Drax Biomass Power Station

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As somebody famous once remarked, recollection of facts may vary. Forgive me if I do not necessarily take as absolute fact the statements of some Canadian environmentalists. Officials have looked into it. Ofgem is investigating whether the biomass is sustainable or not. Let us wait for the outcome of that investigation.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend said in his original Answer that it was matter for the regulator. Are the Government wholly satisfied with the way regulation is working at the moment, with questions around the regulator Ofgem? Who regulates the regulators?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord was probably in the other place when the regulations and laws for Ofgem were passed. It is an independent regulator; that is the whole principle of it. Until I see any evidence that it is not carrying out its job satisfactorily, I will continue to have confidence in it.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 15th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords, I am happy to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, and I agree with both his points. I have the strong impression, having read through the list of titles, that the great bulk of the legislation to be eradicated, listed on the 57 pages of the new schedule, is in fact defunct and can perfectly reasonably be removed. That is the impression that I get—but that is from reading the titles. I cannot remember the details even of the particular pieces of law that I was involved in drafting, and there are a few of them here. We have a duty to establish a sensible procedure. It could be that there are unintended consequences. I strongly support Amendment 1, the government amendment, but a necessary corollary to that amendment is that we must pass Amendments 2 and 4.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I very much welcome the changes that the Government have brought forward, but I also think that the amendment moved by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, is one that the Government should very seriously consider, and I shall support it later on this evening—and I shall support it for a simple reason. The question as to whether or not we leave the European Union has been settled. I was on a different side to my noble friend Lord Hamilton—I believed that we should remain in—but I accept that that debate has gone and that I lost it. We now have to move on, and we must find a way in which to give the House of Commons and the House of Lords a say over the legislation that is going to replace it.

The sad story of this Bill so far is that we were told that there were 3,000 pieces of legislation, then it was 4,000 pieces—and we now have 900 pieces that can be got rid of very quickly. One thing that is changing dramatically is how a lot of detailed changes have to be made at pace, and it is not always going to be the case that there will be time for primary legislation going through both Houses of Parliament. That is why we need to adapt ourselves to a very different mode of doing regulations. Some of the regulations are technical and the House will not necessarily want to take a particular view but, when they are of a more practical nature, I think that there should be a Joint Committee of both Houses that says to the Government: “Hold on, let’s discuss this”. That is what happened when we had the initial withdrawal Bill and, in a way, the proposals that have been put forward today are mirror images of those particular ways forward.

The changes that the Minister has brought forward, which are very welcome, came very late in the day, and nobody really knew what was happening until late last week—and we are debating them here this afternoon. So I very much hope that the amendment proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, will give the Government time to reflect and see that they have nothing to fear from a Joint Committee of both Houses looking at these matters. After all, if the Government have a majority, it will probably have one on that committee as well—and that is a sensible way forward, giving that parliamentary accountability that we all wish to see.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I would like to focus my probing on Amendment 1—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I would like to offer a brief comment on Amendment 76 in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead. Like many Members of your Lordships’ House, I find the way in which we deal with the increasing amount of secondary legislation fundamentally unsatisfactory. I pay tribute to the work done by my noble friends Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Blencathra and their respective committees last year, and to the important debate held in your Lordships’ House.

We should move towards re-examining how we handle secondary legislation going forward. However, I do not think that the right way forward is to produce one amendment in one Bill and try to say that it answers the problem. I have the greatest respect for the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, because of his tremendous experience in the other place. But let us not pretend it is easy to find a good solution that will work with both Houses and produce the right degree of additional scrutiny without completely holding up the Government’s secondary legislation programme.

We should take time—I hope the Government will find time—to work between both Houses to find good, practical solutions going forward, but we should not legislate in haste in this Bill. We have secondary legislation procedures that have served us pretty well for a long time. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, referred to needing to deal with flaws in secondary legislation. They can already be dealt with; they do not need any special apparatus to do so. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, referred to the procedure whereby statutory instruments are withdrawn when flaws are pointed out. That is a part of our existing procedure, and it works perfectly well. Let us not pretend it is so broken that we have to invent a special procedure for the Bill.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, my name appears on Amendments 15 and 76, spoken to by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. Following what my noble friend Lady Noakes has just said, I say: if not now, when?

It is clear from this debate so far that we sometimes feel that somehow all this European legislation was forced on us and we never wanted it. The simple fact is that we would have had to legislate for a lot of it ourselves. Actually, what happened was that sometimes it was gold-plated—not by Europe but by us. One thing we must be careful not to see happen now is future regulations coming forward and being gold-plated without Ministers necessarily realising what has possibly happened.

I have been fortunate in serving as a Secretary of State. I must admit: I cannot say that, when officials came to me and said that we would take something through on delegated powers, I said, “Well, I must really examine every last word of that particular piece of legislation”.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

Shame!

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

Yes, of course, shame—absolutely a shame. I completely accept what my noble friend is saying. It is a shame and a disgrace, but sometimes you get such a number of regulations coming forward that you might just let them believe what you are saying because you know you are not going to have to defend it in Parliament. That is something that I think my noble friend Lord Hamilton said a few moments ago. It will make a Government more responsive if they feel they have to defend it on the Floor of either the House of Commons or your Lordships’ House.

