International Travel

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts

Thursday 1st July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not know where the noble Viscount’s confusion has come from, but it is made very clear that when it comes to amber and red countries, the advice is not to travel. Of course, there will be people who will have personal reasons to travel, such as for a funeral, et cetera, but the advice is not to travel and the Government are very clear on that. With regard to PCR tests, in the UK it costs £85 for a two-test package or under £50 for a single-test package. If I look at comparisons, for example, the median cost of just one PCR test in the US is £90 and the average cost for a PCR for travel abroad in Spain is between €130 and €240, so we compare quite well to that. Whatever the cost of the PCR test, it is important that we bear down on those costs and that we take the advantage of economies of scale as more people are able to travel in the future.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

My Lords, the time allocated for this Question has elapsed. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, who did not get in.

High Speed Rail (West Midlands–Crewe) Bill

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage
Monday 30th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, I had hoped that it would not be necessary for me to detain the House this afternoon because the noble Baroness, whom we hold in very high regard, would accept this amendment. However, I do not think that she is going to accept it so, alas, I will have to detain the House for a few minutes in putting forward the case for it. It is fundamental to the whole of the high-speed rail project that it should serve not just the West Midlands and the north-west but the East Midlands and Yorkshire. If it is a project just for one half of the country, it will by definition leave the other half behind.

If we just build a high-speed line up to Manchester and do not build a new railway up to Sheffield and Leeds and connecting on to the east coast main line, then—coming back to the Victorians—this would be the equivalent of the Victorians building a railway up to Manchester but leaving the canals to serve Sheffield and Leeds. It is fundamental to the project that it serves both halves of the country, and the great danger at the moment is that the Government are on track to cancelling or severely delaying the eastern part of the project. The Minister is not able to accept this amendment, which simply requires the Government to come forward with legislation for the eastern leg at the same time as that for the western leg. It was always integral to HS2 that phase 2b—the extension of the line north from Birmingham to Manchester—should take place at the same time as the extension of the line north-east from Birmingham to Sheffield and Leeds.

All that this proposal seeks—there is strong cross-party support for it—is to hold the Government to the original conception of HS2, which they have said they accept and have not actually said they reject. However, they will not take the steps required to deliver it. Those of us who know how government works know that when the Government do not rule out an option but refuse to take the practical steps required to deliver it, we should smell a rat and act accordingly. That is the purpose of this amendment.

The noble Baroness may drag the rug from under my feet and tell me that the Government are definitely committed to introducing legislation for the eastern leg of HS2 to Sheffield and Leeds at the same time as the Manchester legislation. If she says that, I will gladly withdraw my amendment. If she says that she is prepared to consider doing that between now and Third Reading I will go the last mile to reach consensus with her and withdraw this amendment. However, if she cannot give that commitment, then the House would be reasonable in concluding that the reason she will not is because the Government are contemplating cancelling the eastern leg of HS2 outright. This will undermine the integrity of the project. It will not be levelling up. By definition, it will level down for the East Midlands, Yorkshire and the north-east and we should carry this amendment today.

I am very glad to have the support of some of the speakers who will follow me. I would like to call the noble Lord, Lord Curry, my noble friend because he and I spent many months together on the economic inquiry into the future of the north-east, some five years ago. He is a very powerful champion of the north-east and completely understands the vital importance of the eastern leg of HS2, not just to the cities that it directly serves—Derby, Nottingham, Sheffield and Leeds—but to the east coast main line going further north-east.

My noble friend Lord Blunkett and the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, are very powerful champions for the city of Sheffield. I am told that I have managed a near-miraculous feat in uniting them this afternoon, which I am delighted to see. I welcome the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, to the House, particularly as he has now joined the club of former Transport Secretaries, which is the most distinguished club in the House. He was an immensely distinguished Transport Secretary and carried the HS2 project forward for more than three years. It is in no small part due to him personally that we are debating the Bill this afternoon.

