Covid-19 Lockdown: Fixed Penalty Notices
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(2 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)
My Lords, I am not sure how far it lies within the power of central government to make the orders for which the noble Earl calls. I will, if he wishes, correspond with him on just what the Government can do to prevent people being coerced into going into work against their will.
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is making a virtual contribution.
Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]
My Lords, the data in the National Police Chiefs’ Council report on fixed penalty notices issued in England and Wales shows the different approach to FPNs taken by forces. For example, Wiltshire and Gloucestershire issued less than half the number that Sussex and Norfolk issued. Will the reasons for those different rates be looked at, especially if persuasion was a more successful approach than penalties, so that lessons can be learned for the future?
Stalking Protection Orders
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(2 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)
I am very grateful to my noble friend for the question. In part, I refer her to the answer I gave to the previous question. The situation is that there is a degree of independence for individual chief constables to prioritise matters within their own jurisdictions, if I may use that expression. We are seeking to emphasise the real importance of this particular area of law and the real harm inflicted upon victims of stalking, so that it percolates down from the chiefs to the foot soldiers.
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, I invite the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, to make a virtual contribution.
Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]
My Lords, the Suzy Lamplugh Trust reports that it repeatedly sees police officers trying to apply for other protections, such as non-molestation orders, instead of stalking protection orders. Given that half of stalking cases are not from domestic abuse settings, if you are being stalked by a stranger or a work colleague—not an ex-partner—non-molestation orders would be of no use. What will the Government do to change this? Otherwise, non-domestic stalking cases will continue to be ignored.
Crown Courts: Outstanding Cases
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(3 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)
My Lords, I do not accept the adjectival premises on which the noble Lord’s questions were based. I refer to my earlier answers about the spending that has been identified in relation to these matters.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked, and we now move to the fourth Oral Question.
Rape: Prosecutions and Convictions
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(4 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Keen of Elie (Con) [V]
My Lords, the issue of engaging with juries about how they arrived at their verdicts is complex and difficult. To set a precedent there would be a material step. However, we recognise that it is necessary to address some of the ingrained misconceptions that still exist and persist around reporting these offences. We hope that, by doing that, we will improve outcomes overall.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
I call the noble Lord, Lord Judd. Lord Judd? I suggest we go on to the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, and then come back, if there is time.
Baroness Cox (CB) [V]
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I have had the painful privilege of becoming friends with young women who suffered such atrocities, including Caitlin Spencer, a pseudonym, whose story is published in the must-read book, Please, Let Me Go? She describes how, from the age of 14, she was groomed, raped, sexually exploited and trafficked around the country by gangs of men. She still sees her abusers driving their taxis with impunity, and many other victims still see perpetrators living freely and intimidating them. What more will the Government do to bring these perpetrators to justice?
Lord Keen of Elie (Con) [V]
My Lords, I am not certain that such data is available, but I will make inquiries to see whether it is or whether it can be collected, in a reasonable fashion. I will advise the noble and learned Lord upon the outcome of that inquiry.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.
Covid-19: Prisons and Offender Rehabilitation
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(4 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Hastings of Scarisbrick (CB)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord German, for giving us this opportunity—
Lord Hastings of Scarisbrick
I certainly will, as best I can. I refer to the letter sent to every prisoner by Phil Copple, director-general of prisons, at the beginning of the lockdown. It said that they needed to have forbearance, patience, self-control, restraint and tolerance. He assured them that the Prison Service would look after them with humanity and due dignity.
I made an inquiry of a number of people I know inside the Prison Service to ask how their experience was. I will quote just three. First, this is from a prisoner in Surrey:
“I have been treated poorly throughout the period of the lockdown. I have been provided with no updates as to what the lockdown means other than to remain in my cell until further notice. I have been provided with very limited telephone usage, limited sanitation and no means to cope with prolonged confinement e.g. education.”
This is from another prisoner in Kent:
“No communication or update whatsoever with what’s going on both in/outside of jail. Having 1 hot meal a day at lunchtime and getting a baguette … by 4pm … Basically being told to put up and shut up! I’ve not been seen by no member of healthcare concerning”
well-known mental health issues, skin allergies and other physical needs—no medical support of any nature.
This is a final one from a prisoner in Hampshire:
“People with mental health issues are being neglected and deteriorating because of long periods of confinement to cells with no regime.”
This is a massive failure of human dignity, abruptly disregarded. I urge the Minister to respond with dignity.
The Senior Deputy Speaker
Lord Balfe? If not, I call the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)
My Lords, we have been told that life in Britain will be different once the Covid-19 emergency is over. I hope that one change will be in the approach that we adopt towards Britain’s prisons and the men and women who are held there.
The Prison Service has struggled to contain overcrowding for at least the last 50 years. Measures to reduce the prison population have been discussed continuously during that time. Governments have sometimes expressed themselves as being in favour, but far too little has been done to bring that about. The Crime, Justice and Protecting the Public White Paper in 1990, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, will remember, described prisons as an,
“expensive way of making bad people worse.”
Noble Lords will rightly recoil from the idea of executive release to cancel the effect of a sentence lawfully imposed by the court. However, we now have a situation when a prison sentence carries with it a real risk to the life of a prisoner or of prison staff because of the conditions inside the jails, in half of which the coronavirus is present.
There has always been a time when prisoners have died in prison—for some time now, there have been over 300 prisoner deaths a year, a third of them by their own hand—but we have to go back to the time of the great 18th-century prison reformer John Howard, after whom the Howard League is named and who was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, to find dangers similar to those that we have today because of Covid-19.
