Constitutional Settlement

Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale Excerpts

Thursday 11th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, for securing this debate. His consistent and very considered contribution over the years to debates across the United Kingdom on matters relating to the UK’s role in Europe, Scottish devolution and a whole host of other constitutional issues has earned him the right to open this debate and he did so in some style. However, although I welcome the fact that the debate covers both the potential break-up of the United Kingdom and the case for considering an alternative constitutional settlement, it is vital that we do not just propose the need for a debate on an alternative constitutional settlement in response to the current situation in Scotland. Our objective should be to seek the best constitutional settlement for the United Kingdom and for the people of the United Kingdom—and, from my perspective particularly, for the people of Scotland—not just that which is tactically helpful for those of us who believe that the United Kingdom has a role in the modern world at this time.

I believe passionately that Scotland is best placed inside the United Kingdom—the most successful voluntary union of nations the world has ever seen. The success of Scotland since 1707 in making probably the single biggest contribution to global development and thought per head of population of any nation anywhere in the world is one that we should be proud of, not one that we should reject. However, I am not wedded to the union itself as a value or a principle; I support the union because of values and principles and believe very much that membership of the United Kingdom is in the best interests of what I regard as my homeland, Scotland, and of the future of the people who live, and will live, there in the years to come. I also believe that it is best for the people of the rest of the United Kingdom and that we are—as I think the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, said in respect of the United Kingdom’s relationship with other nations, whether in the Commonwealth, Europe or elsewhere—better when we work together than when we divide apart.

As I may have said in this Chamber before, my first vote was cast in 1979, in the unsuccessful devolution referendum. I remember the debates well. They had a lasting impact on my political outlook and my attitude to the conduct of politics. One of the many reasons for the outcome of the vote in 1979 was that there was no consensus on the best form of devolution or home rule for Scotland. There were doubts about the motives of even some who supported that position. Across Scotland, the conditions were not yet right for a decisive change to the UK’s constitutional structure.

The work done by the Scottish Constitutional Convention—I had the honour to serve as a member of its executive committee from 1992 to 1997—was marked by its success. That was thanks to the terrific contribution by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, who will close the debate, but also because not only did it involve civic Scotland and wider public support, it was politically led with clarity of purpose. If I have one concern about the proposal for a constitutional convention for the whole of the United Kingdom, it is that it is important to have a sense of purpose for such a body and for it not to operate in a vacuum. There must be an end in sight, even if the details are not all clear at the beginning.

It is important to reflect on the changes that have been made since 1997. There is no doubt in my mind that, despite all the ups and downs, despite my criticisms of the current Scottish Government, despite the difficulties that have occurred over the years from time to time in Northern Ireland and the challenges that running an autonomous home-rule government has posed for the people of Wales and Scotland, devolution has been a success in the United Kingdom. The confidence of the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is undoubtedly higher than it was in 1997. Many areas of public life, economic life and social life in those three parts of the United Kingdom are stronger today than they were back in 1997. Despite the fact that things are not perfect, there is no doubt in my mind that things are better than they were then.

That is also true for the city of London. Whatever fun we may have with the current Lord Mayor—sorry, the mayor—and whatever criticisms some Members may have had of the previous mayor, having a mayor has been great for the city of London. I hope that, over time, the development of mayors in other parts of England or even other parts of the United Kingdom will ensure that the great cities of the UK can play their role alongside the devolved governments.

Those changes were important for the overcentralised United Kingdom that existed before, but they were followed by other changes: changes to our judicial system, changes in our relationship with Europe, changes in central government’s relationship with local government and considerable changes in your Lordships’ House and even in the House of Commons. On far too many occasions, in my view, under both the previous and the current Government, those changes have been reactive. They have been in response to public disquiet or, sometimes, just media disquiet, about the behaviour of politicians or the outcome of political decisions. Although most of the changes were certainly welcome and have improved our democracy, they were too piecemeal to be as permanent and effective as they could have been.

Rather than reacting again and again to circumstances and events, it is vital that an overview is taken of the next constitutional steps and changes to the United Kingdom. Just as it should not be a reaction to a referendum on Scottish independence, it should also not be a reaction to the latest story that dominates the headlines and causes questioning of the role of politics, government and politicians.

Although there is definitely a need for some kind of debate on the nature of the United Kingdom and just how federal the UK is to become—we will have today a great contribution on this from the noble Lord, Lord Soley, supported by others—and perhaps a case for a constitutional convention or royal commission of some sort, there is a need among the political parties to provide some leadership in that debate with a sense of purpose and, where possible, unity.

I make three points that I would like considered as part of that discussion. They do not affect the wider constitutional framework of the UK or aspects such as the judiciary. First, in debate on reform of your Lordships’ House, an aspect was missing. I remember interesting—almost exciting—discussions with the late Robin Cook when he was given the responsibility of constitutional reform as leader of the other House. One option that we discussed at the time was whether there was some way to create a second Chamber in the United Kingdom that better reflected not just the nations of the United Kingdom but the regions of England, as an alternative to the failed attempt to create regional self-government for England. Perhaps we could revisit that option in debate in this House. I think there is scope—not necessarily by direct elections, perhaps indirectly, and not based just on the nations but on the regions—for a more representative second Chamber for these Houses of Parliament that reflects all the regions and nations of the United Kingdom.