This is not a party matter at all; the rhetoric of the Government is about levelling up and bringing the benefits of high-speed rail. We will hear all these phrases from the Minister in a moment. She is already nodding—she has them in the brief in front of her. The benefits of high-speed rail should be extended to the east Midlands, Yorkshire and the north-east. You cannot have the benefits of high-speed rail extended to the east Midlands, Yorkshire and the north-east unless they actually have high-speed rail. She will also have in her brief that rail should be integrated; they have this thing called the integrated rail plan, which we will hear lots about. Well, you cannot integrate nothing with something. King Lear had the answer to that one three centuries ago, or whatever it was:

“Nothing will come of nothing.”


If there is no high-speed line going to Sheffield and Leeds and connecting to the east coast main line, there is nothing to integrate. If the Minister wants an integrated rail plan and she wants the benefits of high-speed rail extended to the east Midlands, Yorkshire and the north-east, I am afraid there is only one way to do it: build the high-speed rail line through to Toton—the junction station between Derby and Nottingham—and to Sheffield, Leeds and the north-east.

I do not want to detain the House unduly. I set out all these arguments in Grand Committee. I even changed my amendment, in intense consultation with the clerks, to meet the objection of the Minister that we might delay the project; there is nothing I would less want to do. The form of this amendment involves no delay to the construction of the railway line from Birmingham to Crewe because it simply requires that “within six months” of the passage of the Act, the Government should come forward with plans for legislation for the eastern leg.

I end with two key points, so that your Lordships understand the vital importance of the proposition we are talking about today. If high-speed rail proceeds only to Manchester, and does not proceed to Sheffield and Leeds, when HS2 is completed the journey time from London to Manchester will be one hour, from London to Sheffield, and to Leeds, it will be two hours, and from London to Newcastle it will be three hours. Do I need to explain to your Lordships what the impact will be on business location decisions and the whole economic future of the country if that situation applies to these cities for most of the 21st century? If we are about building one nation, giving equal opportunity and incentives for all parts of the country to grow, and giving these phenomenally important cities of the east Midlands, Yorkshire and the north-east an opportunity to compete on a level playing field with the western cities of the country, then we must pass this amendment today. If we get into a situation where HS2 is only half-built, it will be the equivalent of the great Victorian pioneers building railways in the western part of the country only and leaving the whole of the eastern part with canals. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind all noble Lords in the Chamber to maintain social distancing for everyone’s safety. I call the next speaker, the noble Lord, Lord Curry of Kirkharle.

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB) [V]]

My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, whose commitment to HS2 is very well known. I must say that I am impressed with his tie. I have a pair of socks which I clearly need to donate to him to match. As the noble Lord has mentioned, I have the honour of being a member of a commission which was established by the North East LEP and which was chaired by the noble Lord about five years ago. It was a revealing exercise even for someone like myself, who has lived in the north-east all my life.

It is almost slightly irritating for those of us who live in the far north of England—the north-east or the north-west—that, when viewed from London or the south-east, the north begins somewhere north of Nottingham and stretches to Sheffield and Manchester, while the vast area of England beyond that disappears into a fog and is too often regarded by those who live there as being neglected and ignored. This is the case with the existing plans for HS2. I have never regarded HS2 as just an attempt to deliver passengers from Euston to Birmingham 15 minutes earlier than is the case at present, but as a necessary investment to increase the capacity of the rail network. It is essential that the increased capacity planned is extended further north, beyond the current plan.

The north-east has some interesting and contrasting economic features. On the one hand, the region has one of the highest, if not the highest, proportion of GVA being exported of any English region, thanks to some very large companies such as Nissan. On the other hand, the north-east has some of the lowest indices in England, whether it be unemployment, average income levels, many social indicators, productivity and so on. For all these reasons—whether to support existing successful businesses or to help level up and address the long-standing economic and social issues—we need a commitment from Her Majesty’s Government to extend HS2 from the West Midlands to Leeds, as this amendment suggests, so that Yorkshire and the north-east can look forward to improved connectivity to assist in economic growth and address many of these long-seated social problems.

