Lord Moynihan
Main Page: Lord Moynihan (Conservative - Excepted Hereditary)Consumer Rights Bill
Lord Moynihan Excerpts
Lord Moynihan
As an amendment to Motion A, leave out “Amendments 12B to 12H” and insert “Amendments 12J to 12S”—
“CHAPTER 3B
SECONDARY TICKETING
Duty to provide information about tickets
(1) This section applies where a person (“the seller”) re-sells a ticket for a recreational, sporting or cultural event in the United Kingdom through a secondary ticketing facility.
(2) The seller and each operator of the facility must ensure that the person who buys the ticket (“the buyer”) is given the information specified in subsection (3), where this is applicable to the ticket.
(3) That information is—
(a) where the ticket is for a particular seat or standing area at the venue for the event, the information necessary to enable the buyer to identify that seat or standing area,
(b) information about any restriction which limits use of the ticket to persons of a particular description, and
(c) the face value of the ticket.
(4) The reference in subsection (3)(a) to information necessary to enable the buyer to identify a seat or standing area at a venue includes, so far as applicable—
(a) the name of the area in the venue in which the seat or standing area is located (for example the name of the stand in which it is located),
(b) information necessary to enable the buyer to identify the part of the area in the venue in which the seat or standing area is located (for example the block of seats in which the seat is located),
(c) the number, letter or other distinguishing mark of the row in which the seat is located, and
(d) the number, letter or other distinguishing mark of the seat.
(5) The reference in subsection (3)(c) to the face value of the ticket is to the amount stated on the ticket as its price.
(6) The seller and each operator of the facility must ensure that the buyer is given the information specified in subsection (7), where the seller is—
(a) an operator of the secondary ticketing facility,
(b) a person who is a parent undertaking or a subsidiary undertaking in relation to an operator of the secondary ticketing facility,
(c) a person who is employed or engaged by an operator of the secondary ticketing facility,
(d) a person who is acting on behalf of a person within paragraph (c), or
(e) an organiser of the event or a person acting on behalf of an organiser of the event.
(7) That information is a statement that the seller of the ticket is a person within subsection (6) which specifies the ground on which the seller falls within that subsection.
(8) Information required by this section to be given to the buyer must be given—
(a) in a clear and comprehensible manner, and
(b) before the buyer is bound by the contract for the sale of the ticket.
(9) This section applies in relation to the re-sale of a ticket through a secondary ticketing facility only if the ticket is first offered for re-sale through the facility after the coming into force of this section.”
Lord Moynihan (Con)
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend the Minister for her careful consideration of the points that we made when we tabled the original amendment. We did so because we recognised that, based on the Government’s own figures, the level of online ticket fraud was of the order of £1.5 billion in 2012. That was of course a momentous year but that figure of £1.5 billion does not include the Olympic or Paralympic Games because, as your Lordships will recall, the opportunity was taken both in this House and in another place to criminalise the secondary market for that specific event. It is important to recognise that that figure of £1.5 billion was one where online ticket fraud occurred when victims purchased tickets for an event—such as music, sport, theatre or a performance—which did not materialise.
In the many hours of negotiation and debate, we have sought to address the causes of our concerns: that there is a very significant volume of counterfeit and invalid tickets sold to the public through the secondary sites. As 85% to 90% of resale now takes place through the four platforms, which are owned by three companies, the overwhelming majority of these invalid tickets come through those sites. The biggest problem in this day and age is not the old-fashioned tout. It is the wholesale harvesting of tickets by touts from their computers, with specialised software. They are incentivised by these four platforms, not least through power seller programmes. This harvesting is now out of control and volumes of tickets are acquired on such a scale that it is proving difficult, if not impossible, for genuine music and sports fans to purchase a ticket at face value for high-demand events. In the time when you are typing in your name, address and details, the specialised software is sweeping the volume of tickets available to the general public and within a matter of minutes, sometimes, those tickets are appearing on the secondary websites. The sheer number of tickets for high-demand events going on to the platforms is sufficient to facilitate price manipulation, to the detriment of the public.
Against that background, I would like to address a number of points that my noble friend the Minister has made. I say straight away that it is really important that anyone considering the position we are taking on this Motion recognises that there has been universal support throughout the proceedings in your Lordships’ House for a secondary market to thrive. But that secondary market needs to be effective; it needs to be transparent and accountable. That is the really important point. To use the words of my noble friend the Minister, we are seeking light-touch regulation to ensure that we can absolutely guarantee to individuals who want to go online the right level of information, from which they can then make a decision to purchase.
In the past, we have not had the legal support for consumers to have that information available. As the Minister rightly points out, the four key elements are information, face value, seat number and row number. It is absolutely right and proper that someone who is disabled or in a wheelchair knows that they can have access to that seat before they make that purchase. At the moment, that is not the case. Following this legislation, if your Lordships agree to the Motion in my name, all those details and information will be available before a decision is made and before the purchase takes place—not after the purchase has taken place. That is in subsection (8)(b) of the proposed new clause. It is an exceptionally important point for the secondary ticket operators to recognise when they implement this legislation, as I hope they do.
