Health and Social Care Bill

Lord Mawson Excerpts

Wednesday 21st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, first of all, the Bill does not provide for PCT property to be transferred to GP practices. The policy on where property may be transferred is still under development but we have powers in the Bill to transfer property to the appropriate body in the new architecture. The noble Baroness will realise that many decisions around this have to be taken locally on a case-by-case basis. We have powers in the Bill to create schemes with enough flexibility to allow this.

If, for the sake of argument, a clinical commissioning group owns property which is surplus to requirements, it will have to go through all the proper processes overseen by its own audit committee and its governing body to ensure that public assets are disposed of for value and in a proper and arm’s-length way. Where a conflict of interest rears its head, the provisions governing conflicts of interest will cut in. It will not be open to the clinicians who have authority within the clinical commissioning group, or, indeed, practices which are members of the clinical commissioning group, to benefit in an improper way. It will have to be done openly. If a GP practice were to wish to acquire property that is owned by the CCG, there will be transparent processes to make sure that this is done in the correct fashion. In these circumstances, the property deeds are transferred to the clinical commissioning group as a corporate entity. They are not transferred to the individual GP members, and once transferred to CCGs, if the governing body wished to dispose of property, that, as I say, has to be done in accordance with the same safeguards that currently apply to PCTs. I hope that that reassures the noble Baroness.

[Lord Mawson]

I encourage the Minister to look very carefully at the practicalities of this because I can think of at least two or three examples of health centres in which I have been involved where it did come down to the property, the ownership and the GP—I can think of one now—where one brought together all the practitioners and key community groups to secure development. The person who stopped that development was the GP because of their interests and pension arrangements in the building. Therefore, in my view, it is important to be very careful about these practical arrangements if we want integration to occur.

[Earl Howe]

I suspect that the example the noble Lord has in mind involved GP practice premises rather than property owned by an NHS body such as a primary care trust. I suggest that the two cases are rather different. However, I take the noble Lord’s point that integration of services at a delivery level can often be very advantageous to patient communities. Some of the most successful examples that I have seen are of practices where many facilities are available on site for the patient. We are seeing more and more of these being created around the country. We should encourage that.