We all welcome the Government’s relatively recent announcement to invest in a whole range of infrastructure projects in the north. Many of these have been on our wish list for decades and are an important start to address the levelling-up commitment of the Government, but there is a very long way to go to satisfy the residents of the north of England. Supporting this amendment to extend HS2 would be a further, and very important, welcome step by the Government; it would show that they are committed to supporting the north and delivering an integrated rail network, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has very effectively outlined. It is essential to improve access and assist in delivering economic growth. I do hope that the Minister will change her mind and accept this amendment.

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The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is a great supporter of this project. I applaud the noble Lord once again for his tenacity and his diligence, and I remind him that the Prime Minister has been clear that the Government’s plans for the HS2 eastern leg will be set out in the integrated rail plan, and that this will be laid before Parliament within the timeframe of his amendment. I hope I have made the noble Lord sufficiently content, and that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

My Lords, I have received no other requests to speak, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Adonis.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, there was a rare degree of unanimity in the House, and I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken with a very great degree of passion. I think there is a great sense among noble Lords that the future of the country is at stake in the way that we proceed with HS2, just as the country that we live in today was to a very substantial extent shaped by those great Victorian railways and the way that they connected—or, in some cases, failed to connect—the great cities of our nation. The decisions that we take in Parliament over the next year or two on HS2 will shape the whole future of this country over the next century. Therefore, even though this has been a lengthy debate, I think it has been an important one, and hugely important for the direction of the country.

I said there has been near unanimity. I am afraid that the noble Baroness’s words do not go far enough; let me just do an exegesis on her words so that noble Lords are very clear about what she said. She said: “The Government have been very clear that the Prime Minister’s plans for the eastern leg will be set out in the integrated rail plan.” However, the key question is: what are the Prime Minister’s plans? Giving a commitment to set out the Prime Minister’s plans is absolutely pointless, unless those plans commit to building the eastern leg of HS2, which the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin, his successors as Transport Secretary and I, on behalf of the then Government in 2010, committed to bringing forward as an integrated plan. Absolutely central to the whole philosophy of HS2 for the future of the country from the outset was that it should serve both the western and eastern parts of the country, and not, as one noble Lord said, replace a north-south divide with an east-west divide.

If the noble Baroness, who, as I say, we hold in very great respect, could commit to bringing forward legislation on the eastern leg at the same time as the western leg—that there will be definite legislation at the same time—I will withdraw my amendment. Is that a commitment the noble Baroness can make? Alas, my noble friend Lord Rooker invited her to rise to the occasion, seize the moment and make a declaration from the Dispatch Box—

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[The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 2. I remind noble Lords that Members other than the mover and the Minister may speak only once and that short questions of elucidation are discouraged. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Clause 22: Burial grounds

Amendment 2

Moved by

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Amendment 3 not moved.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 4. I remind noble Lords that Members other than the mover and the Minister may speak only once and that short questions of elucidation are discouraged. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in the group to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Amendment 4

Moved by

Ship Recycling (Facilities and Requirements for Hazardous Materials on Ships) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2020 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations will be made under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 in order to give effect to the Northern Ireland protocol in the withdrawal agreement.

The United Kingdom has already introduced European Union exit legislation on ship recycling. The Ship Recycling (Facilities and Requirements for Hazardous Materials on Ships) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, approved by your Lordships’ House on 29 January 2019, will come into force at the end of this year. The purpose of these regulations is to ensure that our retained legislation on ship recycling will continue to be legally operable, and to transfer functions from the European Commission to the Secretary of State.

The regulations before the Committee today are necessary to implement the Northern Ireland protocol, which addresses the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland. The Northern Ireland protocol includes provisions in Article 5 which specify that certain provisions of EU law will apply in respect of Northern Ireland. The EU ship recycling regulation is one of the provisions listed in Annexe 2 of the protocol. As a consequence, EU law will affect ship recycling facilities in Northern Ireland.

The EU ship recycling regulation transposed key parts of the Hong Kong convention on recycling of ships into EU law. The provisions apply to ship recycling facilities in the EU and to EU-flagged merchant ships above 500 gross tonnes. They do not apply to military vessels.

