Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill

Lord Moynihan Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 3rd February 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Moynihan]

13: Schedule 2, page 36, line 20, leave out sub-paragraph (d)

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

My Lords, the amendments standing in my name refer to sport. The Bill excludes sports grounds that are not designated under the Safety of Sports Grounds Act order and which have no permanent checks that people accessing the ground have paid or have tickets. Designated grounds have a capacity of more than 10,000 for Great Britain and 5,000 for Northern Ireland. I therefore suspect that sports grounds with a proper boundary and paying fans are subject to the Bill, even if they have a capacity of less than 10,000 in GB and 5,000 in Northern Ireland. The Bill uses the Safety of Sports Grounds Act and its order for definitions of both sports grounds and designated sports grounds.

I have worked on an amendment to exclude sports grounds if they are not designated and disapply the provision about paying visitors and permanent checks. This means that sports grounds with a capacity of less than 10,000 in Great Britain and 5,000 in Northern Ireland would be excluded from the Bill. The advantage of this approach is that it relies on fan capacity numbers, which are, first, defined in existing legislation, and, secondly, appear to have been chosen in the past based on whether existing safety precautions should apply.

I fully appreciate that there is a major difference between what this Bill says and what the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 defines—although it is interesting that, on the face of this legislation, the Safety of Sports Grounds Act definition is used to define a sportsground as an outdoor space where people can participate in sport or other competitive activities and where spectators are accommodated. The Act also defines designated sports grounds as those that have a spectator capacity of more than 10,000 people.

These are probing amendments. I will say that I am going back a bit, before even the Minister’s reference to 1992-93, because I am passionately concerned about safety in sports grounds. I had the worst day of my life when asked by the then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher to get to Biggin Hill and go up to Hillsborough, and to witness at first-hand the appalling tragedy that was unfolding on that afternoon. It did not take that to change my mind that there was nothing more important than the safety of the public, but it reinforced my belief that safety was a primary concern to all of us involved in sport, and in society in general. The lesson from Hillsborough and the work that subsequently unfolded was repeated in my next ministerial job when, tragically, again, I had to implement the Cullen report following the tragedy of Piper Alpha and the disaster that unfolded.

I am at one with the Minister and everybody who is behind this Bill to make sure that, when it comes to safety, in this case from terrorism, we go the extra yard if necessary to ensure that the public can be safe. I would draw one lesson from Cullen and from that time, which I think is relevant here. It was touched upon at Second Reading. I owe an apology to the Committee that I was not there for the Second Reading debate; I could not be—I wish I had been—but I read it in Hansard and found that some outstanding speeches were made from both sides of the House on that occasion. One point that came through from those speeches was that, as much as we legislate, it is vital to make sure that the public are aware of the risks. It is about people, as the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said in his opening remarks this evening, as much as premises. Part of what we must try to do through this legislation is create greater awareness of the risks of terrorism. I hope that that can apply equally to sporting events and venues as it does to society as a whole.

I am simply going to ask a series of questions and give some examples. I would be grateful if the Minister could seek to answer them. The first example I want to give emanated from contributions made earlier this evening about the costs of compliance and the resources necessary to comply. One of my greatest friends in politics was Denis Howell. He and I battled for many years, principally in another place, and when we got into this place we were both Tellers on one occasion on the same sporting Bill and saw success. One thing that Denis Howell and I were keen on was an initiative taken by the Labour Party in government to initiate and establish community amateur sports clubs—CASCs. This was back in 2002; these were small groups of volunteers across the country, reaching hard-to-reach communities, supporting grass-roots sport and allowing them, through law, to register as sports clubs and not businesses. That gave them significant benefits: tax reliefs, gift aid and rates relief. There are still some 6,200 of those clubs. They often have numbers that would exceed the threshold to warrant registering, as a result of the legislation before us, but they are at very low risk.

The key point that was made earlier this evening is that this debate is about risk and how proportionate that risk is. In this case, the cost puts at risk those clubs and the people who volunteer. Even on the Government’s own figures, we have a substantial annual cost for those in the first category, and in the enhanced category the costs go up to something of the order of £52,000 over 10 years. That would simply not be tenable for many community amateur sports clubs.

I ask the Minister to take away this challenge to encouraging volunteers in different groups—many groups that find it exceptionally difficult to access the sport and recreation that keeps them fit, which is a saving to society. It is very important, in my view, that in this context we look at those clubs and at the impact on volunteering.