In preparing for this debate, I spoke to someone who works at Her Majesty’s Prison Hewell in Worcestershire, described last year by HMIP as “squalid, demeaning and depressing”. As far as spreading the coronavirus is concerned, he said that the prison was as dangerous as a cruise ship—worse in many ways, as the cells are smaller than a typical ship’s cabin.
As so many other countries have decided, and as many of your Lordships have said in this debate, the release of prisoners has now become a matter not just of compassion and humanity but of practical necessity to save lives.
The Senior Deputy Speaker
I call the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, who I believe has now unmuted his microphone.
Lord Keen of Elie
I will do so in about a minute, if I may.
The noble Lord, Lord Marks, asked about prisoners being outside cells. Clearly, we must maintain social distancing at present.
The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, whom I welcome to his new position on the Opposition Front Bench, mentioned officers worrying about taking the coronavirus home. I understand their concerns. I join the noble Lord in congratulating Center Parcs on the position it adopted with regard to that matter. Clearly, it will be of considerable assistance. However, I do not recognise his reference to the removal of prisoners to care homes. I am not aware of that occurring, but I will inquire further.
On that point, let me say that we are carrying out all the steps that we consider appropriate, as advised by Public Health England. We are developing robust contingency plans and relying on an enormously dedicated group of staff to maintain the prison estate. We are, of course, concerned with the welfare of prisoners and shall continue to be.
I thank noble Lords for their contributions.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, the Virtual Proceedings will now adjourn until 6 pm for the Government Statement.
Sentencing (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Bill [HL]
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(5 years, 4 months ago)
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The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, before we start today’s proceedings on the Sentencing (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Bill, it may be helpful if I say a few words about the procedure that we will follow. In nearly all respects, our proceedings will be identical to those of a Grand Committee. Any Member of the House may attend and speak. Members should stand when speaking. Members may speak more than once to each amendment or Motion and I will ask the Committee to stand part each clause.
The main difference from Grand Committee is that the Committee may vote on amendments and the question that clauses stand part of the Bill. If, when I collect voices, it is clear that there is no agreement, I will call a Division, which will take place straightaway. Only Members of the Committee may vote. The clerk will call out each name in alphabetical order and Members should reply “Content”, “Not content” or “Abstain”. I will then announce the result and call the next amendment or Motion. It may be for the convenience of the Committee if certain sequential amendments are taken en bloc, but if any Member objects they must be moved separately to the extent desired.
Do any Members wish to declare any interests that have not already been declared? If not, finally, I remind the Committee that we are sitting in public and being recorded.
Clause 1: Consolidation of sentencing legislation: amendment of law for old offences
Amendment 1
Parliament: Freedom of Speech and the Rule of Law
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(5 years, 6 months ago)
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The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, for initiating such an interesting debate and the Minister, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie, for agreeing to share the task of winding up today. It is unusual for two Members to respond to a debate—but this is an unusual subject area, where both the Government and the House have responsibility. As chairman of the Procedure Committee, I will set out the deliberations of our recent meeting where this matter was discussed in response to a written request from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown. I invited the noble and learned Lord to give an oral representation to the committee, and he asked us to consider four options.
The first was that the Companion to the Standing Orders should stress the importance of Members complying with court orders and injunctions—final and interim—rather than deliberately disobeying them under parliamentary privilege. The second was that consideration should be given to extending the sub judice resolution to encompass all, or almost all, proceedings in the House. At present, Members are exempted from the resolution during legislative proceedings where a ministerial decision is in question, or where the Lord Speaker believes that the court case in question concerns,
“issues of national importance such as the economy, public order or the essential services”.
The third was that thought should be given to whether “egregious abuse of privilege” should in future become sanctionable in some way. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, suggested that such behaviour might be deemed a contempt of the House, sanctionable by a requirement to apologise publicly and/or to pay a fine, or perhaps an explicit breach of the Code of Conduct. Finally, it was suggested that consideration should be given to whether the Lord Speaker might be empowered to require a Member who breaches, or is about to breach, the sub judice rule, and presumably any rule on injunctions, to desist.
In considering these options the committee was mindful that in 2011-12 the Joint Committee on Privacy and Injunctions was established to inquire into this issue in depth. That Joint Committee considered some of the suggestions now being made by the noble and learned Lord: namely, whether it would be desirable for the Houses to pass a new resolution on injunctions or to adapt the sub judice resolution. While the Joint Committee saw some advantages in this course of action, it also saw significant practical difficulties with enforcing it, particularly in the Lords. It concluded, in paragraph 231 of its report:
“If the revelation of injuncted information becomes more commonplace … we recommend that the Procedure Committees in each House should examine the proposals made to us for new restrictions with a view to implementing them”.
The comments of the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, on proportionality come into focus here.
The revelation of injuncted information has not become more commonplace in this House since the Joint Committee reported. In fact, we are aware of only one such revelation in this House since then—the case of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, which has been discussed today. At our meeting earlier this month, the Procedure Committee noted that there is no evidence that this is a growing problem. Further, members of the committee expressed strong support for the Joint Committee’s conclusion that freedom of speech in Parliament is “a fundamental constitutional principle” and that:
“The threshold for restricting what members can say during parliamentary proceedings should be high”.
Like the Joint Committee, the Procedure Committee decided that that threshold had not yet been crossed.