The main provisions of the EU regulation have applied from 31 December 2018 and include: rules about the authorisation and permitting of ship recycling facilities; the steps EU and non-EU ship recycling facilities should take if they want to be listed in the EU’s approved list of ship recycling facilities, known as the European list; a requirement that all EU-flagged ships must be recycled at an approved ship recycling facility, according to a certified ship recycling plan; and a requirement that all new EU-flagged ships must carry a valid inventory of hazardous materials. The EU regulation also requires existing EU-flagged ships, as well as non-EU flagged ships calling at European ports, to carry an inventory of hazardous materials by the end of 2020.

The new draft regulations amend the 2019 exit regulations. This in turn amends the retained EU ship recycling regulation and devolved legislation which affects Northern Ireland. I stress at this point that we have consulted Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive about the changes to the draft regulations, and they have given their consent.

This instrument makes two substantive changes. First, it amends the provisions affecting ship recycling facilities in Northern Ireland to reflect our obligations under the Northern Ireland Protocol. In particular, it prohibits facilities not on the EU’s approved European list from recycling EU-flagged ships, and it requires competent authorities in Northern Ireland to notify the Secretary of State about any change in the authorisation or permitting status of their facilities. It also requires the Secretary of State to notify the European Commission of any such changes.

The impact of the protocol means that the existing arrangements for Northern Ireland facilities will remain the same at the end of the implementation period. Facilities in Northern Ireland will remain listed in Part A of the European list, which covers facilities located in the EU and in the European Economic Area. Secondly, the draft regulations will incorporate changes to reflect the fact that, by the end of this year, existing UK ships and non-UK ships calling at UK ports must carry an inventory of hazardous materials. This is a welcome development, because new ships are already required to carry a certified inventory. Applying this provision to existing ships should result in a more coherent and complete regime for the safe and environmentally sound recycling of ships.

Ensuring the safe and environmentally sound dismantling and recycling of ships at the end of their operational life has been a concern for a number of years. Many ships are currently dismantled on beaches in Asia, with little regard for human safety or protection for the environment. It is important, therefore, that we continue to have an effective ship recycling regime, which protects public health and the environment.

The changes introduced by this instrument will ensure that environmental law continues to function at the end of the transition period and demonstrates that the UK is implementing its commitments under the Northern Ireland protocol. I commend these regulations to the Committee.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has withdrawn, so the next speaker is the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw.

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Motion agreed.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

The Grand Committee stands adjourned until 3.45 pm. I remind Members to sanitise their desks and chairs before leaving the Room.

High Speed Rail (West Midlands-Crewe) Bill

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 9th November 2020 Grand Committee

I would like to make one point about poor connectivity in the north of England. There was a little flurry of debate over the summer about whether the House of Lords should be relocated to York. It would take me longer to get from Carlisle to York on the train than it does from Carlisle to London, so poor is the connectivity in the north of England. I would like to see very fast connections to London but also, as part of this, fast connections across the Pennines. This would make the journey to York, and places in the east Midlands, an awful lot quicker as well. We have this comprehensive plan for improving transport connectivity, and we are either serious about this levelling-up agenda or we are not. We need to know from the Government what their position is.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

After the next speaker, I will call the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, who is present in the Grand Committee.

[Lord Haselhurst (Con) [V]]

My Lords, first, I must pray for your indulgence, as a Member of your Lordships’ House who has not been here long enough to understand in depth all our procedures in handling legislation. My experience of procedure was gained in the other place. It was perhaps that background which made me think, as I looked at the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, that it had all the smack of the Second Reading debate about it. Indeed, in the content of the speeches made already, we have ranged pretty far away from the literal purposes that could be ascribed to the amendment. However, I doff my metaphorical hat in the direction of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, recognising that he probably has greater paternity rights for HS2 than any other colleague.

It is a project that does excite me, for all sorts of different reasons. I am a Yorkshireman, and I certainly would be stung by any possibility that the full concept of HS2 was not to be completed, and that east of the Pennines was going to be neglected. I represented a Greater Manchester seat for a number of years in the House of Commons, and I also have great feeling for the mood that, somehow, the north—be it one side of the Pennines or the other—has been left behind. Therefore, I am heartened by the commitment that the Government have shown so far, even if it does not go as far as some noble Lords would wish.

