Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedules 4 and 5 and Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 2015

Lord Maxton Excerpts

Thursday 26th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I shall tell noble Lords the truth of the matter. I do not know if it has been made public before. The reason it happened was that the registrar wished to release the papers in connection with the theft of the Stone of Scone on Christmas Eve in the 1950s, which showed that the then Conservative Secretary of State was then in favour of returning the Stone of Scone to Scotland. It was not returned because at that time Scottish nationalist elements were blowing up postboxes because they had EIIR on them, not EIR, and the then Government decided that to return it at that time would be to give encouragement to those lawless courses. I realised full well that people such as my noble friend Lord Purvis, when those papers were released, would immediately start a campaign and therefore reconsidered the merits of returning the Stone of Scone, on the basis that a treaty, the treaty of Northampton, was signed by the English that promised to do so. As Secretary of State, I felt that, after about 600 years, I ought to maintain the rule of law. It certainly was not a stunt. Given the trouble we were in in 1996 politically, if my noble friend thinks that I thought that returning the Stone of Scone would make one whit of difference, he underestimates my intelligence.

I say to this Government: this constitutional tinkering absolutely has to stop. Look at us—the House of Commons, the other place, went down the other evening at 6 pm. Have we not learnt from the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill? Have we not learnt from the Recall of MPs Bill, which I have been involved in? We have had several debates where I have said, “This is not going to happen. If someone gets into trouble, their party will withdraw the whip and they will not be able to stand”. Very sadly—most unfortunately, I think—Sir Malcolm Rifkind now finds himself with the whip being withdrawn within 12 hours, before any report is given. The whip is taken away from him and he cannot stand. This is coming from a Government who are telling us that Members who get into trouble have the right to face the electorate and the electorate will decide.

This kind of constitutional stuff, which is about partnerships between parties and trying to seize political advantage, was started by Tony Blair and it absolutely has to stop. I very much regret that this House can do nothing about it because of the way that the Government have approached it.

[Lord Maxton (Lab)]

My Lords, can we assume that the noble Lord is agreeing with the idea of having a constitutional commission and convention that would look at the whole of the British constitution before deciding any of these issues?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. As he knows, I do favour that. I believe that the Liberals favour having a constitutional convention and the Labour Party favour having a constitutional convention. Perhaps if we called it something else—let us call it a constitutional convocation or a bright idea—perhaps then we could get a consensus. I absolutely agree with the noble Lord: these things need to be considered; they need to carry wholehearted agreement; and, of course, with each step along the road that is made without thinking of the long-term consequences, it becomes even more difficult to unravel and create a proper settlement. So I entirely agree. On that note of consensus, I hope I have persuaded the Minister to withdraw this ridiculous order.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Maxton]

I wondered whether the Minister voted by post before the vow, like the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and I did.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

Yes, I did. I voted out of sheer conviction that the right thing to do was maintain Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom.

My noble friend Lord Stephen asked us to do a reality check on what we are about here. This is taking forward recommendations from the Smith commission. The Smith agreement is important, not least because it was endorsed by five political parties in the Scottish Parliament. Looking back, the Scottish Constitutional Convention engaged many parts of civic society in Scotland but, in terms of political parties, it included only the Labour Party, the Scottish Liberal Democrats, the Scottish Greens and the Scottish Socialist Party. It did not include two large parties: the Conservative Party and the Scottish National Party. The Calman commission, the recommendations of which led to the Scotland Act 2012, engaged the Labour Party, the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats, as well as others, but it did not engage the Scottish National Party. Here we have an agreement that has been fed into by representatives of five parties, including the Conservative Party, the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats, the Scottish National Party and the Scottish Green Party.

Scotland: Draft Legislation

Lord Maxton Excerpts

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, my noble friend will recall that the referendum required a Section 30 order to be passed by this House. It was certainly the view of the United Kingdom Government that there was no legal competence within the Scottish Parliament to do so and there is nothing in these draft clauses that would change that. It would still be a matter for this House and the other place to pass a Section 30 order if there were to be a further referendum.

[Lord Maxton (Lab)]

My Lords, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, I am a supporter of devolution and have been for a very long time. I also want to make it clear that, like the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, I voted by post; I voted before the vow; and I did not vote necessarily for further change or devolution to Scotland. I voted no to the simple question of whether Scotland should be an independent country. That is my first point.

