Welsh matters in the House of Commons. On and off, we have agreed probably more times than we have disagreed. It is, as I say, a great pleasure to follow him.

We have of course dealt with this issue some months ago, when the Crown Estate Bill came through this House; it is now in the other place. I think, however, that the argument and discussion are still live. There is some dispute as to the amount of money—or disagreement: perhaps “dispute” is wrong. Is it £8 million, as the Library tells us, or is it much more, £30-odd million, as the noble Lord said? Whatever it is, it is significant in terms of the Welsh budget. One question that I would grateful if my noble friend the Minister could answer in his wind-up is whether the equivalent money in Scotland is regarded as properly additional to the block grant and whether it would be in Wales, if this were devolved to Wales. That is a hugely important issue. I remember spending a year back in 1999, with regard to the European Union Objective 1 money, arguing, discussing and eventually agreeing with Gordon Brown about the way in which European money should be genuinely additional. Quite possibly, he did not agree with his officials at the Treasury—not a bad precedent, from time to time, if I might say so.

Another issue that I want to touch on is that this is of some constitutional importance. My own position with regard to devolution has changed dramatically since 1978 when I was treasurer of the Labour No Assembly campaign. When eventually, many years later, I became Welsh Secretary, my views on devolution gradually changed, so that I ended up supporting the referendum on extra powers for the Welsh Assembly some years ago. That is because the nature of devolution, and the institutions of devolution, are now firmly embodied in the Welsh psyche. There is no question that it is very much part of our political landscape. People understand what it does. If this issue is devolved to Scotland, I still cannot understand why it cannot be devolved to Wales. That is the big question in front of us. I know that the Minister will say that it is settled now and that we have to live with what we have to live with, but I think the constitutional precedent that was set with Scotland getting it causes difficulty.

The compromise that we reached in having a Welsh commissioner for the Crown Estate was a good one. Welsh interests will be partly safeguarded by that, and I hope that we will soon have some progress on who will occupy that position. It was nevertheless a compromise. My fear on this and other issues is that we are not really talking enough to the Welsh Government. Again, I will ask my noble friend the Minister to comment on the view that there have been no discussions with my colleagues in the Welsh Government and Senedd on this matter; I think that is highly unlikely, and I hope that they have indeed been talking on this issue. There is a wider view on this. it was argued at the general election that, if we have a Labour Government in Westminster and a Labour Government in Cardiff, it would—as it did many years ago—make relations much easier. That might not always be the case, which is why the previous Government, rightly in my view, set up the machinery for consultation, discussion and dispute resolution between the devolved Administrations and the United Kingdom Government.

The Minister will, I hope, confirm one way or the other whether there have been discussions, but this issue has not gone away. It will be there for some time to come in relation to the way in which the Government in Westminster deal with the Government in Cardiff. I support the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, in the sense that this is an issue that needs eventually to be discussed and resolved, although perhaps not in the way it is at the moment. We are where we are, though. I very much look forward to the response by my noble friend the Minister, for whom I have the highest regard.