If I can go up one notch to schools, having read the Bill I think I am right to take as an example Monmouth School. Monmouth School would be exempt from this provision if it had a rugby match and 600 or 800 people came—which often happens because rugby is almost religion in Wales and no less so at Monmouth School. If Monmouth are playing Brecon or Llandovery, it is quite possible there would be that many people there. If the school had an exemption and the public could come, they could walk into the ground and watch the game. They could then walk across the River Wye and go to see Monmouth Rugby Club play, and yet that club would be designated. So even with fewer people there, to me there is a concern about the risk of terrorism. There is just as great a risk that an event could take place at a school rugby match of that type, with the same number of people as are over the river at a town game, and yet the town club is not exempt. It is caught by this legislation while the school game would be exempt, despite the fact that the public from the town could, and do, go and watch to support their school as much as they do their town club.

Moving further up, I would like clarification on a question that the Minister can easily answer. From a terrorist point of view, focusing on big and highly publicised events such as a marathon or a triathlon makes them more likely, in my view, to be a target than, say, Monmouth Rugby Club. Yet, if I am correct, a triathlon run in London would not be covered by this Bill—or if it is, I would be grateful if the Minister could explain how, so that we can relay back to the triathlon clubs across the country whether they are caught by this legislation. There are, of course, no premises associated with triathlons and those events are organised across the country. Therefore, we need clarity around how the Bill applies to triathlon clubs and to the national triathlon federation. How does it apply to the organisers of the London Marathon, which is a high-profile event?

Other similar challenging questions arise with the boat race—I had the good fortune of coxing in the boat race many years ago. The boat race committee has control over Oxford and Cambridge eights, and it negotiates the television rights, but it has no premises. It is out there in the middle of the river. The riverbank is full: sometimes up to 250,000 people go down to watch the boat race. I know that the Minister will say that it is a major event and the police will be highly proactive at that event, and indeed they are. I am grateful to the police for the enormous amount of work they do at major sporting events across the country every day they occur.

However, the tow-path is not covered, and yet I assume that each of the clubs along the embankment would be covered if more than 200 people came into those clubs that day. The Minister referred earlier this evening to “every so often”; well, that would be once a year—and maybe for another regatta as well—but those premises are there not because of the boat race but to cater for their members. On any other given day, there may be fewer than 200 of the rowing fraternity in their club. But I assume each one of them—the physical premises—would need to be registered and come under this legislation all the way down the tow-path.

There are two things that emerge from that. One is that there is an equally great risk with the public at large on the tow-path as there is inside one of the premises. Secondly, there is a co-ordination point that is important to think through for major sporting events, and that is the co-ordination between the police and a whole host of different people who will be responsible for compliance at each and every one of those buildings. I may have misunderstood it, and perhaps there is not a requirement for each of the clubs—the Thames Rowing Club and the London Rowing Club—to be compliant under this legislation for that event. After all, they are not there because of the boat race. No doubt the Minister will be able to help me by clarifying that position.

Another possibly rather good example is Henley. Quite clearly, the stewards’ enclosure for Henley would need to be compliant with this legislation, but the terrorist risk is greater down the tow-path all the way to the start, because access into the stewards’ enclosure is already vigorously controlled for safety reasons by the stewards. If a terrorist were going to choose the Henley Royal Regatta to create an incident, it is much more likely that it would be further down the tow-path, where a lot more people would be assembled watching the rowing than in the stewards’ enclosure itself. Again, it is about proportionate risk and ensuring close co-operation between the police and those that are compliant, as I am sure all sports clubs will be, with this legislation.

I end by saying to the Minister that I anticipate that there is not absolute clarity on each and every example that I have given. If there is not, will he and his officials work with DCMS in providing guidance to everybody involved in sport—the small volunteer clubs all the way through to the major events and those that do not have premises but organise an event—as to exactly how this legislation is going to work? The world of sport will do what it is told and will be very supportive and will always recognise, as everybody does on this Committee, that safety and awareness and anti-terrorism measures are all laudable and important, but it would be very helpful indeed to the world of sport to understand exactly how the Government see this legislation working and, where possible, whether they will provide financial support to those most in need. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful for the efforts of noble Lords in tabling the amendments we are considering and the points they have raised. The intention of the Bill is to provide a framework for security in the event of a terrorist attack: that is its prime focus. I recognise that there will be pressures on volunteers to come to the table on these provisions, but it is part of the scope of the Bill to ensure that happens and there is good practice.

I can assure the Committee that as part of the development of the Bill, both the current Government and the previous Government have carefully considered where it is appropriate to exclude premises and events from its scope. In particular, we have taken into account the potential impact on smaller community and grass-roots premises. For the reasons the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, mentioned, we have to draw that line in relation to the Bill as a whole.

