House of Lords: Reform

Lord McNally Excerpts

Monday 3rd October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend that a reformed House of Lords would, like the House of Commons, vote on any future deployment of troops in conflicts overseas.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, since the 2003 Iraq conflict there has been a convention to debate military intervention in the House of Commons. This Government have been clear that we will abide by that convention. The Government are currently exploring options for formalising the convention, including the future role of the House of Lords in such matters.

[Lord Grocott]

With respect, my Lords, this question goes to the heart of the issues of the powers of a revised House of Lords and the relationship between the two Houses. I put these simple questions to the Minister: if Members of the Commons were allowed to vote on matters of war and peace and senators in the newly elected senate were not, how on earth would that be explained and justified? If, on the other hand, the Commons and the Lords could both vote on matters of war and peace, what on earth would happen if one voted for war and the other for peace? I put it to the Minister that if the resources of the Deputy Prime Minister cannot even come up with an attempt to answer these fundamental questions about a reformed second Chamber, they should tear up the draft Bill and go back to the drawing board.

[Lord McNally]

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, continues his search for the silver bullet that is going to shoot down Lords reform. The fact is that we are approaching the matter of war powers rather more seriously. Of course there is the matter of the power of the House of Commons, and we are considering carefully how such legislation would be couched. When the reformed House of Lords comes into being, as has been made clear by the Cunningham committee, the conventions between the two Houses will be up for re-examination but the conventions of the two Houses will still be in place. The Government have made it quite clear that it will be the House of Lords—sorry, the House of Commons, that will have the—[Laughter.] War powers are a rather serious matter. If the noble Lord would address it as such, instead of as one of his regular “catch them” questions, we could well debate it.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, my noble friend is mistaken in thinking that this is a flippant approach simply because it comes from somebody with a known record of trying to sabotage reform. Surely reform is intended to be democratic and representative. This House will not be representative unless it can represent those who elect it in all respects. This is the most important respect that is likely to come before this House. How can it be justified as a democratic reform if the House is to be silenced on this matter? If it is not to be silenced on the matter, the problem posed by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, persists. Deadlock between the Houses would not only lead to uncertainty in the future but sap the morale of those who were eventually engaged in any conflict.

[Lord McNally]

My noble friend’s last point is exactly why the Government are being very careful in thinking about just how these matters should be put into law and how Parliament should discuss them. However, the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, is dealt with by the CRAG Act. Treaties will be debated in both Houses and can be voted on by both Houses, but the CRAG Act makes it quite clear that the view of the House of Commons would prevail in such matters. That is one precedent that we could look at but, as I say, let us wait.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, if a future election to the other place were to result in no party being able to form a Government, alone or in coalition, do the coalition Government’s proposals for abolition of your Lordships’ House offer a constitutional impediment to the leader of the party that enjoys the confidence of the elected second Chamber being invited to form a Government?

[Lord McNally]

Absolutely and clearly—again, the conventions are clear. The statement in the White Paper is quite clear. It is the person and party who command the confidence of the House of Commons that will form a Government in any future circumstances. That will remain.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, the Minister has cast aspersions on the seriousness of my noble friend’s Question. I am not alone in your Lordships’ House in believing that the Government should have looked at this matter first, rather than produce a Bill to change things with a plus ça change attitude towards the future role of this House or an elected second Chamber. Why will the Government not go away and do their job properly? Before the noble Lord attacks me, I am one of the Members in favour of reform. However, I do not want it done back to front, with the Government unravelling the system and then discovering that they have to work out how it will work in the future. That is the wrong way round.

[Lord McNally]

That is precisely why the proposals put forward by my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister are the most thorough, the most consulted on and the most open proposals for reform of this House that have ever gone before Parliament. Again, I draw the attention of the House to the fact that war powers—and the right of Parliament to debate them—are a very serious matter, for which the Government have promised to bring forward proposals. Again, I put forward the very clear statement in the White Paper: the conventions and powers of the House of Commons will remain supreme. That would be the case for war powers, as for any others.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, my noble friend will recall that two Joint Committees looked at these issues with great care in the previous Parliament. I served on both of them. The Government of the day then accepted the advice of those committees. Would my noble friend like to speculate on why the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, raises this issue now, rather than exerting his influence in that Government?

[Lord McNally]

No, I prefer to look forward on this matter. We have given the noble Lord, Lord Richard, a task. If the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, wants to write to the noble Lord, Lord Richard, with any doubts or concerns he has about war powers, particularly after the Government have made their statement, so be it. Of course, it is legitimate to address one of the regular Questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, on Lords reform, but I hope that the House will debate the war powers issue with due seriousness when the Government come through with proposals. There are a lot of examples around the world of parliaments that have taken war powers which have made it virtually impossible for those countries to deploy forces. At the other end of the scale, we have the example of Iraq, when Parliament felt that it had not been fully consulted. The Government are looking at this very carefully and seriously and will bring forward proposals in due course.