Windsor Framework (Non-Commercial Movement of Pet Animals) Regulations 2024

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 27th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, I rise to support the regret amendment, moved so ably by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and supported by my noble friend Lord Dodds.

The protocol and the Windsor Framework were built on a false and rotten foundation. The Windsor Framework was sold as a great step forward from the original protocol through which Northern Ireland would enter into the promised land flowing with milk and honey and foreign investors would be so excited by Northern Ireland’s favoured position in the United Kingdom, having access to the single market of the European Union, that they would be camping out and patiently waiting in line to invest in the Province.

Of course, having access to the European single market, we would have to subject ourselves to EU laws over which the elected Members here at Westminster or in the Assembly would have no influence. The concept that 300 areas of EU law should be imposed on Northern Ireland is highly offensive. It recklessly violates our constitutional position in the United Kingdom and dismisses the fundamentals of this heralded Belfast agreement, which demanded that any constitutional issue would have to be decided by a cross-community vote—in other words, by a majority of unionists and nationalists.

The purpose of this instrument is to provide a statutory basis for the Northern Ireland pet travel scheme, which is agreed under that Windsor Framework. According to Defra, the scheme will enable the “smooth and straightforward movement” of pets—pet dogs, including assistant dogs, cats and ferrets—from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, while ensuring that any pet movements from GB into Ireland or any other member state remain subject to the relevant EU law requirement. It has been acknowledged by the department that this is but another example of where a wider consultation would have been desirable. In other words, it did not take place in that wider context.

However, to my mind, deeper consultation would be meaningless whenever we have a Government that have closed their mind as regards the implications of the Windsor Framework. When Europe makes its demands, our Government usually cave in. The United Kingdom Government have got Northern Ireland so entangled with Europe under the protocol and the Windsor Framework that the only way to grant equal constitutional rights to the people of Northern Ireland with the rest of the United Kingdom is, in my opinion, to scrap the protocol and the Windsor Framework.

I listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said about taking the way forward and getting the alternative. But there is a big problem with an alternative because the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, who has spoken, and the noble Baroness who is speaking for the Lib Dems have in fact said that the protocol had to be rigorously implemented. In actual fact the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, said again tonight that she wants the Windsor Framework to be rigorously implemented. Getting an alternative, when there are those who see a need not for change but rather for a rigorous implementation of what is there at present, which is totally unacceptable to many within Northern Ireland as British citizens, is going to be very difficult.

Under these regulations, pets can travel from Northern Ireland to GB and return from GB without needing any pet travel documents and will not be subject to any checks or processes. However, the same does not apply to pets travelling from GB to Northern Ireland. This is another part of the United Kingdom. GB pet owners will need to show that they have a valid pet passport document which applies to the pet that they are travelling with. They will need a valid GB address to obtain a pet travel document and that will be checked during the course of applying for it. Why has this happened? It is simply because the EU has legislated for it to happen within the United Kingdom—a foreign authority legislating what happens between two parts of the same United Kingdom. We have been told constantly that we have left that authority. In fact, listening to the Minister earlier on today we were told that Brexit will not be changed, so therefore we have left.

If persons from GB come to Northern Ireland with their dog and then wish to visit a friend over the border in the Irish Republic, they must subject themselves to a full SPS border check for their pet. Under these regulations, should the EU feel that they are not being implemented to the satisfaction of EU-authorised personnel, their operation can be suspended, or whatever other steps the EU feels appropriate will be taken.

If any animal—pet dogs, including assistance dogs, cats or ferrets—does not meet EU standards regarding documentation or identity checks, the animal can be taken into SPS custody. What impact assessment has been done on the regulations, or is this another example of simply being subservient to EU demands? What detailed consultations were held with guide dog owners? In the other place, the Minister explained the reason for her acceptance of this imposition by Europe and divergence within the United Kingdom:

“We believe in keeping our word and in fulfilling our obligations”.—[Official Report, Commons, Delegated Legislation Committee, 6/11/24; col. 7.]


I ask the Minister: what does she feel about her Government’s obligations to the people of Northern Ireland and respecting the integrity of the United Kingdom? Surely, it is time to take a stand and to reject this Windsor Framework imposition. I, for one, am happy to vote—

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, he referred to the necessity and requirement for cross-community support, and he is absolutely right to highlight that important part of the arrangements in Northern Ireland. Therefore, would he accept that when the noble Lord, Lord Empey, read out various paragraphs of the proposal from Boris Johnson to the European Union at that time, he seemed to overlook and omit a key paragraph of part of that? He has done this on a number of occasions. It is that those proposals could happen only with the full consent of unionists and nationalists, not just in the Northern Ireland Assembly but in the Executive—so both nationalists and unionists would have an absolute lock on whether it happened or not. That is something that, of course, now unionists in Northern Ireland would take your right arm off for.

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[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention and I wholeheartedly agree with him. It is now on the record, and I think it would have been good to read that part into the record as well.

The sad reality is that the goalposts have been moved recently. Because, in the vote taken in the Northern Ireland Assembly, for the first time—50 years—they have now declared there is no need for a cross-community vote. Members in this House have campaigned that this was so essential. The Belfast agreement was quoted by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, tonight. The Belfast agreement.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

Sacrosanct.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

It is sacrosanct; it cannot be changed. Yet the reality is that, for this vote, it is being put into the bin and now it must be a simple majority vote. That is despicable, that is disgraceful and those who support it ought to be ashamed.

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Committee stage
Monday 7th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick. I have just a couple of small points before dealing with some of the wider issues raised by the amendments tabled in this group.

First, on the negotiations, I do not disagree with the involvement of Northern Ireland parties, as I said previously. It was suggested earlier—I think by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, who I regret is not in his place at the moment—that it did not matter what the EU thought as long as the British Government involved the Northern Ireland parties, but we are not talking about consultations; we are talking about negotiations. I think the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, put his finger on it: it is about getting people around the table. If you are going to negotiate, you need the EU and the Irish Government to be on board. The fact is that, regrettably, they have not changed their position from their previous utterances, where they said that this is entirely a matter for the EU, not for regional parties or any individual member state Government; they have said it is for the European Commission, negotiating under the mandate given to it by the Council of Ministers.

My second point is on the issue that the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, raised about the joint First Minister nomination, which was also raised on the previous set of amendments. It should be remembered that the Saint Andrews agreement took place towards the end of the 2000s, in an effort to restore devolution after years in which it had been brought down—again, by Sinn Féin, given the fact that it was out murdering people in the streets, and had not decommissioned its weapons, despite promises that it would do so. There was the famous quote by the late Lord Trimble, who said, “We have jumped, now it is your turn.” Of course, Sinn Féin never did reciprocate. As a result, we had the Northern Bank robbery, and the institutions were down for three or four years. They were eventually restored as the result of Saint Andrews, and that was a cross-community agreement which made the arrangements in relation to the nomination of First and Deputy First Minister. That was the result of a cross-community agreement, so the idea that that is contrary to the principle is simply wrong.

I fully endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, said about her amendment. It is an important amendment which deals with an issue that has caused considerable concern and anxiety in Northern Ireland, which is the fact that thus far the courts have ruled that Northern Ireland’s constitutional position, Article 6 of the Act of Union, has been subjugated by the Northern Ireland protocol. That is a legal ruling. If we are paying such close scrutiny to the legal technicalities, the legal position set out in the Bill and all its intricacies—which is perfectly proper—we cannot then simply dismiss the ruling of the courts in relation to the Act of Union as neither here nor there. This is an important matter for unionists. It is the foundational constitutional document of Northern Ireland’s place within the United Kingdom, so this is no small matter. It is something that is being challenged by unionist political leaders right across the board, and it is therefore important that it is addressed.

That is why the Belfast agreement, as amended by St Andrews, is in some considerable difficulty, because the protocol has this effect on our constitutional position. The fact is that we have another series of amendments, tabled in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady Suttie, about “consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly”, which does not include the cross-community element—the cross-community vote. Again, this says to unionists that, while some are prepared to defend and speak up for the Belfast agreement, and say that this is all about protecting it, when it suits them they just change it. The Belfast agreement provides for votes like this on a cross-community basis, yet time and time again we see things being tabled in this House which undermine the agreement. We are told that we should respect the agreement and its spirit, yet here we have amendments that go against what is in the Belfast agreement—never mind the issues about the east-west relationship and strand three of the agreement, which are trashed by the protocol, and the removal of the democratic consent mechanism for the protocol itself, which means that the Assembly had absolutely no say at all before the protocol was introduced. So we are in a very difficult situation.