Having said that, we are mindful of the need for Members to use their freedoms responsibly, as the Lord Speaker set out in his Written Statement a few days after the noble Lord, Lord Hain, named Sir Philip Green. To this end, the committee agreed with the first proposal of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, that the Companion to the Standing Orders should include some new text exhorting Members to respect court orders and to use parliamentary privilege responsibly. The committee agreed to look at a revised text for the Companion at our next meeting.
The suggestion by the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that Members should be reminded of the importance of using parliamentary privilege as part of the new Member induction programme, is a good one. The committee will shortly be publishing a new edition of the short guide to procedure, which will be given to all Members, current and new, as part of the induction package, and this paragraph will be included in that.
I hope that today’s debate will help raise the profile of this issue among Members of the House. I hope that each of us will reflect on how we use our freedoms responsibly. I give a commitment to the House to convey the comments made by Members here to the next meeting of the Procedure Committee—so it will be on the agenda. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions, especially the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown.
Scotland Bill
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(8 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)
My Lords, even if one were dozing during this debate, there would be no doubt how the House felt on the issue. I note the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, that the debate on the Barnett formula is lost. We must realise that situation. I shared a flat near Joel Barnett for many years. Joel never tired of telling me that the Barnett formula was introduced in 1978 to settle a relatively minor dispute in devolution so that he would get “them” off his back. He used a profane word that I will not use in this House. However, since 1978 that formula has stuck.
When I was in the other place, the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, manfully defended the Treasury but still was very generous with the Barnett formula. The noble Lords, Lord Lang and Lord Forsyth, as Secretaries of State for Scotland, skilfully manoeuvred the Barnett formula in Scotland. I had to sit on the Opposition Benches and admire their chutzpah on that particular issue. That is the politics of the situation now. Sadly, in many ways the political bandwagon has moved on but the analytical one is behind it.
At the end of last week, the First Minister said that there was not a penny of detriment to Scotland. She spat that out but every Scottish party in the Scottish Parliament agreed with her. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, mentioned in adulatory terms Professor Jim Gallagher. I looked at Jim Gallagher’s blog at the weekend. I mentioned that every Scottish party was involved but he said that, in the event, with the fiscal framework,
“the politicians have come to a compromise: one suggested first, publicly at least, by the Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson”.
She proposed this, and then the Chancellor, George Osborne, intervened and offered the Scottish Government a safety net for the first five years. That effectively delivers what the SNP Ministers asked for: namely, protection for their tax income in the event that Scottish population declines. That is the reality, so perhaps I am not being ungenerous in saying that maybe the right hand of the Conservative Party does not know what the left hand of the Conservative Party is doing.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Speaking very much for the right hand of the Conservative Party, I think that perhaps the noble Lord did not hear the quote from Jim Gallagher. He said that the compromise the Treasury gave is that it handed over the money. That is what we are talking about: it is not a compromise.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, the noble Lord tells us nothing new. I looked at that issue as well. I think I made the point in the last debate here that the two no-detriment principles are irreconcilable. We must try to work out the politics of that at a later date but there is absolutely no doubt of that. Professor David Bell in his submission and the work he did for the Economic Affairs Committee illustrated that very much. In fact, I sat for about three hours looking at that report from the IMF with David Bell and I thought I was back at university. After those three hours, I understood maybe 15% of the whole issue. It is hugely complex—we all agree on that.
I mentioned the issue of the safety net. This is a good deal from Her Majesty’s Treasury but after the five years there will be the review. What will the Treasury do at that time? That will depend on how the population looks then and what other political and economic factors are going on. I agree with individuals who say that this is a five-year or six-year proposal. At the end of the day, negotiations must start again. One thing I am interested in here is to see that we develop a narrative as a result of this fiscal framework which will ensure that the grievance mentality is abandoned. Some would say it will not be but there is a possibility of that happening. I will mention that later on in my speech.
For clarity’s sake, we see that the Scottish Parliament is supported by, as we said, shared UK resources from Barnett, its own tax revenues levied in Scotland, and a cash supplement from UK resources. That could possibly force all the parties in Scotland to go into what they are offering the Scottish electorate in terms of tax and spend. We have seen it already; today I read it in the Scotsman as I was coming down in the plane. For the first time, in many ways, we are getting on to the reality of devolution and have moved on from the process. Sadly, the Labour Party was very much involved there because it was mentioned that devolution was a process rather than an event. That got it wrong. As my old friend Tam Dalyell said, it was like a motorway without exits. Let us try to build the exits as a result of this fiscal framework.
We can go on indefinitely in asking who won the fiscal framework battle. Yes, the Treasury model is being used. We call it levels reduction. Yes, the UK is reimbursing Scotland for any money it would have received under the indexed per capita deduction in place. In effect, one side is happy saying, “The Treasury model is being used”. The other side is happy saying, “Yes, it is being used but we ain’t going to be disadvantaged because at the end of the day the per capita will be involved”. How far has that taken us? It has taken us five years down the road in terms of politics. We will have to come back and see how far it takes us down the road in terms of finance.
There is a big picture here as well, which nobody has mentioned. This will be the biggest ever transfer of powers to the Scottish Parliament. In fact, it will have as much autonomy as it had in 1707. It has demanded both good will and compromise to reach that position.
