Children and Families Bill

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Wednesday 29th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, as of August 2013, there were more than 235,000 children—nearly a quarter of a million children—living in households whose benefits have been cut because of the bedroom tax. We do not know how many children have had to move, disrupting their schooling—a point that has already been made—their friendships and the social networks which enable their parents to get by with childcare and other things. When I asked the Minister earlier today about the implications of this for the Government’s child poverty strategy, I did not get a direct answer. Inevitably, these families are being pushed further into poverty; there are no two ways about it.

There have been a number of reports in newspapers about the struggles that many families face trying to get by. I will not read all of them but simply read from the initial comments from the UN special rapporteur on adequate housing, who put the case very well. She said:

“The right to housing is not about a roof anywhere, at any cost, without any social ties. It is not about reshuffling people according to a snapshot of the number of bedrooms at a given night. It is about enabling environments for people to maintain their family and community bonds, their local schools, work places and health services allowing them to exercise all other rights, like education, work, food or health”.

She continued:

“Of the many testimonies I have heard, let me say that I have been deeply touched by persons with physical and mental disabilities who have felt targeted instead of protected; of the grandmothers who are carers of their children and grandchildren but are now feeling they are forced to move away from their life-long homes due to a spare bedroom or to run the risk of facing arrears; of the single parents who will not have space for their children when they come to visit; of the many people who are increasingly having to choose between food and paying the penalty. Those who are impacted by this policy were not necessarily the most vulnerable a few months ago, but they were on the margins, facing fragility and housing stress, with little extra income to respond to this situation and already barely coping with their expenses”.

The amendment will not solve the problem, but it will go some way to alleviate the problems that those families face. Families are really struggling as a result of this measure, and I hope that we can support the amendment to do something for some of those very vulnerable children.

[Lord Martin of Springburn (CB)]

My Lords, briefly, I agree with everything that has been said. There is often criticism in my native city of Glasgow that the housing estates are too big, but those of us who know those housing estates know that there are excellent communities within them. In fact, those of us who have lived in big cities think of them not as a big city but as a collection of villages and communities. Many of the housing estates that I know of and are excellent were built just after the war, when the soldiers came home from the forces. The families were regarded as big. I came from a family of five living in a tenement, and in those days that was a small family—there were families of eight or nine.

Noble Lords are right to say that there can be a big impact on children if they have to move away from the communities that they enjoy. Most of us have happy memories of the childhood communities we lived in and the support of the extended families who were there. We could end up taking young children out of their school, as has already been stated, and away from their community facilities into a strange area.

I go back to where I was raised in the city of Glasgow. If a family is in an underoccupied house, that can mean that the house has a garden and a back and front door, which is regarded as significant for a family. To go to the proper size of house that the Government suggest could mean that they are forced to take a tenement flat. It has a big impact on a young person to go from a house with a garden to a tenement flat.

When I have spoken to the Minister, he has been very courteous to me and told me that he will give me a reply on this matter, but he has always mentioned the waiting lists and how long they are. The implication is that, if you have a long waiting list, you will fill the vacant accommodation. That is not necessarily the case. Anyone who has been a constituency MP or a councillor will know that people will come to you to say, “I’ve been on the waiting list for 10 or 12 years”, but when you say, “I can get you a house tomorrow”, they say, “Oh, but I’m not taking a house in this area or that area; I want this particular area”. Those who are on the waiting list exercise a great element of choice.

I personally have no housing problem either in London or in Glasgow, but I dare say that, legally, there would be nothing to stop me going to the local housing association in Westminster and saying, “I want to put my name on the waiting list”. By the same token, I could do that in Glasgow. Being on a waiting list does not mean that the person on the list is in need. I do not think that the waiting list is necessarily the best measure to use when saying that we can solve the problems caused by people being forced out of their so-called underoccupied houses.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)]

My Lords, briefly, I think that the Minister has a choice when he responds to the amendment, which was so effectively moved by my noble friend. He can say either that children of a certain group—disabled children, children in poverty or whatever—are exempt from the application of the bedroom tax to the tenancy, or he can say, on the contrary, we will leave it to local authorities to exercise their discretion, so that the response you get is a lottery based on where you live, and you have all the problems associated with what is effectively means testing.