There is no doubt that unionists have lost a large degree of confidence in the institutions of the Belfast agreement. On what was agreed in 1998, many of us opposed those elements which released unrepentant murderers back on to the streets of Northern Ireland after serving only two years for some of the most heinous crimes imaginable of murder and depravity—people from both sides of the community were allowed to walk free from jail. The Royal Ulster Constabulary was consigned to history, and there were all sorts of issues about Sinn Féin being admitted into government while the Provisional IRA was still murdering people in the streets, as I said, and were still fully armed. Those of us who opposed these things were told, “You’ve got to accept all these things in the name of peace.” Many people did accept them; there was a referendum, it was passed, and the institutions were set up. But unionists had to accept into government people who parties here in Westminster—and, ironically, the parties Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil in the Irish Republic—would not accept into coalition with them. Northern Ireland is lectured all the time about democracy and accepting Sinn Féin into government—and we have accepted Sinn Féin into government, as per the votes of the people who gave them votes and demanded a coalition arrangement. However, the same people who lecture unionists refuse to have anything to do with them in terms of a coalition in the Irish Republic—and I imagine that neither the Labour Party nor the Conservative Party would admit them into a Government here.

We are seeing that the basis of the settlement in 1998 is now continually undermined. The principle of consent has been breached as a result of this protocol. We now have increasing clamour, including recently from the Irish Taoiseach, about changing the rules of the Belfast agreement and how the Assembly should operate. Indeed, I understand that the Taoiseach went so far as to say that it was a matter for the Irish Government, the British Government and the parties. I am sorry, but strand one is a matter for Northern Ireland parties and the UK Government; it is not a matter for the Irish Government. They are entitled to be involved in strand two and strand three issues, but not the internal government of Northern Ireland. This is causing real concern among unionists. We are in a dangerous situation, and not just because of the protocol but because we are seeing that the Belfast agreement is now going to be completely undermined if some people get their way. Majority rule, which, as we have heard, has not happened and has not been the case in Northern Ireland since the early 1970s, is something which has been railed against for over 100 years. However, as a result of boundary changes and the rest, as soon we have a non-unionist majority in the Assembly—it is not a nationalist majority; unionists are still the biggest designation—and because that now does not suit Sinn Féin, the SDLP or even the Alliance Party, some say, “Let’s change the rules.” If unionists had been suggesting such a thing in the late 1990s, during the 2000s or up until 2019, we would have been howled down as being in breach of the very fundamental principles of the Belfast agreement.

The more talk there is of that; the more talk there is about joint authority in the event of no devolution—something that, again, is entirely contrary to the Belfast agreement—the more talk there is about the protocol being rigorously implemented or not changing the protocol in the way it needs to be changed to get unionist consent; the more we are in danger of seeing the restoration of the Assembly and the institutions of the Belfast agreement receding further and further into the distance. That is the reality. We do not want that to happen. We need to get a grip. The more delay there is, either in negotiations or in the UK Government taking the action needed to restore unionist faith in the political process in Northern Ireland, the longer the institutions will be down. This Government cannot have a situation in which Northern Ireland is left in limbo, where no decisions are taken by anybody, where there are no Ministers and where civil servants do not even have the powers they had the last time. We need Northern Ireland to be governed. The UK Government, who have sovereign responsibility under the Belfast agreement and their constitutional responsibilities, need to take responsibility and act for the good government of Northern Ireland.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, I shall add a few remarks. The constitutional position of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom is a very important issue for many people in Northern Ireland, and certainly for the unionist population. There is no doubt whatever that the protocol is undermining and has undermined Northern Ireland’s position. I believe it is a vehicle to continue to undermine the position of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom. The protocol has brought a profound constitutional change to the very heart of the United Kingdom, because the courts have now ruled that the meaning of the Act of Union, the foundation of the union, has been changed by the protocol, courtesy of it being given direct effect in UK law through the withdrawal agreement Act, with the effect that this subjugates the meaning of Article VI of the Act of Union to the protocol.

I was asked this afternoon how many years I had been in public life in Northern Ireland. It is hard to believe, but in May next year, it will be 50 years: 37 years in the council, 25 years in the other House as a Member of Parliament, 16 years in the Northern Ireland Assembly—and so it goes on. And then in this place here. Now, over the years, I have seen and witnessed, sadly, Northern Ireland’s position being pushed on to the ledge of the union, as it were—pushed to the side. Our position in the United Kingdom has been undermined.

I have to say to your Lordships’ House that the unionist people are very suspicious of both Front Benches, and indeed other parties in this House. When it comes to defending positions, Dublin will defend the nationalist and republican position, but who will defend the unionist position? You would expect the United Kingdom Government to do that, but it is sad to say that successive Governments have not been very good at it. As my noble friend Lord Dodds mentioned a moment ago, certainly strands 2 and 3 give Dublin the right to have a say. But when it comes to strand 1—last week we had the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in conference with the Foreign Minister of the Irish Republic to talk about whether there should be a poll in Northern Ireland and an election for the Northern Ireland Assembly. Those are the internal affairs of Northern Ireland, yet the basis of the Belfast agreement was that Dublin has no right to a say on such matters. That once again makes people suspicious.

General Election Television Debates

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 11th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his support. I am also grateful for the support that has been evident from Members on both sides of the House. Indeed, I have with me letters from the leaders of other parties throughout the United Kingdom defending and supporting our inclusion in the national debates.

Let me make the position of the Democratic Unionist party very clear. We want the national debates to happen and we do not want to intrude or ask to be involved in a national debate involving the national parties. For instance, we are quite happy that there should be a head-to-head debate between the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition or a debate among those parties that are deemed to be national and have sufficient standing to stand in all parts of the United Kingdom. We did not raise any objections to that or ask to be included in that debate. When the broadcasters decided that they would invite the Scottish National party from Scotland and Plaid Cymru from Wales to be involved in the national debate, however, that prompted the question of why they would include a party that stands only in Scotland and a party that stands only in Wales but not the Democratic Unionist party, which has more MPs and more votes than Plaid Cymru and more MPs than the Greens, Plaid and the SNP put together. The whole thing is ludicrous.

We met the BBC at our request after it had proposed its second formulation. As I understand it, the BBC never asked to speak to any of the parties in Northern Ireland. Not only did the BBC not speak to the political parties in Northern Ireland but, as I understand it, the BBC mandarins and fonctionnaires did not even speak to their own journalists in Northern Ireland. I am not sure what happened in other countries or regions of the UK, but they took the decision without consulting the people directly involved in Northern Ireland. I hear them talk about consulting all the parties, but it is clear that they have not fulfilled their obligation, because they have not consulted us, despite our size and contribution and the potential for a hung Parliament on 8 May. These are serious questions, particularly for the BBC, that need to be answered. I reiterate our position: we are concerned with the national debates only because parties from other countries are to be involved but Northern Ireland is to be excluded, and there will be parties in those national debates putting forward candidates in Northern Ireland, and therefore it is prejudicial to Northern Ireland parties, particularly the DUP.

It is sometimes said by the BBC and other broadcasters, “Well, there will be local debates in Northern Ireland among the main parties. That is the opportunity for Northern Ireland politicians and parties to debate in front of the Northern Ireland electorate and set out their policies.” That is all fine and well—we have no objection to debating in that format—but I understand that such debates will also take place in Scotland and Wales. Yes, let us have those debates, but when it comes to the national debates, we cannot have one rule for parties chosen arbitrarily at the whim of unaccountable broadcasters deciding what is best for everyone else and having a different rule for Northern Ireland. That is totally unacceptable.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

Lord Grade is reported as having accused channel bosses of breaking their legal duty of impartiality in threatening to stage the debates without the Prime Minister, but does that duty not also extend to the DUP, which is well represented in this House, given the inclusion of Plaid Cymru and the SNP?

[Mr Dodds]

My hon. Friend raises the important point, which the noble Lord referred to in his article, about the duty of impartiality that is placed on the BBC and to which I think other broadcasters should show due high regard. It remains to be seen what happens. Significantly, in this debate about debates, people have been forthright in saying, “This will happen”, but the reality keeps turning out to be very different. In the first formulation, the broadcasters assured us that there would be three debates with invitations to four parties—the Conservative party, the Labour party, the Lib Dems and UKIP—and that if anyone did not turn up, they would be “empty chaired”, but then of course they changed their minds.

