Public Service Broadcasting (Communications and Digital Committee Report)

Lord McNally Excerpts

Thursday 27th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, I first welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, to the Front Bench; I hope that she has a very long stay. I am just passing through, but it was a great pleasure to hear what she had to say. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to Jimmy Gordon, Lord Gordon of Strathblane, who sadly died during the Covid crisis.

However, my first duty is to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, and the members of his Select Committee, including the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, my noble friend Lady Grender and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, who spoke today. Although delayed in coming before the House, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, pointed out, the report has proved to be most timely.

Our debate takes place in the shadow of, and the fallout from, Lord Dyson’s report into the methods used by Martin Bashir to obtain his interview with Princess Diana in 1995 and the failure of the BBC to investigate promptly and properly concerns about those methods. To borrow from Shakespeare, what has been revealed were grievous faults, and grievously has the BBC’s reputation suffered as a consequence.

We now of course have a feeding frenzy, calling for radical reform of the BBC. It is often led by financial and political vested interests that have long wanted to see the BBC underfunded and marginalised. Perhaps the only genuine link between today’s debate and Lord Dyson’s report on the errors and misdeeds of 25 years ago is Prince William’s observation that:

“In an era of fake news, public service broadcasting and a free press have never been more important.”


As the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, pointed out, before rushing to yet another round of governance reform in response to events of 25 years ago, let us remember that the BBC’s new chairman, Richard Sharp, and new director-general, Tim Davie, were both appointed by this Government quite recently. They will work to a governance structure again created only recently by this Conservative Government. This recently introduced governance provides for the BBC a unitary board to run the institution, but with Ofcom as a wholly external regulator, ensuring that the BBC is held to its charter and agreement obligations.

As recently as 18 March, the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, in response to a question of mine, said:

“The Government have been very clear about the value of the BBC, particularly in the pandemic, during which it has served to educate, inspire, inform and act as a crucial and reliable source of news.”—[Official Report, 18/3/21; col. 437.]


Lord Reith could not have put it better.

The pandemic has conclusively demonstrated the importance of having well-funded sources of education, information and entertainment freely available to every household in the UK. Of course, there has been an explosion of choice from the subscription streaming services, which has been a welcome distraction for many of us. However, these are all US-based, cost money, do not offer news and analysis and do not reflect British culture or the nations and regions of the UK.

The PSBs are key to the framework that sustains British culture, exports it abroad and helps to ensure that the soft power the UK has exerted around the world for decades is still potent today. Despite the overwhelming financial muscle of the subscription video on demand services, thanks to the multibillion-dollar corporations and American hedge funds behind them, the UK still punches well above its weight in the audio-visual export market. The vast majority of that comes from PSB investment. It is the interactive nature of the ecology delivered by the PSBs that brings the cultural and economic benefits to the UK.

Just before Christmas, Ofcom published its consultation on the future of PSBs. The Ofcom headline was that the UK media sector is a success story, with public service broadcasting at its core. Lest it be thought that I am concerned only with the BBC, let me point out that ITV plays an important part in that success.

It was a stroke of genius by the Conservative Government to create ITV as a regional confederation in 1955. I was born in the north-west and I still think of myself as coming from “Granada land”. The late Lord Bernstein brought to Granada an ethos and a regional identity which is still reflected in ITV today, and ITN remains a worthy competitor to the BBC, Sky News and Channel 4 News. While talking of Channel 4, I entirely endorse the very powerful speech given by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. To even consider the privatisation of Channel 4 would be an act of ideological vandalism.

The report we are debating reminds us of the value of PSBs, and we should embrace it in its entirety. However, there are two particular recommendations I commend to the House. First, the recommendation for an independent and transparent process for setting the licence fee is urgent. Even as we speak, the BBC is negotiating behind closed doors with the Government for a licence fee settlement from April next year. There is no transparency, and the Government have not been slow to show their teeth over the last few days. The committee recommended that the Government

“should establish an independent body … the BBC Funding Commission, to oversee the process for setting the licence fee”.

It also stated explicitly:

“In the current competitive and fast-moving environment the BBC needs to be properly funded.”


That funding commission would consult and make recommendations to the Secretary of State. The Government should demonstrate their commitment to transparency by setting up such a commission immediately.

Secondly, there have been increasingly urgent calls, including from Ofcom, to update the prominence regime so that PSB can be found easily across all platforms by consumers. As the report states,

“the current regime is centred on linear TV, which will increasingly devalue over time”

and the prominence regime must be

“updated for the digital age to reflect new ways of accessing content.”

This legislation cannot wait, and there is no reason why this could not be put into the online safety Bill to ensure its safe passage.