On that particular point, I commend the Government for their work in this area. However, in terms of the reporting of the fiscal framework, it could be helpful if the Government teased this issue out. The fiscal framework states that the Government will be required to produce reports on the implementation and operation of new powers in line with those produced under the Scotland Act 2010. Will this be done on an annual basis? If not, when will such reports be published? If we are to have an independent review, it should be set up very quickly and should not wait until the last minute, as we had to do with the fiscal framework now, where eight weeks of Smith translated itself into a secret cabal deciding it and then presenting it to us. We should have that transparency so that that independent commission can report to Parliament on an annual basis. By doing so, there will be transparency and individuals can look at it from the two no-detriment principles—particularly the second, of fairness to UK taxpayers.
This is a solution. Is it a neat solution? We can argue about that until the end of the day but there is a political momentum on this issue with the political parties in Scotland. The Government have responded to that. We wish them well in the negotiations.
Lord Higgins
I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. We have had an extremely interesting debate on various aspects of the fiscal framework, but that is not actually what the amendment is crucially about: it is whether or not each House of Parliament should have an opportunity to approve it. That is what we are voting on. Despite all the technical discussion and so on which has been admirably set out and considered, the crucial issue is that the other place must have an opportunity to debate this. It would be absurd if the whole thing goes through without the House of Commons having debated it at all.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, I take the noble Lord’s point on that but right at the beginning of my speech I made reference to all political parties in Scotland and to the leader of the Conservative Party in Scotland, whose idea this was, which was adopted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, according to Professor Jim Gallagher. Some people are waiting to say that the unelected House of Lords is stopping a Bill which is in Scotland’s interests. So do we go with the intellectual case, which always appeals to me, or do we understand the politics in Scotland at this time? If we have a gap in this fiscal framework where this House can understand what is happening on a year-by-year basis, we should give the Government the benefit of the doubt on that issue because the political force is with all political parties in Scotland. I commend my speech on that point.
Lord Dunlop
I am coming to that point. The idea that it would be easy or straightforward to replace the Barnett formula with a needs-based one—or seek to do so—does not stand up to scrutiny. I have read, with great interest, the report of the House of Lords committee on the Barnett formula, published in 2009. John Swinney, now Deputy First Minister of Scotland, gave evidence to that committee’s review and made it absolutely clear that he did not support the move to a needs-based formula. There has been lots of talk about a veto. Another way of putting that is that if you do not have a veto then the UK Government unilaterally imposes something on Scotland. In that situation, we would have to proceed as we have done in this fiscal framework agreement—by negotiation and agreement.
The no-detriment principles have been raised several times in this debate. I have talked directly to people who sat on the Smith commission including the noble Lord, Lord Smith, himself. The commission recognised that these were high-level principles. It was always accepted that the two Governments would have to sit down and decide how those principles were applied in practice. It is not surprising that there is a greater level of detail and a lot of talk about the direct effects, which we want to capture mechanically in the agreement. However, the indirect, spillover effects are very difficult to capture, because of the causality. It is the direct effects which we are seeking to capture in this agreement. Although there is a backstop power to deal with the spillover effects, it will be used rarely. One needs to draw a distinction between the review, where we need to proceed and get an agreement, and the dispute resolution mechanism, which is very much attached to specific issues regarding how spillover effects actually work.
I turn to the review itself. It is obvious and self-evident that this is five years away. The details of the review have still to be determined. I am not going to stand here today and say otherwise, because noble Lords would not accept it. The Government would positively welcome the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee feeding in its views about how the review should be structured. That would inform the deliberations we will have with the Scottish Government about constructing that review.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
Will the Minister take up the point I made earlier about an annual report on this issue to both Houses, and the Scottish Parliament, so that we get transparency and accountability?
Lord Dunlop
I am very happy to make that commitment. The Government intend to make an annual report to Parliament that will cover how the powers under the Smith agreement are being implemented in practice. That is fundamental to our approach. Regarding the review, I can confirm what has already been confirmed: there is no default position for it. All the evidence that will be built up over the succeeding five years will be on the basis of the Government’s comparable model.
I turn to the prospects of reaching an agreement. This review will be informed by an independent report. We will have had five years of experience of how these powers operate. Instead of seeking to negotiate in the months leading up to an election, this will be a negotiation after an election. Those conditions lead me to believe that an agreement can be reached.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I wanted to delete this clause entirely in Committee, and was persuaded that the approach being taken by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, was perhaps more forensic and justified. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, that half a loaf is better than no loaf. This is a very useful example, both in the original draft and the slightly grudging response from the Government, which we can discuss when we come to debate the Strathclyde review and the Government’s attitude towards the use of secondary legislation.
Our previous debate, when we spent 10 minutes arguing whether the House of Commons ought to be able to discuss the fiscal framework, to my mind underlined an Executive who are increasingly treating Parliament as the ornamental part of the constitution. That is very regrettable.
I thank my noble friend for at least moving as far as he has, but I would not want him to think that the Bill as it stands is in any way acceptable. I hope that on a future occasion we will have more opportunity to discuss the increasing use of secondary legislation. If it is not a Henry VIII clause, perhaps it is now a Queen Anne clause, in deference to the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, who thinks that this is putting the Scottish Parliament in the same position as it was in 1707.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
Yet again, the noble Lord has got it wrong—it was me who said that. However, let us finish on a positive note tonight. First, I would like to thank the Delegated Powers Committee for its report, because it was very clear at the beginning that the Scotland Office provided a delegated powers memorandum, the explanation of which was inadequate. As a result of that, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for tabling these amendments, and the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, who made an excellent speech last time on the Henry VIII powers.