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[Mr Dodds]

That is absolutely right, and I think the BBC will live to regret that arrogance. The way it is treating the political parties of Northern Ireland displays a great level of contempt for the people of Northern Ireland.

I shall start my conclusion as I know other Members want to speak. Where are we at the moment? We are, preposterously, supposed to believe the threat from the broadcasters that they can legally contrive debates during the short general election campaign at which the Prime Minister is not present while many of his political opponents are. Reference has been made to what Lord Grade has said today. Some people may believe that that is possible. Some people in the BBC, including broadcasters, may believe that it is possible, although I should add, in fairness to the BBC’s employees, that I have yet to meet a BBC journalist who believes that it is. It would do the BBC Trust, and indeed Rona Fairhead, some good to listen sometimes to what members of their front-line infantry are saying.

Even now, it is not too late to do what should have been done long ago. A matter of such importance—putting the electoral choices of the British people directly in front of them—should be raised above the level of partisan squabbling or media meddling. Even at this late hour, a Speaker’s conference would start to take us where we need to go, towards the establishment of an independent commission to superintend broadcast election debates. Of course the public want to hear from us, but they must hear from us fairly, without bias and without the blatant incompetence that we have seen here before getting in the way.

Throughout the world, broadcasters work with independent commissions arranging political debates of this kind, and the end result is that in other countries, those debates happen. Here, it seems that the broadcasters know best. They know how to organise the debates, and they go ahead and try to do so on their terms. What has been the end result here? Chaos and confusion—and, eight weeks before the general election, no one has any idea what is happening about any of these debates.

[Dr McCrea]

Lord Grade, whom I mentioned earlier, writes that the BBC and the broadcasters

“are not the guardians of democracy.”

He also writes that they are “unequivocally playing politics.” Surely those are not characteristics of an independent BBC, and surely that means that an independent body to arrange the debates is required.

[Mr Dodds]

Again, my hon. Friend has made an important point. We must remember that we are sent to this House, having been elected by the people, to speak for the people: that is our role. We must take some responsibility, and learn the lessons of this debacle. We need to ensure that the debates happen in future, but on the basis of a model that sets their organisation and formulation aside from broadcasters and politicians.

I want the debates to happen. I sense that many Members on both sides of the House want them to happen, and that many members of the public do as well. The public want to see their politicians in front of them, debating the issues, at the appropriate juncture. The tragedy is that, at present, it is the broadcasters who are getting in the way,

During Northern Ireland questions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) referred to the late Lord Molyneaux of Killead. Let me, as leader of the DUP group at Westminster, add my own tribute. I know that Jim Molyneaux, who was a distinguished and valiant Member of the House for many years, would have relished the excitable mess—as he would have put it—that people have got themselves into. He would have been getting them together and counselling them to sit down and find a way through it, calmly and rationally. He conveyed such a sense of authority that I think he was almost born an elder statesman, rather than growing into the role. He wanted people to engage in politics in sentences and paragraphs rather than in soundbites, and that is what these debates should be about. We should be seeking to place serious, coherent, cogent arguments before the public. That is one of the reasons I believe in a debate. I believe that, sadly, Prime Minister’s Question Time has become largely an exchange of soundbites, all sound and fury and very little elucidation.

National Crime Agency

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Dr McCrea]

I have to say to the hon. Lady that I am still trying to work that out. I listened very carefully to the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), but there is no genuine reason whatsoever that she can give her constituents—she certainly did not give one today—for why she and her party are standing in the way of introducing the NCA in Northern Ireland.

[Mr Dodds]

On that point, was my hon. Friend as disturbed as I was that one of the arguments that the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) seemed to advance was that the NCA, in her view, had not performed as well as it should have and needed to step up to the plate? In fact, one of the reasons it cannot do what it wants to do is that the SDLP will not allow it to operate. It was a bizarre argument and, along with the other stuff about accountability, lays bare the total vacuity of the arguments advanced by the SDLP.

[Dr McCrea]

I agree with my right hon. Friend. In fact, it lays bare the bankruptcy of the SDLP’s argument on the matter. There certainly has to be some other reason—a hidden reason—why it is unwilling to take forward the NCA in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland’s Justice Minister has highlighted that the NCA’s limited powers in Northern Ireland place an extra burden on the PSNI. While the other constituent parts of the United Kingdom—England, Scotland and Wales—have the expertise of the NCA, as a result of the Belfast agreement the people of Northern Ireland are held to ransom, because concessions to nationalists meant that policing was subject to a far higher degree of community oversight and monitoring than in any other part of the United Kingdom. Therefore, in Northern Ireland we are left with a shadow form of the NCA that can carry out only its border and customs functions, but not its other crime-fighting roles.

In her sixth statement to this House on the security situation in Northern Ireland, the Secretary of State said that the terrorist threat in Northern Ireland remains severe, compared with the threat in Great Britain, which is moderate. The Northern Ireland Justice Minister has warned that the PSNI is already facing pressure with the threat from dissident republicans and loyalist street violence and therefore does not need extra burdens placed on it when there is a fully equipped national agency able to deal with those duties.

The inability of the NCA to operate to its full extent in Northern Ireland means that a back door is open to organised criminal gangs in areas of drug enforcement, human trafficking and other forms of serious criminality. However, the nationalist parties in Northern Ireland do not seem to care about the most vulnerable in our society. This House should be aware, however, of the duplicitous nature of the nationalist parties, as this week in the Northern Ireland Assembly they voted for the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Further Provisions and Support for Victims) Bill, introduced by my party colleague Lord Morrow, which would ensure that the perpetrators of the crimes of human trafficking and slavery are caught and appropriately punished for the suffering they have inflicted, yet they carelessly oppose the NCA having the ability to administer those powers. Furthermore, the House should note that a number of years ago the nationalists approved the devolution of justice, with SOCA in place, without any caveats.

Even though there is more accountability in Northern Ireland than in any other region of the United Kingdom, it appears that the nationalist parties simply do not like the NCA, and here is the reason: it is a UK-wide agency and they are on a crusade to block anything that is British and remove it from Northern Ireland. It is high time nationalists and republicans stopped using excuses and faced up to the reality of the world we live in and the necessity of such an agency to keep the people of Northern Ireland—their constituents as well as mine—and particularly the most vulnerable, safe.

Iraq: Coalition Against ISIL

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Friday 26th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

The threat posed by the barbarism, brutality and savagery of ISIL is not merely a threat to the Sunnis, Shi’as, Kurds, Christians and Yazidis of Iraq itself. ISIL poses a clear and present threat to the people of the United Kingdom; it is a clear and present threat to the territorial integrity of Iraq, the Government of whom have asked us to intervene by way of air strikes; and it is a clear and present threat to regional stability, international security and civilisation in general. For those reasons, we are in a different place from where we were a year ago when this House was last asked to consider military action—that time, in Syria—and for those reasons we in the Democratic Unionist party will support military action, unlike last time.

A plea has gone out to the country. The sovereign nation of Iraq faces a perilous time and it has submitted a request for assistance at this crucial juncture, to assist it in protecting its national security, and the security and safety of its people. With our history of fighting for freedom, democracy, justice and human rights, how can we as a nation turn our backs and reject such a plea?

This time, there is no question mark about the legality and validity of intervention in these circumstances, and there is certainly no question mark about the need for immediate intervention. The savagery, sheer brutality and scale of the genocidal wave of terror sweeping the region are truly terrifying; it is a savagery and obscenity that continues to shock even the most hardened commentators and those with great experience of previous conflicts.

In Northern Ireland, we are well used to the impact of terrorism on families and communities; we have seen it first hand and directly. However, this terrorism is on a different scale. It is a mediaeval-type barbarism, which people in the country want a response to.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that any decision to take military action is not one that will be taken lightly by any right hon. or hon. Member of this House, bearing in mind the sacrifice or the dangers facing our servicemen and women, but that we cannot sit idly by and allow a group of Islamic fanatics to terrorise and butcher innocent people in Iraq?

