Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (Search, Seizure and Detention of Property: Code of Practice) (Northern Ireland) Order 2024

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Hay of Ballyore

Monday 2nd December 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, I, too, will welcome the Minister’s reply. I regard him, as I have done for many years, as a friend; I am delighted, therefore, that he is here answering our questions. May I make a statement? First, it is so important to put anything that makes life more difficult for criminals on the statute book because no one should benefit from criminality, irrespective of where they may come from.

The truth is that criminals always seem to be ahead of the game and Governments always seem to be catching up. No matter how far you go, criminals’ skills and craft to carry on their criminal activity seem without bounds. Therefore, we have to do all we can to ensure that their programme is impeded.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, said that the code is not as yet drawn up, but I noticed that paragraph 5.7 of the Explanatory Memorandum says, “The codes require”. If they are not drawn up, how can they require? It says:

“The codes require an officer who is contemplating using the powers to consider the impact on the community in their use, balanced against the public interest and the benefit the use of the powers would add to the case”.


My noble friend Lord Morrow, mentioned that point. This is what concerns me because, as my noble friend pointed out, we had this scourge in the past: if it somehow impacted on a particular community, you did not act. People were therefore not only surprised by the authorities’ inactivity but annoyed because it seemed that they could act if it was a different community but, in a certain community, they did not. I want the Minister to assure me that, when it comes to this statutory instrument, no officer will be compelled

“to consider the impact on the community in their use, balanced against the public interest”,

because criminals do not care who they impact on. Therefore, we have to ensure that their programme is impeded and that the proceeds of their crime are taken.

Paragraph 6.1 of the EM says:

“POCA provides powers to recover the proceeds of crime”.


Can the Minister clarify where the proceeds of crime go when they are seized? Who benefits from the proceeds that are seized? Knowing exactly where the proceeds go is important.

The last thing I want to draw attention to is paragraph 7.2, which says:

“On the codes generally, law enforcement agencies’ responses requested clarification of certain definitions in the legislation and additional guidance on the practical operation of the powers to seize cryptoassets and related items”.


I would like the Minister to clarify whether these clarifications on the definitions were requested by the people who responded. Has proper clarification of certain definitions in the legislation and guidance been given?

Finally, it is right to say that the resource implication is so important, because we know that we do not have sufficient officers to carry out policing on the ground in Northern Ireland. We are well below the target that was said to be necessary to police Northern Ireland. I do not want resources to be taken from that and put into this; rather, money needs to be given to ensure that we have the proper agency to tackle those who carry on with criminal activity.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

My Lords, I want briefly to bring noble Lords back to the whole issue of resources. I welcome this statutory instrument but I worry about resources. You will continue to hear the chief constable of Northern Ireland talk about the lack of resources. With these new powers, there certainly need to be additional resources.

As a former Minister in Northern Ireland, the Minister will be aware that these criminal gangs sometimes work fairly freely, not only in Northern Ireland but across the border. These criminal gangs will have all the resources they need to do what they are doing. Unfortunately, the different agencies that have to deal with them do not have the resources to do what they need to do. That is more of a worry than anything else. I keep coming back to the chief constable: most times when he is interviewed, he says, “No, I don’t have the resources within policing to do what needs to be done”.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Hay of Ballyore

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, Northern Ireland has nearly 500 councillors, 18 MPs, 90 MLAs and Members of the House of Lords. We would need another tier of advisers. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord said about knowing how the forum would operate because it has operated in the past. However, I suggest to noble Lords that we did not know how members were appointed because the same grouping of people seems to be appointed to whatever body is going to be thought of next. It never widens out to Johnny Citizen; it seems to be that same stratum of people.

At a time when we have no money for health, education, agriculture or roads—they are nothing but potholes; we cannot get tar and we cannot get them properly looked after—we would like to expend more money on having people travelling around the countryside on an extra body. I suggest to the Minister that now is not the time to be spending more money on another tier. Spending money on many of the things that the people of Northern Ireland are crying out for, whether that be education, health, agriculture or the environment, would be a better use of public finance.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

My Lords, the Civic Forum may certainly have been a good idea 20 years ago, but I am not too sure that it would work in today’s politics. I remember the forum. In fact, on occasions it was in opposition to much of the work that the Assembly was doing at the time.