I could also extend my geographical connections to the Welwyn Viaduct. I worked in Welwyn Garden City for about 10 years and it was a sight I saw every day. I recognise the tremendous constraints that presently exist on that railway. But I do not see how this amendment—although it has been the spark for the wide-ranging debate we have been having—actually helps matters, so far as the construction of phase 2a is concerned. It would be a danger, in fact: if we were to have prolonged debate about the necessity of HS2 phase 2b, that could actually delay progress on the West Midlands to Crewe section of the railway.

My last point is that the Government cannot afford to waste the political capital that they may be said to have gained in the last couple of years by their commitment, now confirmed, to this railway. It is fundamental to their credibility that progress must be made. I do not think that any lingering doubts that have been legitimately expressed by my noble colleagues should stop us cracking on with HS2 phase 2a. That in itself will create a momentum to see that, in due time, the whole job gets done.

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I want to see works on this section of the railway under way as soon as possible. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, wants to see that too and, on the basis of this reassurance, I trust he feels able to withdraw his amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

I have received no requests to speak after the Minister.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

I am grateful to all colleagues who have spoken, and to the Minister for replying to the debate. To be absolutely clear, I have no intention whatever of seeking to delay phase 2a. This amendment is a device to get a debate on what is to happen to the scheme as a whole. I am completely with all of my colleagues who have said that the importance of this is that we cannot see phase 2a in isolation. We obviously would not build a 36-mile high-speed railway in isolation; the interaction between phases 2a and 2b is the essence of the project, and I therefore make no apology for tabling this amendment.

A lot of good points were raised in the discussion. I fully respect the fact that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, did not support the project to start with but she made the critical point that to build a railway stopping in Birmingham, and therefore to deny the north the benefits of the scheme and extend them only to the Midlands, would be perverse and counterproductive.

The point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about the importance of continuity and mobile factories was very well made. One reason why our infrastructure costs are so high in this country is because of the stop-go attitude we have adopted historically to the building of major infrastructure. She mentioned the electrification of the Great Western Railway, which I also authorised when I was Secretary of State. The estimate that I was given then, in 2009, for the entire cost of the electrification of the Great Western from London right through to Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea was £1 billion. The noble Baroness can probably tell me what the latest estimate is, but when I last checked I think it was heading towards £4 billion, and it has been substantially descoped. For example, it is not going to Bristol Temple Meads but will now stop at Cardiff, which I would be very concerned about if I was in south Wales, and it has been massively delayed. That goes to the heart of the point the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, made about continuity in projects. If we separate Birmingham to Leeds from Birmingham to Crewe and Manchester, and turn it into a separate project with discontinuity between the two, that alone would probably ultimately double or triple the cost of the project, as well as delaying it and therefore delaying its economic benefits.

My noble friend Lord Liddle said that there is a debate in the further north-west, going up towards Scotland in Carlisle and Cumbria, about the benefits. He is absolutely right that there will be direct benefits because it will take an hour off the journey time to Carlisle from London. However, he said that the saving in journey time would be to London and the south-east in that respect. It is absolutely crucial to understand that there is also a massive journey time saving to the Midlands, because the first stop on the line out of London is in the West Midlands and that is a huge benefit to the north-west, as it would be to the east Midlands and to Leeds if the eastern leg is built.

I am not going to respond to all the other points raised, except to congratulate my noble friend Lord Berkeley on his massive ingenuity in bringing in the services to Paris and Brussels. The Minister did not rise to that challenge but I assume that she will address it in due course.

Coming to the Minister’s response, I am now much more concerned. She speaks with such elegance that she is of course beguiling, but what she actually said in the content of her speech left me much more concerned after than before. She said something which I was not aware of before, but which I will take up and probe significantly on Report. She said that there will be Bills—plural—for phase 2b. I have never seen that stated by the Government in the past. It was always the intention, and I thought it still was the formal intention of Her Majesty’s Government, that phase 2b —that is, Crewe through to Manchester and Birmingham through to Leeds—would be encompassed in one hybrid parliamentary Bill, not more. Because I have sat on both sides of the fence, not just as Secretary of State but when in more recent times I was privileged to be on the board of HS2, I know that three years ago we were then preparing for a single Bill to take HS2 from Crewe through to Manchester, and Birmingham through to Sheffield and Leeds. I think that under the constrained proceedings of the Grand Committee, the Minister cannot respond to me again but maybe she might respond me to in writing.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

She can.