[Mr Dodds]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. Clearly, the dangers are great for our servicemen and women. I pay tribute to them and salute them for their efforts in many conflicts, and again they are being asked to do a job on behalf of the people of this country; the House is coming together to ask them to do that job. We wish them well, and we know that they will display the courage, gallantry and effectiveness that they always display in these situations.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 12th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

Perhaps when he responds the Minister will say not only whether consultation was held, but with whom it was held and what information was given by the individual parties. That would allow us to see whether the results of the consultation are in line with what he proposes today.

[Mr Dodds]

I am sure the Minister will have heard the point that my hon. Friend makes.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Monday 18th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

I do not accept that. I do not accept that we have an excessive use of petitions of concern. I would need to look at all the evidence and, as I have said, 40% of the petitions are put down by nationalists. I do not subscribe to any gridlock being entirely down to these petitions, but the new clause would add to the problems if it were passed. Let us consider the example of welfare reform, which is currently held up in the Assembly. The Minister’s predecessor, the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), who has now moved on, was in Northern Ireland the other day warning about the consequences of welfare reform delays for the block grant. That has nothing to do with petitions of concern; that is a political hold-up because Sinn Fein will not grasp and deal with the issue, and it is going to cost the entire Northern Ireland electorate, ratepayers and taxpayers a lot of money if it does not. So I do not think that petitions of concern are primarily the issue here.

What seems to be at the root of the proposal by the hon. Member for Foyle is that some kind of abuse is happening. He spoke about when petitions of concern should be used and so on, although that is not qualified in the Belfast agreement. What happens when we consider other elements, such as cross-community voting? He has not in any way sought to amend that—indeed, no party has. If proposals were to be made about that, they should be discussed within the Assembly and Executive Review Committee, and the parties in Northern Ireland should come up with their own suggestions, solutions and proposals.

I recall a famous day when I was in the Assembly and those processes of cross-community voting were abused—a horse and carriage was driven through the powers of designation. The Alliance party previously had been designated as “other”—neither Unionist nor nationalist—and has remained “other” for every other vote and occasion since. However, on this occasion it was persuaded to become, in the words of its now leader,

“the back end of a pantomime horse”—

that is how he described it—by designating the party as “Unionist”. Why was that done? It was done to ensure that then deputy leader of the Social Democratic and Labour party, the hon. Gentleman’s party, could remain as Deputy First Minister when he had actually resigned. The proposal was introduced whereby the Assembly had to accept the resignation for it to become valid. There was a total abuse of the rules and of the purposes for which they were introduced. This has never been done since because people were appalled by it, yet reference is never made to it.

[Dr McCrea]

Is it not strange that, yet again, we are hearing from the revisionists? Whenever 40% is republican, we are told, “No, there is no abuse of petitions of concern.” But, then, when the Unionists use 60%, we are told, “Yes, that is abuse.” So, once again, we have, “Unionists at fault. Nationalists and republicans not at all.” My right hon. Friend mentioned that Seamus Mallon resigned and then did not resign. Well, Bobby Ewing came out of the shower and he was dead—and then he was not dead, after all.

[Mr Dodds]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s remarks.

In conclusion, new clause 2 is a misconceived proposal, but I commend amendment 3. It is a technical amendment saying that if we are giving the power to the Northern Ireland Assembly to reduce the number of Members of the Legislative Assembly—as we are proposing to do in this Bill, because that is right and proper, and that should be a matter for the Assembly—the Assembly should also have the power to consider the number of people required for a petition of concern to be valid. For it to remain at 30 would be completely wrong, as that number was regarded as proportionate for 108 MLAs. If the Assembly were reduced to 90 MLAs or fewer, as would be my preference, it would clearly be right, proper and sensible to reduce the number required to sign a petition of concern. Amendment 3 is a technical and sensible amendment, and I hope the Government will take it on board.

Air Passenger Duty

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 23rd October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Dr McCrea]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that helpful intervention.

I thank the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) for acknowledging the problems faced by regional airports—many hon. Members acknowledged that point in the debate. The hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) is right that statistics are worth repetition because they might get through to the Government, who must then answer to them.

The hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) drew attention to the impact of the Irish Government on Northern Ireland. She was exactly right. It has been said that the UK Government cannot do what the Irish Government have done because of the deficit. However, I draw the House’s attention to the fact that the Irish Government have a greater deficit problem than the UK Government. The Irish Government nevertheless believe that removing APD was of greater value economically. The Minister should bear that in mind when he expounds why we should not abolish APD—he should not say that it is because we are dealing with the deficit. As I have told him, the Irish Government have a greater problem, yet they have announced the measure in their budget.

I am happy that the hon. Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) spared us the details of his trip to Amsterdam. Nevertheless, I hope he has learned something from the debate and will change his mind on any decision he makes later.

I share the experience of my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon): a lot of ordinary people come to my constituency office because they have no Sinn Fein representation in the House and we must represent them. That is a disgraceful situation, but it is a fact, and we must accept the reality. The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) gave the House an interesting report of the statement by Mr Hastings. That, too, is worthy of our consideration.

It is clear from the debate that the civil aviation sector is one of the main pillars of economic growth in the UK, driving job creation and growth both at home and overseas, as well as providing air transport for goods and passengers. More than a third of world trade is delivered by air, and about half of international tourism is facilitated by air links. However, as hon. Members commented, UK passengers are taxed more for air travel than passengers anywhere in the world, with APD rates expected to rise again in line with inflation from 1 April 2014.

In March 2013, the UK was ranked by the World Economic Forum as the world’s least-competitive country in terms of taxes and charges levied on air passengers. The TaxPayers Alliance has described APD as

“an unwelcome burden on family holidays, a cost to business and redundant with the EU Emissions Trading System now being applied to aviation”,

and has called for APD to be phased out entirely.

Our vision for a strong and prosperous Britain can be achieved only with healthy and vibrant transport and economic development sectors. Air connectivity is the key to efficient trading and, as the UK economy continues to transform in the face of domestic and global change, it is essential that the aviation industry is given the certainty and incentive necessary to allow it to plan and invest for the long term. Time and again we are presented with the argument that APD has deterred airlines from opening new routes, especially in Northern Ireland, where robust air links are fundamental to underpinning our regional economy, and has compromised the ability of local businesses to attract new foreign direct investment.

The situation is similar in Scotland. Amanda McMillan, managing director of Glasgow airport, has stated:

“Due to the size of the market in Scotland, we will always find it difficult to attain and sustain new routes and this situation is compounded even further by APD which simply serves to artificially depress demand and dissuade airlines from basing aircraft here…Unless APD is reformed, people travelling to and from Scotland…will continue to face some of the highest levels of taxation in Europe which is clearly a disincentive to travel.”

In an evidence session to the Northern Ireland Assembly Finance and Personnel Committee on 18 September, the director of the City of Derry airport, Damien Tierney, described APD as one of the “big factors” influencing airline decision making. Low-cost carriers such as easyJet and Ryanair, which account for most of the Province’s air travel, are particularly influenced by APD.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that APD has long since ceased to be an environmental tax, if it ever was, and is now simply a means of revenue generation for the Government?

[Dr McCrea]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. Throughout the debate, Government Members have acknowledged that APD is a way to deal with the deficit, so my right hon. Friend is spot on in identifying that this is another form of taxation on the people of the United Kingdom.

Belfast International airport has noted in similar terms that APD has been held up as a barrier to airlines that might otherwise have shown interest in operating services in Northern Ireland, thereby limiting market opportunity and creating competitive disadvantage for operators. A 2011 report by PricewaterhouseCoopers, entitled “Helping Economic Take Off”, looked at Northern Ireland’s geographical location, which makes us unique in both a UK and EU context. We are the most westerly part of the European Union and the only region of the UK separated by water, yet we share a land frontier with another member state. We have to travel and we have to trade, and air connectivity is the essential springboard from which future economic growth will be launched. The report, however, found that the continued imposition of APD would serve as a significant deterrent to further investment by existing or new carriers in existing or new air routes.

Much has already been said in today’s debate about the Netherlands experience. The Dutch Government introduced an aviation tax in 2008 for passengers departing from Dutch airports. The Dutch air passenger duty proved controversial from the outset and decreasing passenger numbers, combined with the global economic crisis, led the Dutch Government to subsequently abolish it on 1 January 2010. Belgian plans for a ticket tax were not implemented for similar reasons and a Danish tax was withdrawn due to adverse economic impact. In January 2013, the German Government announced that they would freeze their air passenger tax, while the German Transport Minister has publicly stated that he would like the tax to be abolished completely. Will our Government not listen to what is happening across the rest of Europe? Surely those decisions are being made in the light of economic circumstances.