The advantage of the first path is that you can perfectly easily have ways of ensuring that certain families with children do not come into the category of the bedroom tax as such. You could say that children on disability living allowance, for example, would simply be exempt, but discretionary housing payments apply to other people, which may include disabled people and so on. If that is the way which the Minister wishes to go, that would be the clean and clear way to do it.

Care Bill [HL]

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I will speak primarily to Amendment 88, in the wider context of Clause 9, and put an idea to the Minister that dawned on me during conversations with local authorities that are faced with problems in this area. Clause 9 deals with the assessment of an adult’s needs for care and support. It states:

“Where it appears to a local authority that an adult may have needs for care and support, the authority must,”

carry out an assessment. The clause goes on to list what the assessment must include. Amendment 88 would add,

“housing options to contribute to the achievement of those outcomes”.

What struck me as an outsider looking into these matters is that, irrespective of the changes to which the noble Lord, Lord Rix, referred, problems still arise where elderly people—perhaps in their 80s, 90s or whatever—have to transfer out of their homes, which they may well own, or from hospital into some kind of care environment, perhaps a nursing home. I wonder whether it would be possible for that process to be made more seamless in circumstances where a local authority took on the responsibility of marketing—I shall come on to what I mean by “marketing”—the home for sale, clearing the home and making all the arrangements for the transfer of that resident, be it from their home or from hospital, into a care environment.

It may be that a local authority could offer a package. At the moment, that package, in part, is offered by some of the charities. I have spoken to charities, such as Age Concern, which carry out various components in this process of transfer but I wonder whether money could be raised by local authorities through taking a proportion of the commission on the sale of properties by estate agents. In other words, a local authority would advertise within its area and estate agents could tender for the right to handle the properties for which the local authority took responsibility in this process of seamlessly transferring people from their homes to a caring environment.

As estate agents would not necessarily know whether they would get that business if it was organised in the wider market, if they knew they were going to get all the business provided by the local authority—in other words, that they would be the estate agent responsible for carrying out the process of transfer in a particular district—they might be prepared to share their commissions with the local authority because they had access to business which they might not otherwise have had. It would provide a revenue stream.

As we introduce amendment after amendment to the Bill, I keep thinking, “Where is the money coming from?”. It has to come from somewhere. It is all right Parliament passing legislation placing all these new responsibilities on authorities but, at the end of the day, the local authority has to find a way of raising the revenue. If local authorities could somehow attach themselves to the revenue from the sale of houses, it might well provide an income stream—and what better way to do so than to provide a package for the seamless transfer of the elderly into a more caring environment? I put it simply as a proposition that the Minister might wish to consider over time.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, everyone supports these amendments. I do not wish to detain the House but I would like to add my voice to that support.

When I became a councillor in 1973, it was my duty to concern myself with the housing problems of constituents who lived in my ward. After seven years, when I became a Member of Parliament, I thought the housing problems would go to the councillor who took my place. That was not the case. Right up to my last week of being a Member of Parliament, I was still receiving housing complaints and problems. I recall in another life, when I was a member of the Labour Party, some of my friends saying, “Education, education, education”—that was the motto—but I said there should be something else: “Housing, housing, housing”.

If people do not live in decent homes, they will not be able to do anything. If dampness is coming down the walls, the brightest child will never be able to study properly and get the best out of his or her education. So I say to the Minister that sometimes it is the simple things that matter in housing, not the expensive things that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, has referred to.