The Law Society of Scotland was mentioned, and Michael Clancy has been sitting in the box for many weeks, although he is not there tonight. He has been helping us—and I well remember taking over the shadow Home Affairs responsibility in the 1990s for the Labour Party, when Michael was helping one and all political parties. So I thank him, too.
As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said, it is better to have half a loaf than none. It is important to say that the Government have not outlined totally why the consequential powers are required in Parts 1, 4, 5 and 6, in every other respect. Perhaps the Minister will at this stage give your Lordships’ House some indication of the type of saving powers that the Government expect to propose. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said in Committee, if we are going to keep faith with what we are trying to achieve, the Government have to go that step further. With those comments, I commend the work that noble Lords have done and the response that the Government have given to the suggestions.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)
I am obliged to your Lordships and particularly grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, for his contributions on this matter. As will be appreciated, the powers in question can be used only in consequence of provisions in the Bill. The power to make consequential, transitional and saving provisions of this type are not exceptional or unusual in primary legislation of this ilk. Indeed, Section 105, together with Section 113, of the Scotland Act 1998 provided a similar power. The Scotland Act 2012 also contained consequential powers.
When consequential amendments were identified as necessary during the course of preparation of the Bill, they have been included in the Bill. For instance, Clause 10 makes provision in consequence of the clauses relating to elections. However, given the nature of the Bill, involving significant devolution of legislative and executive powers, it is difficult to anticipate the full extent of the consequential changes required when the provisions are commenced to put them on the face of the Bill. Therefore, it is possible that, following Royal Assent, legislation may be needed to amend and deal with the consequent provisions of the Act. In those circumstances, the Government considered it both necessary and appropriate to include this provision in the Bill.
However, following the views of the Regulatory Reform and Delegated Powers Committee, and those expressed in this House in Committee, we have brought forward an amendment to Clause 68. The effect of the amendment is that the power to amend future enactments, future prerogative instruments, any other future instruments or documents and Welsh and Northern Irish legislation, whenever made, will apply only to Part 3 of the Bill, the only part of the Bill dealing with welfare provisions. Amendments 62A, 62C, 65A and 65B limit the scope of the consequential, transitional and saving power as it applies to Parts 1, 4, 5 and 6 of the Bill. I hope that reassures noble Lords on the proper scope of these provisions.
Amendment 71A provides that Clauses 3 to 12 do not commence automatically two months after Royal Assent, but instead come into force on such a day as the Secretary of State may appoint by regulations. We have identified some consequential and savings provisions that may be required, and they require careful co-ordination with commencement of Clauses 3 to 12. They are largely concerned with electoral law. Commencement by regulations will facilitate such co-ordination. We do not expect to delay commencement for too long after the Scottish parliamentary elections have taken place in May 2016. In these circumstances, I invite noble Lords not to move their amendments and to accept the Government’s amendments.
Scotland Bill
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(8 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Mackay of Clashfern
My Lords, I am glad that these amendments have been made. Of course, I understand that they will require approval by the House of Commons in due course.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, we agree with the Government on this very sensible measure. We appreciate the minor and technical amendments and fully agree with them. We thank the Minister.
Lord Keen of Elie
I am obliged to noble and learned Lords for their contributions.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I believe that it is right that we should adjourn the House, with the agreement of the House, until 7.40 pm.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, I think we should just keep going since we are in the swing.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
With the agreement of the House, let us move on to the next amendment.
Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)
My Lords, I endorse the comments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and my noble friend Lord MacKenzie. I also pay tribute to the work of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, on that over the years, and to the local knowledge—the boyhood experience—of my noble friend Lord MacKenzie of Culkein on that.
I remember that at the time of the Scottish referendum there was an interview with a farmer from Shetland. The BBC interviewer asked him if he liked Westminster, to which the answer was, “No, I’ve not much time for Westminster”. He was then asked, “What about Edinburgh?”. He said, “Oh, we hate them. Our wrath is reserved for Edinburgh”. Therefore that makes a point on that quite eloquently, although in common language. It is no surprise that we support the principles behind these amendments and sincerely hope that the Scottish Government are listening. In fact, in the 2014 Scottish Labour Devolution Commission we were very clear that:
“Devolution is not just about powers for the Scottish Parliament. It is about the distribution of powers within Scotland to bring them closer to people”.
If I have any quibble about what has happened in Scotland, it is that we have provided devolution to Edinburgh but we ain’t done very much to disseminate that devolution outwith Edinburgh. Therefore it is time that we did this, and this is quite a timely amendment on that.
In the 1990s, when I was on the Opposition Front Bench for the Labour Party, one of my responsibilities was the Highlands and Islands. I developed a great affection for the isles and for the communities in that area. The point that was made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and others, is that these communities are very fragile, and the support we need to give them is essential if we are to generate that community spirit.
In the Labour Party devolution commission that I mentioned we also made reference to local authorities, which,
“should have increased scope to influence economic development”.
When I was an MP along the Corridor I chaired a commission on the closure of the J&B bottling plant in Dumbarton, in my area. I did not want it to be exclusively local authority but wanted it to be public/private. I chaired the task force, and eventually it developed into what was called Lomondgate. Now, 15 years later, it has the BBC and Aggreko, which is a small generator company that was started in Dumbarton, but which is now a FTSE 100 company. We did that with local people and local involvement. I used to say to people in Scottish Enterprise in Glasgow that they did not understand my area even though it was 20 miles away. Therefore that need for that economic development and the need to have those powers in those hands is extremely important. Not only have I been a proponent of that but I have been a practitioner and have seen its success. Therefore with that spirit in mind I support these amendments so that we give the power to the communities and give the support to the Western Isles and others. If there is a lesson and a message here tonight, it is that the Scottish Government must deliver on their promises.