The decision announced in last week’s budget by the Irish Government—that air travel tax is to be removed from 1 April 2014—has once again thrown APD into sharp focus, particularly its potential impact on the aviation sector in Northern Ireland. Concern has already been expressed by the Consumer Council of Northern Ireland that demand for air services in Northern Ireland could face decline, as people head south of the border to avoid tariffs. As Belfast International airport, in my constituency, has commented:

“Any tax or regulation prevailing in Northern Ireland which makes our gateway less attractive than those across the border is entirely retrograde with regard to economic development”.

As recognised by the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in its two previous reports, Northern Ireland suffers greatly from its shared land mass with the Irish Republic, where the abolition of air travel tax, along with low corporation tax, start-up incentives and marketing funds, will now make it even harder for Northern Ireland to compete for cheaper fares and new route development. Belfast International airport, which lies on the shores of Lough Neagh in my constituency, is the main international port of entry for the province and has proved itself to be an essential component of the local economy and regional growth, as well as being a strategic asset nationally.

In conclusion, I realise that time has run out and I want the Minister to have the opportunity to respond to the debate. I thank every right hon. and hon. Member for participating. I trust that the Government have listened to what has been said and will take away the motion and the thoughts of the House, rather than seek to divide it.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

I want briefly to put on record our view, which we also stated on Second Reading.

We believe that the argument for moving the date of the Assembly election is strong, not least because that is what is happening for Scotland and Wales. There is no logical, coherent reason at all to challenge the Government position—that we should also extend the mandate for the Northern Ireland Assembly by one year, to ensure that a Westminster election and an Assembly election are not held on the same day. That is important because they are probably the two most important elections that are held. Council elections are obviously significant, as are elections to the European Parliament, but when we are electing the legislature and the Executive for the Northern Ireland Assembly and also representatives in this House, it is inevitable that one of those elections would dominate the media and the political debate to the exclusion of the other, to a much greater extent than with other elections. For that reason, clause 7 is important.

[Dr McCrea]

Does my right hon. Friend accept that some issues that are relevant for the people of Northern Ireland can be dealt with only by the Northern Ireland Assembly—as opposed to international issues, for instance—and that a clear division between the two election dates would prevent muddying of the water?

[Mr Dodds]

Yes, I agree with that. The decision was taken for Scotland and Wales when we debated the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, while the position in Northern Ireland was left open to allow for further consultation and discussion with the political parties there. That discussion was held. It was carried out in a very full way—indeed, in many respects there was more consultation and discussion about this issue than many others. A view was reached that is supported by a clear majority among the parties represented in the Assembly, and it is also a cross-community view. Of course, not every party agrees with it, but that is a significant development.

Political Party Funding

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

First, I apologise for not being here for the beginning of the debate to hear the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea), as I was taking part in the debate on the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill. That debate is of considerable interest and importance and, if it were not for that, many hon. Members who are in support of the debate here, and of the view that my hon. Friends have put—hon. Members who have told us so, and who would welcome a debate in the main Chamber, to which we will no doubt shortly be treated—would be here too.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim on securing the debate. I want to make some brief remarks. As has been mentioned, I raised the issue in Westminster Hall on 30 June 2010. The then Deputy Leader of the House, the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath), who, like the current holder of the post, is a member of the Liberal Democrat party—said:

“Over the coming months, Ministers will be talking to all Northern Ireland parties to address how to take the issue forward”—

not “if” or “possibly” but “how” to do so—

“in light of the views and clear issues of principle we discussed today.”—[Official Report, 30 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 253WH.]

To continue the theme that my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) was developing, about there being plenty of commitments, but no action, at business questions on 7 July 2011, the then Leader of the House, who is now the Government Chief Whip, said in response to a question from the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) about the inequitable situation in which there are two classes of Member, that

“the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is having discussions with the parties in Northern Ireland”.

For what purpose was he doing so? It was

“with a view to bringing that unsatisfactory situation”—

so it is acknowledged by the Government that it is unsatisfactory—

“to a satisfactory conclusion.” —[Official Report, 7 July 2011; Vol. 530, c. 1661.]

We very much welcome those commitments. That question followed one that I raised in business questions, and have consistently raised on the Floor of the House.

Government spokespersons have on several occasions said that the matter is being discussed, and that it is hoped that satisfactory solutions will be brought forward. Today we want to highlight the need to get on with it, and bring about some kind of conclusion—now that we are more than halfway through the Parliament—and reach a decision. We heard in the debate in the main Chamber about the need for certainty—drawing lines under issues and moving ahead. We heard a lot of talk about equality and fairness, in relation to Members and the constituencies that they represent. People in all parties are concerned about fairness and equality among Members of the House. Some parties may not be represented here today, but it has been made clear in their discussions with us that they do not accept as proper and fair a situation in which, although they are confined to spending parliamentary allowances on constituency and parliamentary work—as everyone accepts is right and proper—under the representative money arrangement, Sinn Fein can spend that money on party political campaigning and activities, without reprimand or possibility of its being taken away. That immediately puts it at a considerable advantage over other parties.

The advantage is not just over the Democratic Unionist party, or other Unionists. Sinn Fein is also put at a considerable advantage over its nationalist rivals for votes, who take their seats in this House. Its nationalist rivals—who, to be frank, are more likely to garner votes from Sinn Fein than we are—are at a severe disadvantage, because they play by the rules. They come here and have to spend their money, in accordance with the rules of the House, for parliamentary constituency purposes. Sinn Fein Members do not have to take their seats, do the work or come here, yet they can spend their representative money on party political campaigning. There is absolutely no justice in it at all.

[Dr McCrea]

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the Social Democratic and Labour party is indeed at a disadvantage? Although its Members are here in the House representing their constituents, their opponents in Sinn Fein can use the money from Westminster on political propaganda against them. Is it not also true that nobody will be discriminated against if action is taken on the policy of paying allowances? On the contrary, we are asking for equality and balance to be restored.

[Mr Dodds]

I agree, and that absolutely backs up the points that I was making.

Sinn Fein says in a statement published this afternoon that this debate and the efforts of Members from different parties to raise these issues in the House are

“an attempt to disenfranchise our constituents, and it’s unacceptable”.

That is utterly preposterous. No attempt whatever is being made to disfranchise the constituents represented by Sinn Fein; it is Sinn Fein Members who are disfranchising their constituents by not representing them properly in the House to which they were elected. They are the ones who chose not to take their seats.

Sinn Fein Members could take their seats and have access to all parliamentary expenses and allowances on the same basis as everybody else, but they have chosen not to. Ultimately, if they are saying, “We are elected on the basis that we abstain, and on principle we are not going to take our seats,” one would think that the same principle would extend to not taking the money either, but obviously there are limits to principle when it comes to Sinn Fein.

General Matters

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

Yes, and I will come on to that point soon.

In the months and weeks leading up to this year’s parading season, community representatives, clergy and political leaders did a lot of hard work on the ground on many different topics. There were talks, supported and encouraged by local politicians, on parades and protests involving the North and West Belfast Parades Forum and the Crumlin and Ardoyne Residents Association. The Democratic Unionist party, Sinn Fein and others in north Belfast sat down and worked on investment and regeneration plans, and sought resolution to long-standing issues. By making progress across a range of issues, we can create the environment for the resolution of the most difficult problems. I am determined that that should continue.

My hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) just referred to the recent situation having been made worse by the gross mistakes of the Parades Commission. That was the case.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

This point applies not only to north Belfast, but to my constituency of South Antrim, where, once again, the Parades Commission bungled things—but, thankfully, sense prevailed and the Orangemen and women did their best to ensure a very happy day for all.

[Mr Dodds]

I am glad there was such a happy outcome in my hon. Friend’s constituency, and he is right to pay tribute to the people on all sides who worked to bring that about.

There has been a notable lack of support, or even understanding, in both communities in Northern Ireland for the Parades Commission’s mad and bad decision to give a boost to a dissident republican mob intent on violence in the Ardoyne area of my constituency. The chairman is now trying to divert blame by passing the buck to others, which only serves to illustrate how out of touch he and his colleagues are.