I have mentioned dampness. There used to be a great deal of dampness in some of the houses in my area of Glasgow. A scheme was introduced—all credit to the Government, as it was not just the local authority —to bring in central heating. What a difference it made to the health of the young and old who lived in those houses. They could get up in the morning to a warm house and go to bed in the evening in a warm house. It meant that bronchitis, emphysema and all the other problems were greatly reduced.

Social Care: Apprenticeships

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Thursday 29th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I agree that quality in the apprenticeship programme is essential and the Government are committed to the pursuit of quality. The noble Baroness will know that from April next year the role of NICE is to be expanded to embrace social care, and no doubt it will focus on quality standards in that area. The care and support White Paper acknowledges the need to ensure that there are enough skilled people to deliver high-quality care in the future. We believe that expanding apprenticeships in social care will involve a continual driving up of the apprenticeship offer. To ensure high quality, all apprenticeships need to entail a rigorous period of learning and the practice of new skills under approved training providers. That involves a minimum of 12 months for a 16 to 18 year-old; it also applies to adult apprenticeships.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, will these apprenticeships be available to young boys and girls who perhaps do not have academic qualifications when they leave school?

[Earl Howe]

Yes, my Lords. Health and social care is the second largest area of apprenticeships in the country. We think that they provide a route for the young people the noble Lord has described to acquire skills and add to the capacity and capability of the social care workforce. They also provide a rung on the ladder to more senior positions in young people’s career progression.

NHS: Risk Register

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Tuesday 15th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend, and he is right. The risk assessment process, carried out by civil servants and detailed in these registers, is an integral part of the formulation and development of government policy. It is in the public interest that this process be as effective as possible. We are clear that where policy is sensitive, that necessitates confidentiality.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I take it that the decision that was made was a government decision, which was collective. I recall that the Deputy Prime Minister, before he became Deputy Prime Minister, was very keen on transparency. Was he therefore comfortable about the withholding of this information? If the noble Earl does not know, perhaps he could come back and let the House know.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the decision to exercise the veto, which is a decision provided for under the Freedom of information Act, was made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health. However, he would not have been able to exercise the veto without the collective approval of the Cabinet, and that approval was secured.

Health and Social Care Bill

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

I support the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Owen. I understand that he is saying, “Let us look at the reasons for saying that the risk register should be made public”. He understands that it must be done before Prorogation, so I am not entirely clear why the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, is saying that this will cause delay. I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, says—you do need to strike a balance between appropriate confidentiality in relation to what the Government do and the need for openness.

The Freedom of Information Act was passed so that it would not be government Ministers or civil servants who determined what was kept confidential but an independent tribunal. We have reached the position on this issue at which Professor Angel, who is regarded as probably the best chair of an information tribunal that there is, has struck the balance. Take it from me that Professor Angel very well understands the need for proper confidentiality in relation to government. He and his tribunal are not remotely people who would make everything public. They well understand that lots of government matters have to be kept under wraps for the purpose of good government. If a tribunal chaired by Professor Angel said that we should see this, and he reached that conclusion on the basis not of politics but of good government, my instincts are that we should listen more to what he said than noble Lords around this House who have an interest in trying to rush the Bill through. I am struck by the modesty of the amendment by my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Owen. It says that we should see what Professor Angel said before we reach a conclusion. I strongly urge the House to take that course.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I have sat for many hours with my noble friend Lord Owen on this Bill. We both have an appreciation of the health service that came from our parents. My noble friend’s father was a medical practitioner while my mother and grandmother spoke of how things were before the National Health Service came into being. I have no desire to do any disservice to the health service. In fact, in the amendments put before this House, I voted contrary to the wishes of the Government.