That is why we have had several debates, including, as my noble friend Lady Noakes said, the earlier debate as a result of the Delegated Powers Committee—which I now chair following my noble friend Lord Blencathra—and the committee chaired by my noble friend Lord Hodgson. It is a way to make sure that the Government are more accountable to the elected House as well as to your Lordships’ House, where we can also sometimes ask, “Has A or B been thought of?”. That is very much why I hope the Government will consider this in due course. As I said, the overall changes made to the Bill already are very welcome, but the number of changes, and the speed with which they have been made, makes us question, rightly, how well thought out the Bill was in the first instance.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin. His historical point is completely correct: the period of maximum EU legislation was during the delivery of the single market programme, which was based on the Cockfield White Paper and the agreement between Prime Minister Thatcher and President Delors. That legislation came through mainly in the early 1990s, and some of it is in the schedule—it has probably been overtaken by something else. It is simply not true that it was all imposed on us.

I support Amendment 76, which is essential. I can explain my reasoning by reminding the House of what Clause 16 says. It is a bit presidential; one might almost say “dictatorial”. Clause 16(2) says:

“A relevant national authority may by regulations revoke any secondary retained EU law and replace it with such provision as the relevant national authority considers to be appropriate and to achieve the same or similar objectives”.


In the phrase “considers to be appropriate”, “appropriate” is a very presidential word rather than a parliamentary word. Okay, there is still the saving caveat that it has

“to achieve the same or similar objectives”,

but here comes Clause 16(3), which uses almost exactly the same wording:

“A relevant national authority may by regulations revoke any secondary retained EU law and make such alternative provision as the relevant national authority considers appropriate”.


Here there is no saving caveat about achieving the same or similar objectives, so under Clause 16 the Executive may, by regulations, do whatever they well choose. That seems to me to make it absolutely essential to have the parliamentary scrutiny for Clauses 13, 14 and 16 that would be delivered by the amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope.

Energy Bill [HL]

Lord McLoughlin Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 28th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to the amendments standing in the name of my noble friend, which address recommendations made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee on the Energy Bill. We are grateful to the committee for its detailed scrutiny of the provisions in the Bill. The committee provided a range of comments and recommendations which the Government have carefully considered. The Minister was pleased to confirm in his response to the committee that the Government have accepted nine recommendations. He also provided further clarification, as requested, in response to the majority of the committee’s other comments. These amendments address the recommendations the Government have accepted, and I hope they will be welcomed by noble Lords.

Turning first to Amendments 22, 34, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 55, 64, 76, 77, 92, 93, 99 to 103, 105 and 106, the committee highlighted that certain clauses of the Bill confer powers to make provision for the imposition of civil penalties without mandating a requirement for the regulations to provide for a right of appeal. While it was absolutely the Government’s intention that regulations under such clauses would provide for a right to appeal, we have taken on board the committee’s comments.

These amendments clarify this point and ensure that regulations made under these clauses, which make provision for a civil or financial penalty, must also include provision for a right of appeal to a court or tribunal against the imposition of such a penalty. The committee’s recommendations referred to three specific instances in the Bill. To ensure consistency across the Bill, we have tabled similar amendments to a number of other clauses which make provision for a civil or financial penalty.

Amendments 73, 80 to 90, 96, 107 to 123 and 139 to 142 address the committee’s recommendations relating to changing the procedure to which regulations made under powers in the Bill are subject. The Government agree with the committee on the importance of parliamentary scrutiny. As such, we have tabled amendments to address the committee’s recommendations relating to changing the parliamentary procedure. These amendments will facilitate detailed scrutiny of the powers, when used.

Amendment 91 responds to the committee’s recommendation regarding subsections (3) and (4) of Clause 180, on heat network zoning. The committee had concerns that these provisions would confer powers allowing non-statutory documents to make requirements in relation to the methodology for identifying areas as potential heat network zones. We welcome the committee’s comments, and this amendment will ensure that any non-statutory documents do not have legislative effect. The amendment omits from Clause 180 subsection (3), which provides for the heat network zones authority to publish documents elaborating on one or more aspects of the zoning methodology. It also omits from the same clause subsection (4), which provides that regulations may require the authority and zone co-ordinators to comply with any requirements set out in these documents.

I reiterate my thanks to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee for its engagement and reports on the Bill, and I hope its members will be pleased with the amendments discussed today. I beg to move Amendment 22.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, on behalf of the committee, I thank the Government for responding favourably to the report. I hope this is something that other departments will follow through in their subsequent considerations.

[Lord Lennie (Lab)]

My Lords, as we have heard, these amendments relate to ensuring that regulations which make provision for a civil penalty must include the provision of a right of appeal to a court or tribunal against the imposition of such a penalty in a number of instances in the Bill, as recommended by the DPRRC. It is good news that the Government have accepted these recommendations. These amendments have been tabled to make changes to the procedure of regulations under several powers, as recommended by the committee, and to clarify that non-statutory documents do not have legislative effect in relation to heat network zoning methodology. We support these amendments.