Windsor Framework (Democratic Scrutiny) Regulations 2023

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Hain

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Jay, at the commencement of the debate, said that a majority in Northern Ireland supports the Windsor Framework. But I respectfully say to him that his comments display a lack of knowledge of the Belfast agreement, because majority rule is no longer the foundation of the political settlement in Northern Ireland; instead, cross-community support is demanded, and, in the past, I believed that this House strenuously supported that.

The noble Lord, Lord Hain, told us that a lot of the detail in the SI is unclear. But it seems that we are asked, as a House, just to let it pass through, even though it is unclear and imperfect. In fact, I have not heard one Member of this House who has spoken already suggest that either the SI or the Windsor Framework is a perfect document—but it is good enough for Northern Ireland.

The noble Lord, Lord Hain, went further, saying that the Northern Ireland protocol—the original protocol—had a glaring democratic deficit. But that is not how it was sold when it came to this House before. In fact, the SDLP, the Alliance Party and Sinn Féin said that it was to be rigorously implemented, with no changes and no negotiation. Yet it has now been acknowledged by His Majesty’s Opposition that it has a glaring democratic deficit, even though, in the previous debate, it was sold as the jewel in the crown for Northern Ireland and we should be very honoured to be given the opportunity to embrace it. I believe that certain Members of this House should blush at how they sold and championed the original protocol when it was debated in our House. This debate, like the framework—

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for giving way; I will be brief. I would like to put on record, as I think he knows, that I have consistently said that the democratic deficit should be addressed by giving Northern Ireland Ministers, MLAs and the Assembly as a whole proper accountability for what is going on. The Windsor Framework actually improves that, although I think that there are lots of unanswered questions.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. I must say that that was not how this House sold the original protocol to my colleagues in this House. In fact, we were derided for ever suggesting that we would be opposed to the protocol, even though it is now acknowledged that there is a democratic deficit.

In many ways, this debate, like the framework itself, is something of a sham, because the deed is already done and signed. In fact, we were told that the Government had no intention of heeding any changes that we might decide upon, because, as the Secretary of State said at the weekend, the DUP has

“yet to come to terms with the significance”

of the vote. He added:

“There is no renegotiating of that deal”.


I have heard Members saying that matters should be renegotiated, but the Secretary of State has emphatically stated—as has the Prime Minister—that there will be no renegotiation of the deal. That means that any comments we make at this time in the debate are meaningless, as far as the Government are concerned. I respectfully suggest that seeking to demean the unionist leadership, as the Secretary of State did, does not restore confidence in the good will of this Government, and neither will it assist with the restoration of Stormont. Yes, the vote was taken in the other place, and although your Lordships’ House is supposed to scrutinise legislation and to improve it, if necessary, we were not granted the opportunity to do so.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Hain

Report stage
Wednesday 19th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, I thought it was interesting that in the previous debate Members from all sides stood up to demand that freedom of speech in this House be paramount. With freedom of speech, even though you may disagree profoundly with a person, you respect their right to be able to say things. I have no doubt that I may say some things with which some in this House do not agree; nevertheless, I trust that no one would deny me the right to say them.

Thinking about the present debate, I believed that the legislation before the House was based on implementing a matter under the New Decade, New Approach agreement. Members rightly said that there are those who did not agree with that agreement. I certainly did not agree with the Belfast agreement; I did not agree with the destruction of the gallant RUC or the destruction of the UDR, which followed on, or with letting terrorists out to roam across the countryside, in which I reside, where so many people were murdered that it was known as the “killing fields” of the Province. But they were let out under the Belfast agreement. Nothing could be more repugnant to a democracy than to see terrorists roaming around the countryside, snooting their noses and mocking and laughing at families, like my own and many others, whose loved ones were murdered brutally.

I stood on Sunday at the roadside where eight men were brutally murdered and six others—not soldiers, but ordinary workers returning home from their work at an Army base—were injured. We stood there on the roadside, as we have done for the past 30 years, through rain, hail, snow and blizzard—whatever was thrown at us—to honour the memory of those persons who were done to death.