Finally, can the Minister clarify a point that was raised in Committee and which was also raised with him in writing, regarding the timescale of the transfer process of the Scottish Crown Estate to the Scottish Parliament? At the time, the Minister was unable to answer when or how long he anticipated the transfer scheme would take. Perhaps he has an update for the House today. At the very least, I hope he will be able to say when the detailed discussions which he referred to in the correspondence to us are likely to commence. With that in mind, I am delighted to support the principles of these amendments and I look forward to a positive response from the Minister.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, the noble Lords, Lord MacKenzie and Lord McFall, and the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, for their contributions. Let me begin by saying that I understand and sympathise with the intention of this amendment and with the island authorities. I also commend the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and my noble friend Lord Dundee, who have shown such resolute commitment to this important issue.
As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, has said already, I had the opportunity to meet the island authorities and other stakeholders. I found it an enlightening and informative experience to talk through this issue with them. I hope that I have further opportunities to meet them, and I certainly encourage others to do so. When he and I met the representatives of the Western Isles Council recently, it was clear how much appetite they had for the management responsibilities of the Crown Estate to be devolved with as little delay as possible. However, the Smith commission agreement was absolutely clear that:
“Responsibility for the management of the Crown Estate’s economic assets in Scotland, and the revenue generated from these assets, will be transferred to the Scottish Parliament … Following this transfer, responsibility for the management of those assets will be further devolved to local authority areas”,
such as Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles or other areas that seek such responsibilities. The Smith commission chose these words with good reason. I believe that the devolution of management responsibilities will be quicker, simpler and come with fewer practical difficulties if the UK Government devolve these responsibilities in a single transfer to Scottish Ministers. A consultation can then take place in Scotland to determine the best way to further devolve these assets. I stress that the UK Government’s view is that this should be a consultation about how, not whether, the management of those assets will be further devolved to the island councils.
I note that the Scottish Government are never shy of saying how they will hold the UK Government’s feet to the fire on how they live up to the commitments under the Smith agreement. I assure noble Lords that the UK Government will take every opportunity to press Scottish government Ministers to deliver on the commitments made by the SNP as part of the Smith process. I was glad to note, and to hear the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, repeat today, that the island councils met the Scottish Government on Monday and that some progress, although not complete progress, was made in those talks.
However, the Government do not believe it would be in keeping with the principle or spirit of devolution for the UK Government to determine how the management of the Crown Estate in Scotland should be further devolved. But I take this opportunity to assure noble Lords that the UK Government take this issue seriously. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury, who has policy responsibility for the Crown Estate, will make a Written Ministerial Statement to Parliament six months after the transfer of Crown Estate assets. This statement will outline the progress that the Scottish Government have made on the onward devolution of these assets. This is a new commitment which the Government are prepared to make, having been persuaded by the arguments in this House and having met and listened to the group Our Islands Our Future and other passionate voices. I hope that this commitment gives noble Lords comfort. As I have said, we will continue to press the Scottish Government to deliver what was promised to the island communities and other communities in the Smith agreement. I have no reason to suspect that the Scottish Government will not deliver the onward devolution of these assets.
The noble Lord, Lord McFall, asked about timing. Conversations between officials are ongoing, and it is envisaged that Ministers of the UK and Scottish Governments will commence further detailed discussions after the Scottish Parliament elections about the precise timing.
In conclusion, I reiterate that although I respect and understand the intention of this amendment, the Government cannot support it. I ask the noble and learned Lord to withdraw this amendment.
Scotland Bill
Lord McFall of Alcluith Excerpts(8 years, 9 months ago)
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“( ) provisions in relation to candidates at an election for membership of the Scottish Parliament or a local government election in Scotland.”
Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, for speaking to the amendments. We are generally supportive of a number of them but, as my noble friend Lord McAvoy said earlier, the Labour Party’s aim is to ensure that the Bill gets on the statute book. It is with that realistic element in mind that we debate these issues. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, shakes his head, but he has been shaking his head all night—and for years—on this issue. It is important that we are constructive. I am proud that we have been constructive on this side in helping the Bill to become an Act, therefore ensuring that the relationship between the Scottish Parliament and the UK Parliament gets off on the best foot. I am sure that government Ministers will be on the same level as us on that sentiment.
We support Amendment 29, tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, my noble and learned friend Lord Davidson and my noble friend Lord McAvoy. The amendment would give the Scottish Parliament legislative competence for equality of opportunity relating to the Scottish functions of Scottish and cross-border public authorities, including non-executive appointments to public boards. It also clarifies that the Scottish Parliament’s power to modify the Equality Act 2010 is limited to making provision that enhances the protection and promotion of equal opportunities. Our Amendment 30 would amend Amendment 29 and give the Scottish Parliament the ability to set quotas for candidates at Scottish parliamentary and local elections. I also speak in support of Amendments 31 and 33, which we have co-signed with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, and the noble Lord, Lord Stephen.