We will remain committed to working through these problems. They are isolated and small in number, but they cause great difficulties for my constituents on both sides of the community. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the Government must recognise that the tremendous progress that has been made in Northern Ireland must not give a veto, or allow dissidents who are against everybody who is for peace and political progress in Northern Ireland to hold the rest of society to ransom.

National Referendum on the European Union

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Monday 24th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

I entirely agree, and I think that people in all parts of the United Kingdom who are listening to the debate will be mystified by some of the arguments being put forward, which are completely contrary to their wish simply to have a choice. Regardless of whether people are for or against the EU, they are entitled to have their say.

We have witnessed a breach of trust by the Labour party. It denied the people of this country a vote on the Lisbon treaty, which was, in effect, a European constitution. The Conservative party has done the same thing, because before the last election the Prime Minister gave a cast-iron guarantee that there would be a vote; and the Lib Dems said, “We must have an in/out referendum,” yet we are now told they will vote against tonight’s motion.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

As the majority of the United Kingdom electorate have never voted on our relationship with the rest of Europe, why does my right hon. Friend believe this Government seek to deny them that right through a referendum? Are they afraid of what answer the people might give?

[Mr Dodds]

I will address the arguments advanced by the Foreign Secretary shortly.

The Democratic Unionist party is the only party in this House that is united in favour of a referendum for the people of the United Kingdom. We have been consistent on that point; we called for a vote on the Lisbon treaty, the Single European Act and Maastricht. We have also been consistent on the euro.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Tuesday 12th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

I agree with my hon. Friend, and the referendum question will, I hope, be the subject of another debate later this evening.

If there is to be a change of date, it has to be to the date of the referendum. There can be absolutely no question of the elections in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland being moved. As all parties in the Northern Ireland Assembly have said—I cannot speak for other devolved legislatures—our council and Assembly elections should proceed on the designated date in May, and the referendum vote should be held at a different time. I hope that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will take that on board, because the situation is unlike the one in Scotland. A Conservative Member mentioned the Scottish Parliament’s ability to move the date of the Scottish Parliament elections, but in Northern Ireland the Assembly cannot vote to move the date of Assembly elections. It can vote by a two-thirds majority to dissolve itself, but only the Secretary of State can move the date of the Assembly elections. That is a real problem.

[Dr McCrea]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is strange that not one Member has spoken up for the Bill from the party that says that the matter is of paramount importance to the UK and must be pushed through before other legislation? In fact, the one Member who spoke to support the Bill, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), said that 90% of his constituents did not even know who he was.

[Mr Dodds]

I am sure that the same could not be said of my hon. Friend. Doubtless at least one Liberal Democrat Member will seek to catch your eye, Mr Hoyle, at some point in the debate, and we all look forward to that contribution immensely.

Given that there has been no pre-legislative scrutiny and that the measure is being rushed through—that flies in the face of normal constitutional conventions about seeking cross-party consensus—and given that legislation will also be introduced on, for example, House of Lords reform, it is vital to take the opportunity tonight to vote down the proposal to hold the referendum on the same date as the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland elections.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Monday 6th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main), whose speech has demonstrated an aspect of what has been an interesting debate. I have sat through a fair amount of it, but have heard few speeches from any party that have been in favour of the Bill. I am sure that that will be reflected in the vote later; I certainly hope so.

I shall deal mainly with the reduction in the number of seats in the House. We welcome the fact that the Prime Minister declares himself to be a Unionist. However, from a Northern Ireland perspective, it is an irony that one of the first things that this self-declared Unionist Prime Minister should have put forward is a proposal to reduce the representation of Northern Ireland in Parliament, given that it was a concession from a Labour Government back in the 1970s that increased the number of seats. That irony will not be lost on the people of Northern Ireland; it certainly will not be lost on those who voted for the Ulster Conservatives and Unionists New Force, or UCUNF, alliance. The Prime Minister did not tell the people of Northern Ireland about the proposal when he was campaigning for votes there, in alliance with the Ulster Unionists; the people, of course, gave their answer to that call. Voters will feel entirely vindicated for having given their overwhelming endorsement to the Democratic Unionist party.

I entirely agree with what the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) said about the need to build a coming-together and consensus among all sections of the different parties in the House on major issues of constitutional and political reform. That clearly has not happened on this issue. It has been rushed through. The hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), the Chair of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, eloquently laid out the lack of pre-legislative scrutiny given to the Bill. This is a major reform, yet it is being rammed through the House as a result of a coalition agreement.

The hon. Member for St Albans graphically described the nature of that agreement. No mandate for this measure was sought at the last election by either the Liberal Democrats or the Conservatives. At the end of the day, if the Bill goes through the House and there is a referendum, I fear that the people of the United Kingdom will give their vote in dramatic terms—delivering a verdict not only on the issue, but on how it has been handled by the coalition Government.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a public concern that our politics is being manipulated for self-interest rather than the good of democracy? That is exemplified by the undue haste with which this legislation is being taken through and by the lack of scrutiny.

[Mr Dodds]

My hon. Friend endorses my point.

On the relationship between the Bill and the devolved legislatures, clause 11 makes special provision for Wales and will ensure that the constituency boundaries for the Welsh Assembly continue. However, the Northern Ireland Assembly constituencies are tied to the parliamentary constituencies. Therefore, a reduction in the number of constituencies there would have a knock-on effect on the composition of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Has the Northern Ireland Assembly or any party therein been consulted thus far? Have the First Minister, Deputy First Minister or any of the Executive parties been consulted? No, they have not, yet there is a major implication for the make-up of the Assembly, which came about only after much intricate, complex and delicate negotiation. At the very least there needs to be a proper consultation and dialogue with the Northern Ireland Assembly parties. Their views on what affects the composition, operation and good functioning of the Assembly need to be taken into account.

A related point has been raised by the Scottish nationalists about the date of the referendum and the difficulty of having a number of elections and a referendum on the same day. On 5 May 2011, we in Northern Ireland face the prospect of having an Assembly election, a council election and a referendum. Northern Irish people are adept at switching between different electoral systems and voting on the same day in different elections. However, it would be unconscionable to hold a referendum and two sets of elections on the one day. Something needs to be done about that, but certainly not at the expense of the elections; in my view, the referendum should be moved to a different date.

I agree with the points made about doing away with the process of transparent representation in respect of the boundary review; that is a very retrograde step. Electors and their representatives are entitled to give evidence and cross-examine in person and to have these important matters examined face to face, not just in writing. It is absolutely wrong for the Government to rush through the nationwide review of boundaries and put in a provision that does away with that face-to-face, open, transparent evidence-taking and cross-examination. Those are a vital part of any boundary review because they allow the issues to be explored in great detail. They allow people to see the common sense as a consensus emerges. At the end of the day, if things are not done openly there will be no transparency and no way of knowing what weight a boundary commissioner will give various elements.

There is also the issue of cost. Up to £100 million is to be spent on all this in the next period, while we are being lectured about the need to cut back drastically—some departmental expenditure is to be cut by up to 25%. All that is involved, yet, let us face it, the vast majority of people have no interest in the issue being pursued. I urge caution. More time should be taken so that we can get a cross-party, consensual approach involving all parties and all the legislatures and representatives from the various constituent parts of the United Kingdom.

Parliamentary Allowances and Short Money

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Wednesday 30th June 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr Dodds]

My hon. Friend raises a very important point. Indeed, in the immediate aftermath of the coverage of the expenses scandal, it was revealed that Sinn Fein Members were claiming nearly £500,000 in accommodation costs for being in London primarily on parliamentary duties although they do not even attend the House. I can describe the situation no more eloquently then the current Secretary of State who, in light of that particular point, said in the Daily Mail on 8 April 2009:

“It is completely unacceptable for Sinn Fein representatives, who won’t even sit in Parliament, to claim hundreds of thousands at the taxpayers’ expense.”

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

We have just faced an emergency Budget in which there were no concessions for pensioners, disabled people or families living in poverty. Why should this Government allow a situation in which continual concessions are made to a party that does not come to this House?

[Mr Dodds]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point on behalf of the many thousands of people in Northern Ireland—and indeed right across the United Kingdom—who find it incomprehensible that public money should be spent in this way. That view is shared by the Secretary of State, who said on 8 April 2009 in The Guardian:

“it is inconceivable that incoming Conservative MPs would vote to continue paying millions of pounds of public money to elected members who do not take their seats.”