I am not too sure that it worked that well 20 years ago. I am not sure it represented all shades of opinion out there, and there were issues around some of the people who were appointed and how they were appointed. It goes along with the serving and all of that. Now it would be wrong to add a further layer of government in Northern Ireland, with everything else that is going on.

We can argue whether or not the Civic Forum did a good job while it was there, but when I look back those 20 years, I am not too sure that it exactly helped politics in Northern Ireland or helped the Assembly to move on, because, as I have said, on fairly major issues it was almost in opposition to the Assembly and the work that it was doing then, during a very difficult period. I am not too sure that a civic forum would work in the present-day politics of Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Hay of Ballyore

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 19th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

My Lords, I welcome the debate in Committee this afternoon. I wonder, as I listen to some—not all—of the speeches whether this is all about having a go at the Democratic Unionist Party, or perhaps because there is a local government election on the horizon. I say that very clearly. I wonder whether, in trying to resolve a serious situation, this is about politics more than anything else. At the outset, I thank the Minister for the many meetings we have had with him on this complex situation, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said.

The Minister will be aware of our deep concerns over the lack of proper scrutiny of these proposals; we have made him aware of that on several occasions. I said in the House last week that if people entered the RHI scheme in good faith and feel that they are now being treated unfairly, it is certainly not the fault of the people who entered the scheme. But, of course, we know that this situation has resulted from a decision by the European Commission on state aid rules; it is very clear on this. Maybe the Minister could clarify that the Commission has indicated that it is not in a position to approve a tariff that delivers a rate of return of higher than 12%. Can the Minister confirm that this is a way of putting this scheme on a strong legal footing? There are legal issues with this scheme. Certainly, the failure to go down the road of looking at a scheme with a rate higher than 12% would make the scheme illegal. That is an interesting point, which I would like the Minister to clarify as well.

I am certainly led to believe that the failure to agree this scheme would mean that payments would not be made to anybody, and the closure of the scheme. These issues deeply concern us, and certainly concern many of the people who bought into the scheme and who now feel very aggrieved—I can understand all that. However, the Minister tells us that if we do not go down this road of agreeing this scheme, there is no scheme, and if we agree the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, it will make the scheme illegal. All these issues need to be clarified by the Minister.

I welcome the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee’s inquiry into the scheme; it will be interesting to see where it sits on this issue. I welcome the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who has undertaken to consider carefully any recommendations regarding the scheme from the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. However, once again, we are told that this scheme must be approved by 1 April, because if it is not, nobody will be paid and there will be no scheme. There is therefore a conundrum here for all of us as we try to find a way through this difficult issue. When you are told about that information, and all that comes together, it is a conundrum. It is either this scheme or no scheme, and it is important that the Minister clarifies all those positions and issues when he winds up.

We are all getting emails and letters from individuals about the scheme and how they entered it, and so on. Will the Minister also undertake that he will investigate the cases of individuals who came to him directly, or who come to us and we pass on to him? That might help us to resolve some of these problems, because people are sending everyone emails—I think we have all received a number of them—but it is difficult to guide them to where they should go for further investigation. If the Minister could say that he and his department will take that on, it might be a way to get people who have deep concerns about the scheme to where they need to go for full investigation.

With the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee’s investigation going on as well, my problem is that if we wait until the committee’s report is published, it will be too late. The scheme must be operational by 1 April or no one will be paid and the scheme will be gone.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

Surely the Minister needs to clarify. Can he not find a legal way to keep the tariffs as they are until the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee has concluded its deliberations? It is difficult: this axe will fall because the date of 1 April has been set. Surely the Minister can find another way to fulfil his obligations to Europe but allow the present situation to continue until a proper investigation is concluded into this matter.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore]

I was coming to that point. I know that the Minister is around this brief—he is around every brief, but this one in particular—because we have had so many meetings with him. I think my noble friend Lord McCrea is saying: yes, he can still do what needs to be done, but is there any way legally that might help us to move all this on? The issue is ensuring that whatever is done from here on is legal. Let us try to take the politics out of this, because this is too serious a situation to involve politics. Let us take the politics out of it, deal with this serious situation and try to find a way forward.