I start by addressing Amendments 29, 31 and 33, which have been drafted by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. First, we place on record our thanks to the EHRC for its work and its continued support throughout the passage of the Bill. Taken together, these amendments have a significant impact on the Scottish Government’s ability to tackle inequality. As the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, has just said, the amendments will give the Scottish Parliament legislative competence in respect of equality of opportunity in Scottish and cross-border public authorities, including non-executive appointments to public boards. They clarify that changes to the Equality Act can only enhance the protection and promotion of equal opportunities, which at present is insufficiently clear.
They also ensure that the Scottish Parliament is not limited in its capacity to act in relation to non-executive appointments to public boards. Finally, they give the Scottish Parliament legislative competence over the public sector equality duty. The Minister stated in Committee that,
“devolving the duty itself is a step too far”. —[Official Report, 19/1/15; col. 674.]
However, he seemed to be arguing that this was more for bureaucratic reasons than anything else. If that is the case, I submit that the Government should look carefully at these amendments to see what can be done.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
The noble Lord is making a case for these amendments but, as I understand the Labour Party’s position, it is committed to ensuring that no amendments are made to the Bill. So why are we sitting here at 10.06 pm listening to advocacy for amendments which his party is determined should not actually get on to the statute book?
Lord McFall of Alcluith
Actually, I remember, at the beginning of the day, the noble Lord being very robust about Clause 1 and threatening to bring the house down; then he did not press his amendment. Why is he so vigorous at one stage and then so weak and wobbly-kneed? He should stay by his conviction and put the vote to the House, so that he can find out what their measure is. What is sauce for the goose— I will let him finish it.
The Minister mentioned in Committee that devolving the competence to the public sector itself would be a step too far. The Government should look at these amendments to see what can be done. We would like to think that the measured reason we have at this Dispatch Box could influence the Minister before the end of the day. That is why we are standing here, doing our public duty after 10 pm, and I am sure that I will get acclamation from all sides of the House for that.
I agree with the Minister that we must be cautious about creating excessive burdens on private and voluntary groups. I urge the Government not to simply dismiss the idea out of hand. There will clearly be challenges—we accept that—but these have to be weighed against the outcome of fundamentally altering our society’s approach to equality. Our Amendment 30, which takes the somewhat unusual step of amending an amendment, increases the scope of Amendment 29. As I have made clear, we support Amendment 29, but we believe it could go further. Indeed, it needs to go further to ensure that the Scottish Parliament reflects the society it represents.
Amendments 31 and 34 would require political parties to publish diversity information in relation to Scottish elections. Of course, transparency is important and we expect the Minister to agree with us in mentioning the initiative when it comes to pay. However, from experience we are aware that, despite this action, the problem remains a negative feature of our culture and society. Indeed, when it comes to pay, at the current rate of progress it will take nearly half a century for women to be paid the same as men. This demonstrates that we need to go further than Her Majesty’s Government are apparently prepared to go. The Scotland Bill provides a vehicle to do just that.
More can be done to promote gender equality in politics. In fact, the intent of Amendment 30 is to give the Scottish Parliament the ability to set quotas for candidates at Scottish parliamentary and local elections. Under the leadership of Kezia Dugdale, Labour has made substantial progress on this issue. Research from Women 50:50, which I thank for its continued support and guidance, revealed that 52% of the constituency Labour candidates and 50% of the Labour list candidates in the upcoming elections are women, compared with just 15% and 14% respectively for the Conservatives. So a determined and committed leadership shows what can be achieved by introducing candidate quotas. I hope that we can make this the norm across Scotland. It is an extension of the principles of the Smith commission since Smith advocated that the Scottish Parliament should have more autonomy over equality provisions in society. If they are good enough for the public bodies in Scotland, it is surely illogical to argue that we would not want the same for the Government who represent Scotland. Indeed, as Women 50:50 says:
“We need a fair number of women in parliament so that women’s lived experiences exist in policy-making. The system and the policies it creates disadvantage women if there are not enough women round the table to actually represent their views. It is crucial to democracy and to women across Scotland to be represented fully”.
This amendment, combined with amendments already referred to, would help to continue to challenge this fundamental disparity which we have in our political structures. With these amendments we invite Scottish society to play its part in bringing about the more equal, fair and inclusive society that everyone wishes for Scotland. We should hold our elected representatives to those same high standards. In accepting these amendments, the Government would bring about such parity. I hope that, even at this late hour, debating these issues can stimulate the Government to think differently and perhaps result in a changed outcome before we next meet next week. With that, I beg to move.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
I thank noble Lords who have spoken—the noble Lords, Lord Stephen and Lord McFall. These provisions and amendments were also debated in Committee. The Government are committed to safeguarding equality, tackling discrimination where it arises and promoting transparency. However, that is, of course, not to say that initiatives and protections in addition to those offered by the Equality Act do not have a part to play, as the Smith commission saw.
The purpose of Clause 35 is to devolve greater equal opportunities powers to the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament can introduce new equality protections and requirements on Scottish public authorities and cross-border authorities exercising devolved functions, provided these do not conflict with or change the existing provisions of the Equality Act 2010.
The Scottish Parliament can, however, amend the 2010 Act in regard to appointments to the boards of Scottish public authorities by, for example, enabling the imposition of quotas on grounds of gender or other protected characteristics, but this does not apply to cross-border bodies.
In delivering Smith, the equal opportunities clauses strike the right balance between the need to confer greater competence on the Scottish Parliament for safeguarding and promoting equalities in public bodies—a key concern of the Scottish Government—and the importance of preserving a GB-wide legal framework.