We look forward to the Secretary of State, other members of the Government and Government Back Benchers fulfilling their clear, unambiguous promise and commitment to ensuring that millions of pounds of public money are not wasted, as at present, through a two-tier system for Members of Parliament.

I simply offer to Conservative Members the arguments set out in their own words and, as I said earlier, I gently remind the Liberal Democrats them that they chose not to take any position on the issue and granted their Members a free vote. I have no doubt that if the matter were put to the House, there would be a clear majority in favour of removing these allowances, which should never have been granted in the first place.

An argument that has been advanced—it was cited at the time—is that the granting of allowances and so on is a step towards normalisation and that that is necessary to encourage Sinn Fein towards full democratisation and participation in the political process. Indeed, it was felt by some that such a policy would encourage Sinn Fein Members to come to Parliament—effectively killing abstentionism with kindness. That could be one interpretation of the Prime Minister’s recent comments in the House, which I will come on to in a moment.

The granting of allowances to Sinn Fein in 2001 has demonstrated the poverty of that particular argument, however. Following the decision, John Reid, the then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, predicted that Sinn Fein would end its policy of abstention. The Sinn Fein leader, Gerry Adams, has made it absolutely clear that

“There will never, ever be Sinn Fein MPs sitting in the British Houses of Parliament.”

Martin McGuinness has added for good measure that even if the Commons Oath were removed, Sinn Fein Members would still refuse to take their seats. Let no one in this House be under any illusion that bending over backwards, granting allowances, changing and bending the rules, creating a two-tier system of Members of Parliament and interfering with the Oath of Allegiance that Members take will have the slightest impact on Sinn Fein Members taking their seats here in the House of Commons.

Beyond the past debates on the decision, there is also a wider issue of confidence in politics, which I have raised on a number of occasions in this Parliament. That issue was examined by the Kelly review, but the subsequent report made it clear that the decision lay in the political arena by stating:

“The decision to give Sinn Fein Members the right to claim for the full range of expenses without taking up their seats in Parliament was a political one, taken in the light of the particular circumstances of Northern Ireland.”

That is an interesting comment. I would have thought that such a decision should be taken in the interests of the whole House, not in the interests of the political process in Northern Ireland. The report continued to say:

“Removing it would also be a political decision.”

When I raised the matter recently in business questions, along with the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) and others, the Leader of the House replied that it would now be a matter for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. IPSA has stated:

“The Oaths Act 1978 established the position that MPs who do not take the oath may not receive a salary; a Government motion passed through the House of Commons in 2001 established the position that MPs who do not take the oath may claim expenses related to their Parliamentary business. IPSA regards itself as obliged to follow these motions and intends to do so unless the House decides otherwise.”

It is therefore clear that IPSA will administer whatever system is put in place by the House, but it remains for the House to decide whether abstentionist Members are entitled to allowances and Short money. Even the administration of Short money is still a matter for the House authorities, rather than IPSA.

Debate on the Address

Debate between Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Dodds of Duncairn

Tuesday 25th May 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I join the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition in paying tribute to our servicemen and women for their courage, sacrifice and fighting prowess in the service of our country in Afghanistan and elsewhere. As we know only too well from events and recent history in Northern Ireland, the debt that we owe our troops can never be repaid, and we must never forget their sacrifice.

I publicly congratulate you, Mr Speaker, on your re-election to the office of Speaker of this House. The crush in the House last week meant that I was unable to catch your eye on that occasion, but I know that you will continue to defend the rights of Back Benchers and smaller parties in this Parliament, and we wish you well.

I, too, congratulate the proposer and seconder of the motion on the Loyal Address, and I congratulate also the Prime Minister on his appointment. We, certainly on these Unionist Benches, wish him well personally as he embarks on the most onerous of tasks at one of the most challenging and dangerous times in our modern history.

As I look around the House, I see many new faces, but at such times we miss some of the old faces. I welcome the new Members, including those on our Benches, my hon. Friends the Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), who shares the same name as the former Member for North Antrim. We are delighted by my hon. Friend’s tremendous victory in that constituency, but I pay tribute to his father, the right hon. Dr Ian Paisley, who sat on these Benches for 40 years. A great parliamentarian and a great Ulsterman, he led our party through dark and difficult years in our Province and, ultimately, ensured the victory of democracy, with Northern Ireland at relative peace today and firmly within the United Kingdom. I also pay tribute to the right hon. Peter Robinson, the former Member for Belfast, East, who served here for 31 years and whose seat on these Benches I now occupy. As our leader and First Minister of the Northern Ireland Assembly, he continues to do vital work for Northern Ireland in securing and embedding devolution there. However, he will undoubtedly be missed in this place because of his outstanding service to his constituents and his country.

As we meet here today to debate the Gracious Speech, the “almost” election is our backdrop. The Conservatives almost won an outright majority; the Labour party almost held on or almost imploded, depending on one’s perspective; the Liberal Democrats almost made an electoral breakthrough; and my own party almost held the balance of power at one stage—indeed, the minority parties almost came to form a Government with the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats.

The product of that “almost” election is altogether novel, certainly in respect of the past six or seven decades: a coalition Government. The coalition nature of the Government places an additional responsibility on them as they go about the nation’s work. The decision of the people was not clear-cut; no single party manifesto was endorsed as manifestos have been previously. Like the programme for government and the original coalition agreement, the Queen’s Speech is the result of negotiation and bargaining, with compromises, dilutions and sidesteps involved in the drafting.

As they introduce their legislation, I suggest that the Government show throughout a greater degree of sensitivity and flexibility to the proposals and criticisms from those of us on the Opposition Benches. I certainly suggest that more sensitivity and flexibility is required than the Prime Minister has heretofore displayed in relation to the management of his own party. If positivity is the spirit and practice adopted by the new Government, Opposition parties should respond in kind and act conscientiously in the national interest, as we in this Parliament collectively try to steer our nation through these troubled and risky times—whether the issue is the war in Afghanistan, the threat to our national security, or our economy.

When the coalition fails or its internal tensions lead to questionable compromises, Opposition parties must do more than deride—they must offer sensible alternatives. I am sure that in this new Parliament there will be a greater role for those of us from Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales as we seek to hold the Government to account. I hope that in the business of the House our new role will be recognised, as we were told it would be in the previous Parliament.

We have been told that the new Government are the radical, inspiring and progressive choice. In the name of era-changing, convention-challenging, radical reform, never has so much been sent to a review, referred to a committee or subjected to further examination. However, rather than tease them about the gap between rhetoric and reality, I simply emphasise the point that rather than being a means to manage the coalition’s contradictions, those should be a means of addressing the individual or collective concerns of all Opposition parties in the House.

With that attitude of constructive criticism, my party welcomes the Government’s making it clear that their primary duty is to our national security and the conflict in Afghanistan and elsewhere. I pay tribute to our troops, as all speakers have. When our servicemen and women come back home from the battlefront and service overseas, it is important that we in the House ensure that they are treated properly, that they are given help and support to readjust to civilian life and get into employment, that their health concerns are addressed and that their families are given care and consideration. In that regard, the strength of the role ceded to the Treasury in the original coalition Government agreement for the proposed defence review is of concern to me and my colleagues.

The urgent task of tackling the deficit will be the ultimate test of the Government and of this Parliament. During the election campaign, my party questioned the sense of reducing public expenditure in the order of £6 billion in this financial year. That concern, which has already been mentioned, was shared by the Liberal Democrats until their road to Downing street conversion. The UK economy is barely in recovery, and there is potential for further shocks, especially arising from events within the eurozone. Some point to the troubles of the Greek economy and the economies of other nations within the eurozone as portents of impending doom. However, that overlooks the fact that those countries held pre-existing levels of debt prior to the downturn, and ignores the fact that a core source of the problem is that in an act of political will a group of economies that were too divergent were squeezed into the euro project; as often happens, economics can trump political will. I am glad that in their agreement—their programme for government—the coalition Government wisely made it clear that there is no question of the United Kingdom’s entering the euro, because that gives us flexibility and freedom in relation to devaluation and interest rate adjustments and the ability to respond to difficult and challenging times.