My second point was that I witnessed with dismay the Prime Minister’s recent Cabinet reshuffle. Yet again, the Prime Minister backed away from an essential development of Cabinet government in the UK: the creation of a department for constitutional affairs. Moving away from the territorial departments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is long overdue. We will not have the culture of respect for the devolved Governments and an understanding of the regions and nations of the United Kingdom at the centre of the UK Government until such a change takes place.

As I am about to reach my 11th minute, I shall leave it at that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

The noble Lord certainly makes a tempting proposition.

The noble Lord is right to say that there has been a groundswell among people here, but, as my noble friend Lord Maclennan said, experience in many other countries seems to suggest that constitutional conventions work best when they come from the citizenry and work up rather than from Houses as grand and noble as this and feed down. They are often driven by the public rather than politicians. That was certainly the case with citizens’ assemblies in Canada and the Netherlands, which considered issues such as electoral reform before putting their findings to a referendum, and Iceland, where a constitutional council drafted a new constitution for consideration as a Bill by the Parliament. It is also fair to say that the Scottish Constitutional Convention did not come from the Executive, the Government. Indeed, it came in the face of the Government’s opposition to it. It came from civic Scotland and two of the opposition parties and was very successful because it engaged civic Scotland.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale]

Perhaps the most important thing about the Scottish Constitutional Convention was that combination between the demand from campaigning organisations and civic Scotland for such a convention and the political leadership that allowed the convention to be meaningful and to make the decisions required that allowed parliamentary change to occur. The combination of the claim of rights which came from the campaign for a Scottish Assembly and civic Scotland, then endorsed by the parliamentarians and the parliamentary leadership, including the noble and learned Lord, ensured that the decisions made in the convention could be implemented and enacted.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

That is an important combination but, as the noble Lord confirms, the initial surge came from the people. In all fairness, there is no evidence at present of a strong public appetite for a wide-ranging convention, but the issue will certainly not go away. Work is being done by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee in the House of Commons; it will report. Fertile ideas are being put forward. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister, when he was asked by the First Minister of Wales about establishing a constitutional convention on the future of the United Kingdom, said that he agreed that we will need an open, involved and comprehensive conversation about the kind of union we want to see and that, almost 15 years after the process of devolution started in the United Kingdom, we should consider the best way to go about doing so. However, he went on to say he believed that a better time to do that would be once the Scottish referendum debate has come to a conclusion and that we need first to focus on winning the case for the union in Scotland.

A lot of other important constitutional developments are taking place with the theme of trying to reconnect with the electorate, to face up to some of the disrepute into which our political system had fallen—for example, the proposed legislation on recall of Members of Parliament and on electoral administration to try to eliminate electoral fraud. They are all relevant in trying to reconnect, but I fundamentally believe that although in no way should we stop thinking about those things—in Scotland, the three unionist parties, which are the Labour Party, the Scottish Conservatives and the Scottish Liberal Democrats, are all thinking about how we might take forward the devolution settlement—when we consider the future of the constitution of the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom includes Scotland. In the next two years, we need to focus first on winning the case for the union in Scotland. It is a strong case, but we cannot for a moment be complacent about it.

Scotland: Referendum

Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale Excerpts

Wednesday 10th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I hear and take on board what my noble friend says. I have made it clear that the position of the UK Government has been that in terms of extending the franchise to parliamentary elections, there ought to be a consensus. We have not yet identified that consensus. Although some parties have commitments to it, a consensus has not been identified for the extension of the franchise to 16 and 17 year-olds in parliamentary elections, and we have no plans to legislate on extending the franchise to 16 and 17 year-olds.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale]

My Lords, one or two reasonable points may well have been made by the noble and learned Lord, but one of the premises on which many of us were prepared to support the transfer of legal authority for a referendum to the Scottish Parliament was that it would be part of the negotiations that no one could say after a referendum that the rules for that referendum had been fixed, whether by the Scottish Government or anybody else. Given that the Scottish Government command an absolute majority in the Scottish Parliament, these negotiations are therefore very important indeed. Not just on the issue of the franchise but on the issues of the timing and the financing of the different sides in a referendum, it is vital that the Government secure commitments from the Scottish Government that the rules for the referendum will be fair enough to ensure that all of us can accept the result afterwards. I would like an assurance from the Minister that the Government still have that as an objective in these final days of the negotiations.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I give the noble Lord the absolute assurance that our objective throughout has been to achieve a referendum which is fair, decisive and legal. As the noble Lord said, it should be a referendum where, at the end of the day and when the votes are counted, no one can claim foul play. I underline to the House the importance which we attach, and which I think the Scottish Government now attach, to the Electoral Commission having a very important part to play in the conduct of any referendum.