The Government’s interpretation of paragraph 60 of the commission report ensures that we continue to reserve the subject matter of the 2010 Act, while providing the Scottish Parliament with the ability to legislate for specific provisions such as gender quotas in line with the Smith agreement. Through the general exception we are providing, the Scottish Parliament will be able only to supplement the 2010 Act. The Scottish Parliament will not be able to subtract any protections but will instead be limited to increasing and promoting protections.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Geddes) (Con)
My Lords, this is a slight technicality but we are in fact discussing Amendment 30 and not Amendment 29. The noble Lord, Lord McFall, may wish to press or withdraw his amendment.
Lord Dunlop
My Lords, I am pleased to move Amendment 35 and to speak to Amendments 36 to 40. In Committee in the other place, the Labour Party brought forward an amendment on responsible parking which was also raised in Committee in this House. At that stage, I committed to updating the House on Report. I am therefore pleased to bring forward Amendments 36 and 37 to the Bill to address this long- standing issue.
These amendments seek to address an issue that is of interest to many people in Scotland: the irresponsible parking of motor vehicles. This issue has particular impact on people with disabilities, parents with pushchairs and the elderly, especially when vehicles have been badly parked on pavements. A number of attempts have been made to bring forward legislation in the Scottish Parliament to regulate this area, but they have failed due to questions of that Parliament’s legal competence in this area. As the debate on this issue in Committee on 19 January demonstrated, there is widespread confusion as to why the Scottish Parliament cannot regulate in this area when it otherwise has the competence to deal with much transport-related policy.
The Secretary of State for Scotland has been committed to seeking a solution to this constitutional question for some time and, as I told this House on 19 January, UK and Scottish Government officials have been discussing the detail of how this can be achieved. We have been mindful of the need to take on the Scottish Government’s views to ensure that the way forward is workable and appropriate. As a consequence of those discussions we have tabled these amendments, which will clear up the constitutional questions on this matter. These amendments will make it clear that the Scottish Parliament has the powers to regulate the parking of vehicles. Amendments 36 and 37 amend the Bill to except the subject matter of the Road Traffic Act that relates to the parking of vehicles on roads from the roads reservation. Consequently, the Scottish Parliament will have the power to regulate the parking of vehicles but driving remains reserved.
For what appears a relatively straightforward policy aim, I am aware that there have been a number of complex considerations. To that end, I am grateful to the officials in both the Scottish Government and this Government for their contribution and input. It is possible that a small number of minor and technical amendments may need to be made at Third Reading to ensure that any associated executive functions are transferred to the Scottish Ministers. This is being explored by officials. Nevertheless, today’s amendments have addressed the key issue at stake.
The amendments make it clear that the Scottish Parliament has the competence to bring forward legislation to regulate parking in Scotland. I believe that this move will be welcomed by people across Scotland who wish to see the Scottish Parliament take steps to address inconsiderate and irresponsible parking. I beg to move.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
My Lords, I very much welcome the government amendments on pavement parking. As the Minister just said, the amendments to Clauses 38 and 41 and to Schedule 2 relate to road provisions. They alter the timing of when regulations come into force to give vehicles used for various purposes connected with devolved matters exemptions from both speed limits and certain road signs, and remove references to exemptions from speed limits for vehicles used in connection with reserved matters.
The Government have finally tabled amendments relating to parking on pavements, an issue which we raised in Committee. We support these amendments, in particular Amendments 37 and 38, which reflect those we tabled in the other place and in your Lordships’ House in Committee. We are obliged to the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Ministers for their work on this matter. We also thank the Secretary of State for graciously noting that this initiative was started by Mark Lazarowicz, former Member of Parliament for Edinburgh North and Leith.
Although we are very grateful that the Government have moved these amendments, we understand that there may be some outstanding amendments to be tabled at a later stage, and I would be grateful if the Minister outlined that in more detail. We also put on record our thanks to both Living Streets and Guide Dogs Scotland for their support and briefing on this matter. They made it very clear to us why these amendments were needed. Pavement parking can be and is dangerous for pedestrians, especially people with sight loss, parents with pushchairs, wheelchair users and other disabled people. Those with sight loss are particularly affected, as they can be forced into oncoming traffic which they cannot see.
One of my close boyhood friends has become blind in the past seven or eight years. He has shown me the dangers of parked cars at a very practical level and the limitations he has. One of his pleasures now—a simple one—is leaving his house and going down to the British Legion club for his lunch. However, there are certain days, particularly on weekends, when he cannot move and is on his own, simply because of the cars that are parked there. The quality of one’s life is very much affected by that. I know, from my own family having a disabled child, the impediments there are to living a life like ordinary people if there is this lack of consideration with parking. This measure is not before time.
On the issue of blind people and people with sight loss being forced into oncoming traffic, a survey by Guide Dogs showed that 90% of blind or partially sighted people encounter problems with street obstructions and 90% of those had experienced trouble with cars parked on pavements. Everyone should know that pavements are not designed to take the weight of vehicles, which can cause paving to crack and the tarmac to subside—and cracked and subsiding pavements are a further danger to blind people walking on them. It causes trip hazards for pedestrians and has a particular impact on blind and partially sighted people. The cost of repairing pavements is a burden for local authorities.
In the light of the previous remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, this is a great example of the Government and Opposition working together, taking up issues in Committee, the Government going back, engaging in further consultation and, without a vote or any chagrin, agreeing amendments which are for the better for society, particularly people who are disadvantaged. I congratulate the Secretary of State and Ministers on listening to us on this issue.