On Amendments 13 and 15 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, the Government are conscious that there are many types of premises used for sports activities with different operating models. That is why we have made revisions to the previous draft version of the Bill to distinguish between sports premises which are open to the public to access freely and those where there is some form of control of entry, whether a ticket check, swipe card access or other.

Schedule 2 to the Bill excludes open-air premises which might otherwise be captured. This includes parks, sports grounds and open-air premises used for recreation or leisure where there are no measures to control access. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, gave me a number of examples, including the boat race, as it involves buildings and tow paths. I will reflect on his examples. My gut feeling is that buildings are covered, but tow paths and other associated provisions are not, except if—as mentioned in the Bill—payment is made, invitations or passes to access are issued, or individuals must be members or guests of a club or association to gain access. I will reflect on his points, however, and prior to Report—which will not be too far hence—I will make sure the noble Lord has a letter in his hand. He can then decide whether to take action on Report or be satisfied; I hope, of course, it will be the latter.

I have the concern that under the noble Lord’s proposals to remove paragraph 3(2)(d) of the schedule, a non-league football match, such as at Flint Town United in the town I live in, with 8,000 people attending, would be out of scope and its security not considered. That is unacceptable, because the amendments could leave only a few hundred premises across the United Kingdom within scope. Again, the purpose of this legislation is to ensure that we put in a basic minimum, which is to provide protection in the event of an attack and steps that can be taken by the associated individual. That is the bottom line, and sometimes it causes reflections that the noble Lord has made.

The costs were touched on by a number of noble Lords. We have estimated that for a standard duty premises the costs will be around £330 per year. That is not cash up front being paid externally; it might just be an assessment of the time involved by volunteers to undertake the training and be the responsible person. Again, there is a judgment to be made, and we have made the judgment that that is a right level of approach. Noble Lords have expressed concerns about that, but I do not think it will reduce the level of volunteers. Nor, having looked at the impact assessment from the Home Office, do I share the concerns that the penalties set out in paragraph 68, for example—which I agree are heavy—will put people off, because we are trying to instil into the system a level of good practice. Downstream, undoubtedly, that will not be administered as a day one fine—there will be discussion between the authority and the regulated premise in due course. I hope that will not put individuals off, but the noble Lord has made his point.

The noble Lord mentioned that officials have drawn up the impact assessment. I pay tribute to the officials for doing that, as they have worked hard, but he will note that the signature on the bottom is of the Security Minister, Dan Jarvis. Political leadership takes responsibility for this document and will continue to do so with the support of officials downstream.

On Amendments 14 and 19 from the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, the noble Lord himself mentioned that he thinks they need to be reflected on. I will take his word for that and give him the encouragement to reflect on them still further. The Bill sets out that open-air premises which might otherwise be caught are excluded, but he can reflect on his amendments and, if he feels that he wishes to bring them back on Report, a recrafted amendment could be tabled, should he wish to do so. That is his decision and his call in due course.

If I may, I will reflect on all the comments made by noble Lords. There were some detailed questions about the pavilion and reflections on that. I hope that noble Lords will understand that we are trying to achieve a baseline, and we want clarity on that, because clarity means that it serves a purpose so volunteers and others will take the right approach, the SIA will know what it is monitoring, and Ministers and this House will be accountable for the performance. I will reflect on all the points that have been made and, if clarity is required, then we will try and ensure that it happens. I will write to Members and, if noble Lords feel that that clarity is not present in my correspondence, then there will be opportunities later in the day to take action accordingly. With that, I hope noble Lords will not press their amendments.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

I thank the Minister for that comprehensive reply. We both share the overall objectives; of that there is no doubt, and I think that applies to everybody in the Committee. I hope that, in addition to the letter, the Minister will give consideration with his colleagues to sector-specific guidance. That would be very helpful in the context of the sport and recreation world.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I should mention that, if this Bill receives Royal Assent, as I hope it will, then there is that potential two-year implementation period, and we will be looking clearly at guidance to make sure that the wishes of the legislation are reflected in how it can be implemented by a range of organisations.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

I appreciate that. By “sector-specific”, I was talking about the sport and recreation world, so I hope that that is also taken into consideration by the Minister. My biggest concern by far is the community amateur sports clubs—the CASCs—the volunteers, and the grass-roots sportsmen and sports-women in this country who give so much of their time voluntarily.

We will go away and consider the response that the Minister has kindly given the Committee. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment standing in my name.

Amendment 13 withdrawn.