I do not take richly lectures from people about the election—“If you don’t vote for us, you will get someone else.” I was reared in the west of the Province. No one did that more—they were actually masters of it—than the Ulster Unionists. At every election, the candidate standing for that party did so on the 12 July platform to say, “Vote for me.” Of course, they were quite often not seen after that, but nevertheless they did it. It was clearly an orange and green election. To try to lecture this House and some Members of it about that is rather rich. Other Members who know nothing about Northern Ireland—who perhaps have never been there—would think, listening to this, that what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, was saying is right, not knowing the history of what has gone on down the years.

Of course, the noble Lord is right to talk about messing around with legislation, but let us remember that legislation on abortion was brought before this House. It was tagged on to legislation that had nothing to do with it yet it was forced on the people of Northern Ireland even though the issue was supposed to be a devolved matter. I therefore say to this House that we need to be careful in what we say or when we try to suggest what others are suggesting.

I listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. She gave the impression that, under the Belfast agreement and the former arrangement, everything was sweetness and light. Yet the truth of the matter is this: in reality, it was a stop-start situation. You did not know when it was up; you did not know when it was down. You found out in the end that it was usually down whenever Sinn Féin said that it had to come down.

I also listened to the noble Lord, Lord Hain. Of course, he has gone back to his customary “Beat the DUP” as regards the threats of the DUP, but let me just remind him that, in actual fact, it was not the DUP that brought the Assembly down for three years. It was Sinn Féin and people he knows very well. I did not necessarily hear on those occasions the same ferocity as is now being mentioned with regard to the Democratic Unionist Party. We want devolution. We want to see our Province properly—

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for allowing this brief intervention. I did not beat the DUP. I pointed out something that I thought was wrong about Sinn Féin and the DUP unilaterally breaching the consensus agreement. I have never beaten the DUP; I agreed with it that Ian Paisley Senior became First Minister and negotiated with you all. It is not about beating anybody.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I have to say, this is not the noble Lord’s first occasion but, on previous occasions when he intervened in other debates that I have sat in, once again it was anti- DUP propaganda that was being put out. It was not against Sinn Féin.

As far as the three years are concerned, it seemed that Sinn Féin had to be placated and whatever it asked for had to be done. It gave us three lines in the sand, remember: same-sex marriage, abortion, and the proposed culture and Irish language Bill. I ask Members of this House to tell us this: which of those three things have the Government not done or indicated they are about to do? Yet everything that unionism has asked for has been refused and rejected. I am sad to say that, recently, under the Brexit agreement, we found the border down the Irish Sea and the protocol. We are—indeed, every unionist in the country is— demanding that that protocol be removed, yet we find that, in actual fact, it is not to be removed.

The principle of consent is at the heart of this. I suggest to the House that the proposals that are mentioned in the amendments in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Rogan, do not have the support of, nor command support across, the community.

Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointment Functions) (No. 2) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Hain

Monday 9th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hain]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, with whom I worked very closely in the past as Secretary of State, as he will acknowledge. I understand the specific point he has just made. I was simply making the point that the British Government have to be an honest broker to do this job properly. I would make the same point if it were the UUP or the SDLP—if it had any representation any more—in an alliance with the Government. You cannot be an honest broker if your majority depends on one particular party. That is the point I was making—not an anti-DUP point but one about an honest broker.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown]

I thank the noble Lord for his remarks. However, I cannot see how this House—never mind the Government—was an honest broker when it handed two of Sinn Féin’s major demands to it on a plate to ensure that the doors of Stormont would remain closed until after the deadline in October. These two major social issues were the responsibility of the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland. This was accepted by all, even the courts.

I certainly want to see the return of devolved government in Northern Ireland. However, I ask the Minister to confirm that the appointments to the various bodies being discussed are internal matters for the people of Northern Ireland and the Government of the United Kingdom and that the internal affairs of Northern Ireland are therefore not the responsibility of the Irish Republic. I have no doubt whatever that there should be the closest co-operation between Her Majesty’s Government and the Government of the Irish Republic—I welcome it—but they should not interfere in the internal matters of the people of Northern Ireland.