Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill
Debate between Lord Maude of Horsham and Lord Palmer of Childs Hill
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)
I intervene only because the whole debate on these amendments seems to dwell on what a public authority is. We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Maude, about the Treasury and central government, but my version of public authority would come down to local authorities, which as far as I am aware are public authorities.
I will talk from experience because I was a councillor in the London Borough of Barnet for 28 years, and for the last four years of that I chaired its audit committee. To my mind, what is missing in the Bill and the amendments is the use of audit procedures, which exist in many public authorities. That is where the investigation should start, at the lowest cost and more effectively.
The noble Lord talks about HMRC. The reason why it failed is that the outside body that had this work subcontracted to it collected the low-hanging fruit. It collected the frauds that were easy to collect because there was money in the individuals, companies or organisations involved. I ask the Minister and her team to think about how to stop attacking only low-hanging fruit. It is the ones that are not dealt with by the existing organisations that we are looking at. Encourage local authorities to set a gold standard where they and anything like them will look at the situation internally and assess where the fraud is. At that stage, it may well be that they want to call in these organisations. The noble Lord, Lord Maude, says they perhaps should not be called in, but they should be if needed. We need to use the things that exist already. To me, the fact that the word “audit” does not appear anywhere here is a negative part of this measure.
Lord Maude of Horsham (Con)
The noble Lord’s point about what we mean when we talk of a public authority is really important. I make a distinction between entities that are part of central government—where the writ of the Cabinet Office and the Treasury should absolutely run without exception for these purposes—and the wider public sector. I believe in localism; local authorities should be responsible for what they do and have access to a centre of excellence of great capability in central government. But there should be a sharp distinction made between central government and the wider public sector.
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)
My Lords, I apologise; to some extent I moved onto what sounded more like a Second Reading speech, but it comes out of the comments that the noble Lord made. Not just central government bodies but other public bodies must use the investigatory powers, where they are already there, and bring in the heavy guns only when needed. So I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Maude, says.