I hope that the Government will use this report and the recommendations it contains as a road map in plotting the way ahead on PSB. My noble friend Lord Wallace and others talked about the dangers of deregulation. In a debate in this House on 25 March 2003, speaking from these Benches on the Second Reading of the then Communications Bill, I quoted the distinguished American broadcaster, Ted Koppel, speaking about the Reagan Administration’s deregulation of American broadcasting in 1987. He said:

“We are ripping down those institutions, large and small, within which democratic culture was intended to be undertaken. Institutions that once destroyed, amidst the whimsical destructiveness of the market, will be extraordinarily difficult to reconstitute”.—[Official Report, 25/3/03; col. 669.]


That is a warning from the past, but it is a warning about the future. That is the crossroads at which we now stand. The members of this committee will be able to look back with pride on the work they have done. Let us hope that the Prime Minister and his Government will be able to look back with similar pride on the decisions they are about to make on the future of a media ecology which has been essential in determining how we speak to each other and how we speak to the world.

Music Festivals: Covid-19-related Cancellations

Lord McNally Excerpts

Tuesday 27th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am extremely happy to clarify those points. There are a number of interlocking issues—the noble Lord smiles, but it is true—into which we are carrying out reviews. I refer to the events research programme to understand the impact on public health as a result of those events; our review on social distancing; our review on certification and, which is connected, the global travel review.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, pointed out, the sector has already been impacted by the failure of the Brexit negotiations to protect the creative industries. In the Minister’s reply today, she did not say no—she said perhaps. Is it not time to stop squirming? We are now into April and this sector needs a decision.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We are not squirming and we are not hesitating. We are progressing as fast as we can, but the noble Lord would be the first to criticise the Government if we opened too early and the public health crisis re-emerged.

Football: European Super League

Lord McNally Excerpts

Tuesday 20th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I do not think that the owners of the clubs to which the noble Lord refers can be in any doubt about the strength of feeling both from the fans and from this Government.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, will the Minister ask Tracey Crouch to hold public hearings around the regions while she conducts her inquiry?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am sure that she will consider all her options to make sure that this is a transparent and effective review.

Audiovisual Media Services (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Lord McNally Excerpts

Tuesday 13th April 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, indicated, this debate is but one small piece of a larger jigsaw which Parliament will have to put together in the new Session in May. I pay tribute to the Secretary of State and his colleagues, including the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, for the painstaking way in which they have gone about consultation and involvement in preparing for the online harms legislation. I hope that they will go one step further by including pre-legislative scrutiny in the process by which the proposals will be brought forward.

Nineteen years ago I sat on the Puttnam committee, the Joint Committee of both Houses which gave pre-legislative scrutiny to what became the Communications Act 2003. That pre-legislative scrutiny made for a better Bill. The SI before us makes a number of tweaks to that Act, which was, of course, the legislation which created Ofcom. I remember that pundits at the time were predicting that the media vested interests would overwhelm Ofcom—or, as it was indelicately put then, “Murdoch’s lawyers will have them for breakfast”. This proved not to be the case, but there is no doubt that the same vested interests will be at work trying to draw the teeth of legislation designed to limit their powers to make money. As my noble friend Lord Foster and the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, indicated, who regulates what could turn out to be a lawyer-fest.

The Communications Act 2003, which we are amending today, contains the crucial Puttnam amendment, imposing on Ofcom the statutory duty to further the interests of citizens. That has been crucial in ensuring that regulatory decisions are not dictated by market criteria but governed by proper considerations of the broader public interest. It is essential that the Puttnam protections appear in the new Act. That statutory duty becomes even more important as Ofcom takes on the role of online regulator. As the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, outlined, it will be essential in reinforcing its ability to protect citizens, including children and the vulnerable, from a range of social harms as well as the threats to our democracy via fake news and disinformation.

Ofcom’s willingness to shoulder those responsibilities and the way it works with our other regulators—the ICO, the CMA and the Financial Conduct Authority—in the newly created digital regulation co-operation forum will depend on the effectiveness of the protection we now seek against internet harm. The protection of the citizen and of the wider public interest must remain part of the architecture of the regulatory system that we seek to put in place.

Social Media: Offensive Material

Lord McNally Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is right to raise the issue of the general public and the troubling example that he just shared with the House. However, banning anonymous accounts is not as simple as he suggests. They provide important protection for a wide range of vulnerable people, as well as journalists’ sources and others—so these are complex issues that we aim to address through the Bill.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I am interested in the Minister’s comment that the department is in discussions with the police about the use of existing powers. Would it not be a good idea for the police to pursue a number of high-profile cases of bullying of children, rampant racism or threats to our democracy under existing powers until we get the proper legislation in place?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Just to be clear, I was speaking on behalf of the Government in conversation with the police. The noble Lord will be aware that the primary responsibility for this matter sits with the Home Office. The police are independent in how they pursue these cases.