Yet, on this matter, there is a point that information passed between civil servants and their Ministers should be kept confidential. The argument has been put about the Information Commissioner. Is anyone suggesting that the Information Commissioner is doing something wrong? The answer is no. The Information Commissioner works from a piece of legislation that both our Houses gave him. That basically says that if information is in data—in written form—then it should be made public. What will now happen is that when Ministers go to get advice, they will not get written advice. Ministers and other high officers of state are entitled to advice from their civil servants or officials. They get confidential advice. Freedom of information does not cover all information, only written information. No one can force a Minister or any other officeholder to hand over information given orally. That is exactly what will happen now: information will be given orally. That is not helpful to the quality that we look for. When a civil servant or officer puts something down in a document, they give a lot of thought to it. As the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, said, there are several people behind that document when it is published. It is there for the Minister or officer to look at. On this matter, I cannot support my noble friend Lord Owen. I support the Government.

There was a previous debate on this matter. It was stated that the previous Labour Government should give the risk register for, I think, the third runway at Heathrow. Justine Greening was the MP who pushed for that. First, the Government did not hand over that information in a matter of minutes. It took a long time for them to hand it over. Secondly, this was leading up to a general election where parliamentary incumbents around Heathrow and parliamentary candidates in the Labour Party were deeply worried about that risk register.

I have been very supportive of my friends in the Labour Party, and they know that. In fact, I have a better voting record with the Labour Party than some of its card-carrying members. However, they should ask themselves when the road to Damascus came about. It did not come about two years ago. Every time I granted an Urgent Question to a Minister or to the House, there was a Minister complaining that they did not want to give information to the House but would rather give it to a television studio.

I have had a great deal of criticism—costly criticism—about going to an appeal, so I know about appeals.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, it is not just a question of the road to Damascus. When the Information Commissioner ruled about the Heathrow third runway we then made the report available. There is also one more difference I would point out to the noble Lord. At that time there was no Bill going before Parliament to which the risk register was pertinent. They are the two key differences that I wish to bring to the House’s attention.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

The noble Baroness makes a valid point but I am giving many examples of where certain individuals, such as some of her Cabinet colleagues, were not too keen about the Information Commissioner’s instructions to this House and the other House. She will know that. In fact, some of her fellow Cabinet colleagues came to me and said, “Good luck, we want you to appeal.”. I do not know whether it was discussed in Cabinet but I know that the sparks started flying. What do they say about failure? Failure is an orphan.

I will not go down that road too far except to say that it certainly has been a road to Damascus. There have been a lot of decisions by the Information Commissioner that the noble Baroness and her Cabinet colleagues did not want. I am prepared to put them down item by item and to tell her about the Cabinet Ministers, some at very high level, who were prepared to go against an Information Commissioner’s decision.

[Noble Lords]

On a Bill?

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

Not on a Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Owen, says it is not about the Bill; he says we should wait for the Bill until we get an appeal decision. If people are opposing an Information Commissioner’s decision, it still has consequences for legislation whether it applies to a Bill or not. Let us not kid ourselves. It may not apply to a Bill but on other pieces of business, the Minister concerned is going to say, “Give me that information orally—I do not want anything at all in writing”. Information Commissioners have gone on record to say that if information is in data they want to release it.

Health and Social Care Bill

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

Of course, I acknowledge the point made by the noble Lord. It is a matter of regret to me that the commentary on the Bill hardly ever focuses on the proposals it makes for public health, which have generally commanded widespread approval. However, I recognise that there are concerns around the detail of those proposals. That is why we are here as a Chamber to address those concerns. I am sure that when we come to the amendments referred to by the noble Lord, this House will not be found wanting in the way that it explores those issues and resolves them.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

The noble Earl has repeated a Statement made in the other House by a Cabinet Minister responsible for health. We have also heard mention of the Deputy Prime Minister supporting the noble Baroness’s amendments. The Deputy Prime Minister is clearly a Cabinet Minister. Therefore, we have two Cabinet Ministers in the picture. If everyone is so enthusiastic about the Liberal Democrat amendments —the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, was kind enough to tell us that those follow her proposals, and imitation is the best form of flattery—does it mean that everybody is happy? However, the only piece of the jigsaw that I am concerned about is whether that means that the Conservative Party will support the relevant amendments. If that is the case, they will all go through on the nod and everybody will be happy. Perhaps the noble Earl can tell me whether I am wrong and I have missed something.