The second point is that for too long the terms and conditions set by the original event organisers have not taken full legal precedence. If you are the event organiser and you are putting on Glastonbury, for example, and request pre-registration to ensure that the person who is buying the ticket is pre-registered and, in the case of Glastonbury, that there is a photo—that is what the organisers want—it must be right that those terms and conditions take precedence. They do so because Glastonbury does not want touting. They do so because in many cases there are law and order issues. It should be right for theatres to decide whether they want children under the age of four, for example, to come to a performance when they might possibly disturb other people’s enjoyment of the evening. Those terms and conditions, however, must meet the fairness test and they must be legal. That is on the face of the Motion. That is vital, so that there is no avoidance of doubt: the action taken by event organisers in setting terms and conditions must meet the fairness test and must be legal.
The two Motions that were originally tabled by the Minister covered a duty to report criminal activity and the review. I am most grateful to her for her consideration of the many aspects of these tickets and the information that we wish to see provided on them. The matter has been considered in full by her team and, indeed, by her. I give one case in point. The movers of the original amendment were very keen to see a booking reference on the ticket. This would enable an individual to check with the event organisers whether that ticket was valid. Apparently, neither a booking reference number nor a ticket ID number falls within the “main characteristics” of a ticket and, therefore, under EU law, we cannot require that information to be provided. There are different legal opinions on that. There are many lawyers who believe that an essential characteristic —indeed, a main characteristic—of a ticket is its original ID number. We recognise, however, that government advice was that this is not the case. This is a compromise amendment and the result of many hours of negotiation. I hope that, when we come to the review, that issue will be looked at in more detail.
It is also important that, while we are putting the responsibility on the secondary market through this Motion to take a whole series of steps, at the same time we recognise that the event organisers need to reflect during the review on how they can improve the opportunities for resale. Resale is a difficult and sensitive subject, but to have good relationships with your consumers and your fans, looking at resale under certain circumstances is a very important priority for the event organisers. Wimbledon’s policy on non-transferable tickets is that, provided that the ticket is returned before the start of play, the buyer gets a full refund. The ECB allows face-value resale to family and friends; it will not cancel face-value on the secondary market. The Oval and Lord’s offer full refunds and ticket exchanges. The 2015 Rugby World Cup will have a full ticket exchange. So event organisers are very much aware of the importance of keeping good relationships with their fans and recognising that sometimes it is not possible to go to an event, maybe due to a family crisis, and that where possible resale policies should be put in place. I very much hope that, during the process of the very important review that the Minister has announced today, the question of resale will also be considered in detail.
It is right that when the Secretary of State at the DCMS, who has policy responsibility for this subject, appoints the chair of the review, he considers in detail the points raised in both Houses before proposing the final terms of reference. It has become clear from your Lordships’ interventions on all sides of the House, and from the excellent work of the all-party group on this subject led by Sharon Hodgson and Mike Weatherley, that a thorough investigation of the operation of the secondary market is essential. We need to understand why that £1.5 billion of fraud has taken place and to address it; we need to look carefully at the business models employed.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
Before the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, responds, perhaps, rather than repeating them, I will say that I share the many tributes that have been made during this debate to and by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. They have been made by the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones, Lord Stoneham and Lord Holmes, the noble Baronesses, Lady Heyhoe Flint and Lady Hayter, and the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, with his deep knowledge of the football world. On his question, the Bill provides for the measure to come into force two months after Royal Assent—so ahead of the Ashes and the Rugby World Cup, I hope.
I am also grateful for the points made by my predecessor, my noble friend Lord Younger, who did so much for enforcement of IP and the battle against counterfeiting. I will take away his various ideas, notably for dealing with fraud, and look forward to discussing his questions with him and feeding them into the review. I was also interested in his reference to sunsetting, which is one of the ideas that we look at in our Better Regulation work in the business department.
My noble friend Lord Borwick raised two important issues relating to how the amendments affect the secondary market in terms of employment and market share. As has been said, we have yet to set the terms of reference for the review, but I assure him that those issues will be considered for inclusion. He also expressed the concern that the amendment might criminalise consumers who give incorrect information. I reassure him that it will not introduce any criminal offences; the enforcement is but by civil penalties.
I can confirm that the blanket protection on ticket resale of the kind cited by the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, is not provided for in the amendment. I reiterate what I said earlier on this important point: terms that prohibit or restrict resale above a particular price are assessable for fairness. They are not always fair and are not binding on the consumer if that is the case.
This is, of course, a compromise provision. The Government were not willing to jeopardise the passage of the Consumer Rights Bill. Therefore, while we share some of the concerns raised about how the industry could interpret the new legislation, it is up to it to show that it treats all fans fairly and to make these changes a success. We have a statutory review, which will be an opportunity to look at this matter and at many of the issues debated today. I know that this House will be very interested in the results of the review and that many noble Lords will feed in their thoughts and ideas. I should make it clear, as the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, touched on the subject, that the review is a joint one between the DCMS and BIS—the reviewer is to be appointed jointly by the two Secretaries of State. I note the various points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and will take them away to ensure that we have the right independent chair and the right terms of reference.
I thank noble Lords for their expert scrutiny of the Bill, and in particular for the provisions we are discussing today. I look forward to the Bill receiving Royal Assent.
Lord Moynihan
My Lords, I express my further thanks to all noble Lords who have participated in this debate on what is, as has been rightly pointed out, a compromise provision. For the avoidance of doubt on the part of one or two speakers who may not have fully appreciated it, all those who have spoken in favour of this Motion reiterated that it is very important for a secondary market to thrive. We are looking through this Motion for an effective, transparent and accountable secondary market. I appreciate in all humility the generous personal comments that have been made and ask the House to agree to the Motion standing in my name.