My party is convinced that there is a lack of sophistication in the Government’s long-term thinking to tackle the deficit. As the Prime Minister kindly pointed out when he came to Northern Ireland, in a now infamous television broadcast with Jeremy Paxman that was aired quite a lot in Northern Ireland during the election campaign, there are significantly different levels of reliance on the public sector in regional economies across the United Kingdom. In many of these regions, there has been an inability to recover from the economic damage of the early years of the last Conservative Government, but in Northern Ireland there was the overriding factor of a terrorist campaign that included economic destruction as one of its goals. Indeed, for many years leading industrialists and businessmen in Northern Ireland were actively targeted for assassination by the Provisional IRA. Therefore, taking the same approach across all regions of the United Kingdom cannot and will not work. What is required is a plan that takes account of those variations. Make no mistake about it, we have made tremendous progress in Northern Ireland in moving towards peace and stability, but no one in this House should be in any doubt that there is a strong correlation between embedding that peace and having economic stability and prosperity as we go forward.

The Government will point to their pledge for growth balanced across the regions and all industries. However, the details on how that will be achieved—for the north-east of England, Northern Ireland, or any other region—are decidedly lacking. The policy proposals are of course always subject to the strong caveat of tackling the deficit. The cuts are clear and definite, while the proposals to expand the private sector are vague—somewhere out in the middle distance. Simply cutting the budget and public expenditure will not solve the weakness of the private sector in any region. We must ensure that policies on the economy do not entrench economic division and disparities to the detriment of the United Kingdom as a whole.

On tax policies, my party will closely examine the emergency Budget. In particular, we will assess the case for changing capital gains tax allowances and any proposals to recognise marriage in the tax system. My party is a socially conservative party—perhaps the only one left in this Chamber willing to describe itself unambiguously in those terms—and therefore our natural instincts are to support a marriage allowance. However, such a measure must take place in a policy context of supporting the traditional family unit and be the best use of resources. In any broken community, one of the fault lines is invariably broken families. In that regard, some of the discussion in the coalition Government is positive, particularly in relation to proposals on the commercialisation and sexual exploitation of children. We will watch with interest to see whether the talk of supporting families and marriage is fulfilled or whether the ingrained tendency to bow to minority interest groups wins through.

On banking reform, we welcome the part of the Gracious Speech that suggests that there will be legislation on financial services reform, learning the lessons from the financial crisis. I am sure that you, Mr Speaker, like other hon. Members who were on the doorsteps, could not have failed to be taken by the immense anger that still exists among the public at the financial sector and those in banking who brought about the economic and fiscal crisis in our country, for which all of us will now have to pay very heavily. I therefore welcome proposals to reform the banking system and to help, at long last, those who were Equitable Life savers. I hope that that help will be extended to those who saved through the Presbyterian Mutual Society in Northern Ireland, who are in a similar position and to whom the last Government promised some help and assistance. I know that when the Prime Minister was in Belfast recently, he discussed the matter with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister.

We will focus on the proposals on small and medium-sized enterprises and access to credit. By one official definition, 99% of all businesses in Northern Ireland are small businesses, so the importance and economic role of that sector cannot be overstated as far as we are concerned.

On crime and policing, we welcome the Government’s clear announcement that they will abolish ID cards, which we believe were misconceived and worth nothing in value for money. That is a sensible and progressive step. We will examine closely the proposals for more directly elected oversight of the police. We have concerns about that and will therefore examine the details carefully as they emerge, but we will support strongly measures to give ordinary citizens greater protections in tackling criminals and intruders, as well as new measures to tackle antisocial behaviour and the destructive culture of binge drinking.

On defence, I welcome the proposals to retain Trident. It is important and right that this country should have its own independent nuclear deterrent, and, as I said, more needs to be done to improve pay, conditions and care for our soldiers and veterans.

To describe my party’s attitude to the coalition’s proposals on Europe as “sceptical” would be an understatement. In the last Parliament, I had the honour of introducing a private Member’s Bill calling on both the then Labour Government and the official Opposition to honour their pledges to the people of the United Kingdom when they promised that there would be a referendum and that the people of this country would have their say on whether the Lisbon treaty—or the European constitution, as it is known—should be implemented. Sadly, both major parties reneged on their promises and pledges.

I welcome the proposal in the Queen’s Speech for a Bill on a referendum lock on the further transfer of powers to Brussels, but many people who have followed closely the development of the European Union and sought to bring more democracy to our proceedings will say that it is a bit late now to bring in such a lock, when most crucial powers have already been transferred. It is regrettable also that there is no clear commitment to seek the return of powers, even in cases such as the common fisheries policy in which the failure and ineptitude of current EU policies is plain for everyone to see.

The failure to seek to get powers back to the United Kingdom goes beyond the matter of national sovereignty and is to do with this place’s relevance and our usefulness to the people. The end of the last Parliament was marred by public anger and disconnect with politics. Duck houses and moats could explain that public anger being triggered, but not the depth of frustration that was unleashed. I contend that that frustration was born of an inability of Government and Parliament to act on behalf of the people in areas in which the people believed they should do so. On far too many issues, when the public turn to politicians for action they are met with hand-wringing about why things cannot be done—this EU regulation or that, a judicial ruling or the fear of one, or the fact that the decision lies with some unresponsive quango. The less legislative or administrative space we have under our direct control, the less we can try to effect. The less we can effect, the less relevant we politicians are. I hope that the Government’s proposals on political reform will go some way to addressing that in this Parliament.

On the references to devolution in the Queen’s Speech, I welcome the commitment to

“work constructively and co-operatively with the devolved institutions”.

The devolved institutions in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales are working well. Indeed, a meeting of the First Ministers of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland took place in Belfast just yesterday to discuss co-operation and common interest.

I also welcome the Government’s support for the political institutions and stable, devolved government in Northern Ireland. I am sure that the whole House welcomes the fact that, despite challenges from several quarters, my party’s progressive, positive message of moving Northern Ireland forward, supporting the devolved institutions, and working through power sharing to provide the best means of getting prosperity and peace in Northern Ireland, was overwhelmingly endorsed in the general election. That happened despite the efforts of some to split the Unionist vote and allow even more republicans and nationalists to gain entrance to the House and take their seats in opposition to the Union that some proclaim that they support.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

Will my hon. Friend note that the words:

“My Government will support the political institutions and stable…government in Northern Ireland”

are not enough, because with the other hand the Government are pulling the financial rug from under us? Will he ask the Government to assure us that the recent devolution of policing and justice will not be undermined by the removal of any finances from it?

[Mr Dodds]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question; he alludes to the devolution of policing and justice. My party brought that forward, completing the jigsaw of the devolution of powers to the Northern Ireland Assembly and putting the Assembly on a stable footing. He is right to point to the need to ensure that devolution of powers must be matched by devolution of resources so that we have the means and ability to move forward on the crucial issue of policing, which has bedevilled Northern Ireland for decades, and so that both sides of our community can continue to progress with that. I welcome the fact that, after many decades, nationalists and republicans in Northern Ireland now support the forces of law and order, the rule of law, the British courts and the justice system in Northern Ireland. We welcome that progress. There should never have been violence—there was never an excuse for it—but the recent development is extremely welcome. However, as my hon. Friend points out, it needs to be properly resourced.

I conclude on a point that several speakers have mentioned—the 55% proposal for dissolving Parliament. I welcome the proposal for a fixed-term Parliament—it is overdue and the right decision. After listening to some Labour spokesmen, I must point out that that proposal did not get anywhere under Labour in the past 13 years, and I welcome its introduction now. However, I share the reservations of those who have spoken about the 55% threshold. It is dangerous and undermines parliamentary democracy. When the Government introduce their proposals for a fixed-term Parliament, I urge them to withdraw the 55% proposal before they tarnish their reputation within days of getting under way. They should reconsider the ill-conceived suggestion of a 55% threshold. I know that they will say that there are similar provisions in Scotland and the Northern Ireland Assembly. However, those are devolved institutions and the creations of statute; this is the sovereign Parliament of the United Kingdom and there should therefore be no question of introducing an undemocratic threshold, which is against every tradition—indeed, every value—of democracy. We should maintain the current position.

We wish the Government well as they undertake their onerous work at the start of the new Parliament. On balance, my party will vote against the Queen’s Speech because the proposals that get it wrong outweigh those that get it right. However, as regards our future attitude, we will watch the development of Government proposals closely, the way in which they are introduced and their content, and we will judge each one on its merits.