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[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, I say to my colleagues and friends who lead local authorities and are MPs for constituencies in the east Midlands and Yorkshire that they should take careful note of that extremely significant statement, because what it means is—and just at that point, the Division Bell rings.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

But that is not for us.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

Is it not? It is the Commons? It is so confusing. What that means is that the east Midlands—which has all the challenges of deprivation and economic growth referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, in his opening remarks—and Yorkshire will now definitely be downgraded relative to the north-west in the construction of HS2.

The important point about the separation of the hybrid Bills is that it will not just mean that the phasing is now separated, which risks the continuity referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe—he has huge experience of constructing railways, as a former managing director of London Underground, so he absolutely understands this point. If the Bills are to be handled and passed separately, it is also very likely that there will be a substantial period between what is now to become phase 2b and phase 2c—Birmingham to the east Midlands, Sheffield and Leeds—even if the Government proceed with phase 2c. The separation of the Bills makes it all the more likely that phase 2c will be delayed for a substantial period beyond phase 2b.

I am grateful to the Minister for replying to the debate but I am more concerned after her remarks than I was before, and I hope that local authority and political leaders in the east Midlands and Yorkshire will have taken very careful note of what the Government have said today—a categorical statement that they intend to downgrade and possibly deny entirely the benefits of HS2 to the east Midlands and Yorkshire.

As I said, there is a problem of language here. The Minister said it was the Government’s policy to provide the benefits of high-speed rail to the east Midlands and Yorkshire. There is no way you can provide the benefits of high-speed rail to the east Midlands and Yorkshire unless you provide high-speed rail to the east Midlands and Yorkshire. The Government are using weasel words such as “benefits of” without making the commitment which must flow from that if these words are to have real meaning—actually to build the high-speed line. The Minister is smiling at me but the one thing she will not do, and has not done today, is make a commitment actually to build this railway. I say to her, as I say to the local authority leaders and MPs in these regions, that they must not accept a shedload of waffle from the Government about benefits, reviews, staging or integrated plans if there is not a commitment actually to build the railway.

At the end of the day there will either be a railway or not be a railway and the whole tendency of government policy at the moment is not to build the railway from Birmingham to Leeds, and that will have a really devastating impact on the society and economies of the east Midlands, Yorkshire and the north-east if that is the case. I make no apology for raising this issue. I will return to it on Report. But at this stage—does the Minister wish to come back? I am very keen that she does.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

Actually, the Minister has—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

We cannot have a debate. To clarify the procedure: if the proposer of an amendment, in their winding-up remarks, asks a further question of the Minister, the Minister may respond to those remarks. There is not then the opportunity—

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

I sense the mood of the Grand Committee. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

Minister? You are fine?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am good.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

Just to clarify again: if the proposer of an amendment, in their winding-up remarks, raises a question for the Minister, the Minister may respond to it. We cannot have a further debate in Grand Committee under the current system.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

We now come to the group consisting of Amendment 2. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate.

Amendment 2

Moved by

Electric Scooters

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord will know that enforcement is an operational matter for the police but I reassure him that over a one-week period in July, 100 people were stopped on the streets of London and were issued with fines; some of them had their e-scooters confiscated. I disagree with the noble Lord that, pending the regulatory review, we should not enforce. We do not know the outcome of the review; it is certainly our view at this time that we cannot guarantee that any changes to regulations will be made.

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)]

I declare an interest as somebody who used one of these e-scooters over the summer while on holiday in Paris. It was actually very enjoyable. May I encourage some proportionality in looking at the legislation and laws when they are brought in?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I am so pleased that the noble Lord enjoyed his trip on an e-scooter. I too have ridden one—indoors, at the party conference. He is completely right: we do not intend to shut the door on all these different and new types of transport, which are incredibly important to all sorts of people. Safety is our priority; that is the number one factor.