Office of Communications: Chair

Lord McNally Excerpts

Thursday 18th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government are supportive of a modern system of public service broadcasting that remains relevant and continues to meet the needs of UK audiences in future. Obviously, Ofcom, with its regulatory role in this capacity, is a crucial part of delivering this.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, earlier this week the Government published their external review, which said that the BBC is the most trusted broadcaster in the world. Is it not about time they started showing that they believe that in their statements and policies?

Australia: News Media and Digital Platforms Mandatory Bargaining Code

Lord McNally Excerpts

Thursday 25th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I fear I might be growled at by colleagues in the House if I answer the noble Lord’s question in full, so I will write to him with more detail on the online safety Bill. However, as he is aware, it will focus on user-generated content, platforms that allow user interaction, and search engines. More broadly on competition, the regime will lead to an enforceable code of conduct that will stimulate competition and innovation.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister has referred several times to the CMA’s digital markets unit as one of the weapons that will be at our disposal, but the CMA has called for new statutory powers for that unit. Will she commit to those statutory powers being included in the online harms Bill, which has just been referred to, as new powers for the digital markets unit?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The statutory powers for the digital markets unit specifically relate to the code of conduct and how it will apply to platforms that have strategic market status. If I have understood the noble Lord’s questions correctly, those are separate from the online harms Bill, but those powers will be put on a statutory basis.

Television Licence Evasion

Lord McNally Excerpts

Tuesday 26th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that there is a very important reform agenda. In their responses, the general public were roughly split evenly; those reporting through campaign groups were definitely —though I see the noble Baroness is shaking her head —in favour of the status quo. But we will not allow this to distract us; there is a great deal of effort going into looking at the current reform programme at the BBC.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister not agree that it is time to stop raiding the BBC licence fee for worthy causes when such actions do irreparable damage to the BBC’s capacity to maintain its support of our creative industries? Would the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, not be better employed supporting the charity StepChange in its campaign to have Clause 34 in the upcoming Financial Services Bill 2019-21, which gives statutory support and advice to those who get into debt?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, there is no raid going on of the BBC; quite the reverse. We are working towards much more transparency around the licence fee settlement and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has written to the director-general of the BBC asking for a breakdown of spend against the five charter purposes, so that we can work with a transparent and clear focus.

UK Musicians: EU Visa Arrangements

Lord McNally Excerpts

Wednesday 20th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his questions. I do not think the red lines were between DCMS and the Home Office; I think they were between the UK and the EU. We proposed a tailored deal for musicians and other cultural professionals and the EU did not accept it. On the correspondence and the discussions, my noble friend the Minister for Digital and Culture said yesterday in the other place that she would talk to BEIS and Home Office colleagues with a view to publishing the details of those discussions. On the noble Lord’s final point, we are consulting extensively with the sector to understand what it needs to be able to thrive once we emerge from the pandemic.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, that explanation just does not fit with all the briefings that have gone on on both sides of the channel about what really happened. What really happened is that the Government were inflexible in the TCA for fear of the European Research Group and other Brexit zealots anxious to protect the purity of Brexit. The Government have got to go back to the table on this. My advice to musicians would be to mobilise the millions of supporters, particularly among the young, who should be outraged at the betrayal of this important sector.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am surprised at the noble Lord’s remarks, because our inflexibility, as he describes it, was simply that we tried very hard in the negotiations to stand up for Britain’s brilliant cultural and creative sectors, and to reflect their request to us about what they needed from the deal. Perhaps the remark about inflexibility could be pointed elsewhere.

Online Harms Consultation

Lord McNally Excerpts

Wednesday 16th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The legislation will be ready next year. We will make final decisions on legislative timings nearer the time, but I think that my noble friend will have heard that the Secretary of State is minded to carry out pre-legislative scrutiny. I appreciate that some time has been taken on this. As my noble friend knows, we have taken a deliberately consultative approach on the Bill but are now working at pace to implement it.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

[Inaudible.]

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord needs to unmute himself. I am afraid that we still cannot hear him, so perhaps we should move on to my noble friend Lord Vaizey and see whether we can return to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, later.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

I call the noble Lord, Lord McNally, again.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, not guilty, but happy to get in. Earlier this year, the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, chaired a committee of this House which produced the report Digital Technology and the Resurrection of Trust, about the damage caused to our political and democratic system by online harm. The Government are choosing to ignore this. Does that not leave a massive stable door in the legislation? Will she assure me that the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, will be able to give evidence to pre-legislative scrutiny to make the case for action in this area?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The issue of political and democratic trust is obviously incredibly important. As I mentioned, trust has been severely eroded by social media companies and other platforms. By restoring that trust and managing the content that could be physically or psychologically harmful, we will help to narrow that gap.