My second point is that it is all right to say, “It’s a matter for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government to deal with local government” but that was part of the Smith commission report, which the SNP accepted. What guarantees does the Minister have from the Scottish Government that they will implement further devolution to local government rather than just say that it is a matter for the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament to do that? It is not enough to say that. It has to be a guarantee before we start legislating on anything else.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I too voted by post before the vow was made. However, it is also fair to say that the vow raised an expectation, and if a vow which was made was not honoured then that would be a serious destabilisation of the United Kingdom. With regard to the second point on devolution from the Scottish Parliament, in fairness that appears not in the report itself but in the foreword by the noble Lord, Lord Smith. I seem to recall that when he delivered his report he indicated that those were personal reflections, and those reflections have chimed well with many people. That is why it is incumbent on us within our respective parties to try to make sure that the drive for greater decentralisation and devolution within Scotland is carried forward.

Scotland: Independence

Lord Maxton Excerpts

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Maxton (Lab)]

My Lords, at this stage of the evening there is always a temptation to start debating rather than delivering a speech, particularly if you have been at the other end of the Corridor, where Members debate much more than they do here. However, I wish to give the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, a collective noun—perhaps a “prickle” of thistles might be appropriate.

Along with many others, I will not discuss the report on which this debate is configured, partly because I live in Scotland and have a vote in the referendum. I hope that the cameras will pick up the badge I am wearing, which says no. I will vote no and I believe that we will win the vote on 18 September, which happens to be my late father’s birthday, and therefore the report will become irrelevant, however good it may be and however well it may be received.

I do not know from where the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, draws his opinion that the polls are narrowing, because the latest opinion polls in Scotland show that the polls are widening, not narrowing towards independence. Certainly, all the serious polls are now saying that. I assume that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, was referring to a private school in Edinburgh when he addressed that issue. However, pupils in school after school in Scotland have debated this issue, have voted on it and, time after time, the result has been a resounding no. The 16 to 18 year-olds who Mr Alex Salmond thought would all vote for independence are proving him very wrong.

Secondly, despite what has been said today, the people of Scotland must realise that they are not voting for one further stage towards better devolution. I support giving further powers to the people of Scotland, although not necessarily to all the institutions of Scotland, but please let us stop confusing devolution and independence: they are two totally different animals. The people will be voting to establish an independent state which is separate from the rest of the United Kingdom. Unlike devolution, it is not a decision that can be changed, modified or reversed by democratic process if it does not work or if circumstances change. Some things may well need to come back to central government as opposed to going to the devolved powers.

It is not about Mr Alex Salmond and David Cameron or about a Tory Government versus the so-called left-wing one in Scotland: it is an irreversible decision. If Scotland votes yes, the only way back to the United Kingdom will be on its bended knees and, even then, the rest of the United Kingdom may say, “Very sorry but we don’t want you any more”. However, I also believe that, if Scotland votes no, a very long time must pass before we have another referendum on this issue. A 60:40 result is good enough. It should be enough to say, “No, no more, we are not going to have any more referendums on this issue”. There is only one way that could occur, and it will not be from a vote in the Scottish Parliament. It could occur only if the SNP gained a majority of seats in the House of Commons. Then there might be a case for saying, “We will hold another referendum”.

If Mr Salmond wins by one vote, he will demand an independent country. However, I have to say to my noble friend Lord Foulkes, with whom I do not often disagree, although I do on this issue, that it is my view that if the SNP loses the referendum, particularly if it loses it as convincingly as I believe it will, there is a hard core, English-hating, independence at any cost part of the SNP that will turn on Mr Salmond and blame him for the failure, and the party will rip itself apart because it will have lost its purpose. It will no longer have a reason for existing if it can no longer claim that it is seeking independence.

Thirdly, it is surely time that we ask why Scotland should become an independent country and a separate state. What is it that divides us from the rest of the United Kingdom? Normally, when you look at history—I am a quasi history teacher from a long time ago—you see four major things that divide one nation from another. One is language. Well, we speak the same language. I was in Bruges recently, where Flemish and Dutch are spoken, whereas in Brussels French is spoken, so Belgium is divided. However, we are not divided; there is no difference in language. There may sometimes be a difference in dialect but there is no difference in language.

As regards religion, Scotland itself may sometimes be divided by religion, but it is not divided from the rest of the United Kingdom by religion. As regards race, there are different races in the United Kingdom but the Scots do not make up a separate race. Otherwise, if we voted yes on the 18th, my brothers, my sister, my nephews and my nieces would not only become foreigners but would also be part of a different race, which is just unimaginable.

The status quo is the present union, so why are we dividing it? The last issue is that of a boundary, to which the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, referred. There is no natural frontier or boundary between Scotland and England. In fact, when we used to drive north, my father used to throw his cigarette out the window because he never smoked in Scotland. When we crossed the Solway, he would say, “We are now in Scotland”. However, the border is now 200, 300 or 400 yards up the road.