[Earl Howe]

Far be it from me to say that the noble Lord, Lord Martin, would ever miss anything; he is too wise a head for that. I see nothing strange or amiss in a party leader wishing to address his parliamentary colleagues on the eve of a party conference to bring them up to date on a major Bill and its progress in the House and to set out some of the remaining concerns that he has that we need to settle. These concerns came as no news to me as I have been talking about them regularly not only with Liberal Democrat colleagues but with other Members of your Lordships' House and members of the medical profession. I see nothing amiss in the letter spelling out those concerns. How we arrive at a resolution of those issues is yet to be seen. As I have said, amendments have already been tabled which we shall debate. It is possible that more will be tabled over the days ahead—I do not rule that out at all. However, the noble Lord should not forget that there are non-legislative ways of reaching the destination that some of my noble friends would like to get to. There are many ways of achieving some of these objectives. It is entirely possible that we shall agree amendments to do that but that is not by any means the only course open to us.

Health and Social Care Bill

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I hope that it would be possible for the decision to be available at the beginning of Report stage.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I have listened carefully to what all noble Lords have said. I was interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, had to say. He often advises me on legal matters, so perhaps he can advise me further. If the information comes to us as an open House, it will be public information. Therefore, to say that it comes before noble Lords means that it becomes available to everyone.

[Noble Lords]

Yes.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

That is fine. I am learning every moment. The amendment states that,

“this House regrets the Government’s appeal against the Information Commissioner’s ruling”.

It makes no criticism of the Minister; there is nothing personal here. I am a trade unionist but I was formerly a full-time trade union official and also a lay magistrate for a very short time. My training taught me not to worry about the decisions that I made, whether they were judicial or semi-judicial, as there was an appeals procedure. The Government are exercising an appeals procedure. We go down a dangerous road if we criticise anyone—whether it be the Government or a private individual—for exercising an appeals procedure. An appeals procedure is a good, safe mechanism for everyone concerned. The wording of the amendment worries me because an appeals procedure is there to be used. The only thing I ask of the Minister is to say that it is being used as a mechanism for achieving clarity with regard to the Information Commissioner’s decision rather than as a stalling mechanism to prevent the Opposition getting the information. If the appeals procedure were being used as a stalling mechanism, I would feel aggrieved as that would be the wrong thing to do.

I do not think that anyone can brag about the Heathrow decision. It took a year to release the information so there is nothing to brag about. The Government have greatly encouraged the appealing of information commissioners’ decisions on other occasions and there were many occasions when the previous Government did not want to abide by an information commissioner’s decision. I do not know much about the risk reports that are being discussed but I understand that they constitute officials’ information given privately to the Minister concerned. If I am wrong, noble Lords will correct me. I was never a Minister but former Cabinet Ministers are present and the noble Baroness who moved the amendment is a former Minister. I would be deeply concerned if officials were unable to give information or advice in writing in the privacy of a Minister’s office in case it was deemed to constitute data which had to be produced in the public domain. If that were the case, officials would not provide that information. I worry about that.

I know how important the National Health Service is. Like many others in this House, I was brought up in a household where I was taught to appreciate the National Health Service. However, this has implications for advice given by officials to Ministers. As I say, I am worried about the implications for that advice.

The amendment uses the word “regrets”. It is a serious matter to me to express regret and to put it in terms of a Motion before the House. Let us not kid ourselves about the Information Commissioner doing a nice balancing act, looking at both sides and weighing up the public interest and the Government’s interest. All too often, the Information Commissioner has said that it is in the legislation and therefore it is going into the public domain no matter what the consequences are. If there had been a wee bit more work put into the legislation years ago, we might not be standing here today concerning ourselves with an Information Commissioner’s decision.