Noble Lords may not be surprised by my final point. In the modern world, where we have a global economy and some companies are bigger than nation states and have a greater turnover than many nation states, why on earth would we split up a small country like ours into different parts and say to one part of it, “You can control your economy”? No, you cannot. We are struggling in this country in the global economy to tax companies properly. Surely that will be the case if we have an independent Scotland. Therefore, I will vote no and I hope that the rest of Scotland will follow my example.

Scotland: Independence Referendum

Lord Maxton Excerpts

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Maxton (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Lang, for introducing this debate. I go back far enough with the noble Lord. He was the Scottish Whip and I was the opposition Scottish Whip at the same time. That was way back in the 1980s. I also congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, or Annabel as many of us would prefer to call her, on her maiden speech and the very good way in which she introduced herself to this House. I hope that she will have a long career within the second Chamber of the Houses of Parliament.

I suppose that I am almost unique. I speak with an English accent but I am, unlike the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, 100% Scots. My mother and father were both Scottish. I will have a vote in the Scottish referendum because I live in Scotland. My wife will have a vote, my three sons will have votes and two of their wives will have votes. But my brothers and my sister who live in England, and their children and their wives, will not have votes. They will suddenly become foreigners if Scotland votes yes. It cannot be right for that to happen. It must not be allowed to happen and we must make sure that the vote is a clear-cut no. I say to those who quite rightly have said that a yes vote is for ever, I am hoping that a no vote will last if not for ever, then for a very long time, and that it will be a long time before this issue is raised again.

I have always been a supporter of devolution. I believe in devolution, but devolution is about democracy. In fact, what has happened in Scotland is that nationalism has been the enemy of devolution, not its friend. It has stopped the natural process of devolution taking place in Scotland. Devolution is about giving power to the people to take decisions within their own communities, at the level at which they ought to be taken, in a democratic fashion. What has happened in Scotland is that devolution has stopped in Edinburgh with the Scottish Parliament. There has been no devolution downwards towards local authorities. There have been changes in the way that we vote in local authorities but not in the powers that they have. We now have a single Scottish police force and a single Scottish fire service and we will continue down that line.

Far from being a friend of devolution, if anything, nationalism and the SNP have been the enemy of devolution and have stopped devolution from evolving as it ought to have done—not just in Scotland but in the rest of the United Kingdom. Devolution could have happened in the United Kingdom if, to be honest, the example of what had happened in Scotland had not been there for the people in the rest of the United Kingdom to see. One of my major reasons for speaking today is to say that and say that nationalism and devolution are not the same thing and we must not confuse them.

Yes, we have to move on. We have to take this opportunity of saying that we have to change the way in which the United Kingdom is governed. What I have to say will not surprise noble Lords who have heard me speak before. The concept of a separate Scottish independent nation state—that is what independence means—in the modern world is so old-fashioned and out of date that it is unbelievable. We may be Scots. I am a Scot. I have a son who played sport at a reasonable level for Scotland. But the idea that we should have a separate state as small as Scotland in a global economy is old-fashioned, out of date and not to be contemplated.

If we are going to look at our constitution, please let us take this opportunity to look forward using the ways in which we now can look at the world. We can buy our goods across the world, which is why the young people are not now in Scotland, despite what Mr Alex Salmond thought, supporting the yes vote. They will support the no vote because they believe in an international world—a world bigger and broader than a nation state, where economies are bigger and broader. Even the United Kingdom national government are no longer able to control properly and fully the economy in which we operate because so much of the economy is now outside our control. It is even outside European control.

When we look at our constitution, yes, let us examine it, but this is not just about handing more power to Scotland: it is about ensuring that we now have a modern constitution within the modern world. I hope that point will be taken.

Glasgow Helicopter Crash

Lord Maxton Excerpts

Monday 2nd December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

Certainly, any public statements I have seen on television by both the chief constable and the deputy chief constable have been exactly that. As I said in the Statement, it is worth reminding ourselves that they themselves suffered the loss of colleagues in this tragedy. Notwithstanding that, they have acted with exemplary professionalism.

[Lord Maxton (Lab)]

My Lords, as an ex-Member of Parliament for one of the Glasgow seats, I take this opportunity to say both that I mourn for the people of Glasgow today and that I am proud of them for the way in which they have reacted to this tragedy. First, it is a compliment in these modern times that there is no photograph of the tragedy because everybody went to help rather than taking out their iPhones and taking photographs. I have a serious question, because it is a very serious moment. The latest reports say that there was no mayday signal from the helicopter before it crashed. Is this correct? Does it not say something about what happened to that helicopter if there was no mayday signal?