Informal European Council

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Prime Minister has been extremely clear to both President Putin and, indeed, the President of the United States that our relationship with Russia cannot be business as usual, as a result of its actions in Ukraine and Syria. Where there are issues that we disagree on, we should hold Russia to account, but we also need to have hard-headed engagement where we can move forward. As the Prime Minister was very clear and said to the President, we need to engage but beware.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, can I clear up a small point? I notice in the printed version of the Statement—or the Statement from the other place—that in “Global Britain” the “Global” is in upper case. Is this a renaming of Great Britain, a typo or more of a marketing slogan like “Cool Britannia”? On a more substantial point, I am glad that the EU recognises that Libya is the place in which refugees and migrants should be concentrated so they can be properly assessed and helped as necessary. The crucial thing in my plan, which I produced in 2015 and have subsequently mentioned, is that there should be a military presence of NATO to protect these people and make sure that they are not ill-treated in Libya. I hope that the military presence would be United Nations sanctioned, with NATO in blue helmets, through a Security Council resolution because, without that, the ideas that the EU is floating about Libya could end in disaster.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I assure my noble friend that the UK is working with the international community to support the Government of National Accord’s efforts to deliver security and stability for the Libyan people and to tackle the flow of illegal migrants through Libya. We have allocated more than £10.5 million this year for assistance to Libya and technical support to its Government.

G20 Summit

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have said on a number of occasions during these questions, our priority is to regain control of the number of people who come here from Europe but also to allow British companies to trade with a single market in goods and services. We will not give a running commentary on negotiations.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I note that the Prime Minister said that we will not shy away from dealing with illegal immigrants. Do the Government now recognise that the rate of immigration into Europe has become wholly unsustainable and that the EU’s system of quotas is not working because it has been completely ignored, and that a new approach is needed? Will my noble friend encourage the Prime Minister to take to the UN in America my proposal for having an area of desert, probably in north Africa, designated for the reception of all immigrants, where they can be sorted out and dealt with?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have said, the G20 summit focused on the need to develop a sustainable framework for the global management of migration. I am not sure that the President of the United States will particularly listen to me.

Syria: UK Military Action

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, we are debating a largely symbolic extension of one of the longest-running conflicts in history—the global civil war between the Sunni and Shia factions of Islam that started with the death of the Prophet in 632.

However, I believe the Government’s Motion is morally and militarily justified, with the security of the UK being directly threatened. It makes no military sense to recognise a frontier that ISIL does not. Whether it is expedient is another matter. Where is the strategy? We are told that, with coalition air support, there are 70,000 moderate Muslim fighters ready to take territory from ISIL/Daesh. Will such a force materialise? In July 2006, I visited Afghanistan during Operation Panther’s Claw against the Taliban in Helmand. We were told there were already more than 90,000 trained members of the new Afghan army ready for battle. Yet in Panther’s Claw, with 15,000 coalition forces in action, fewer than 1,000 Afghan troops took to the battlefield.

No definition has been given of moderate. I offer one. A moderate Muslim is one who recognises and accepts that nation states are best governed by secular Governments who make the laws according to the needs of their citizens in the context of today’s world, with these laws being interpreted and applied by an independent judiciary. A Muslim jihadist fights for a theocracy in which clerics apply and enforce Sharia law, based on texts dating back to the eighth century.

I fear that some of our closest allies in this war are far from reliable as members of a coalition to destroy ISIL/Daesh. For more than three decades, the Saudis, supported by the Qataris, have financed the spread throughout the Sunni world and beyond of the malevolent influence of Salafist Wahhabism. ISIL/Daesh, and the other Islamist terror organisations, justify their actions by that credo.

Do the Saudis really want to destroy ISIL? The New York Times of 25 November, based on an interview with Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the Saudi Minister of Defence and Deputy Crown Prince, suggests that the prince believes that ISIS is,

“a counterreaction to the brutalization of Iraqi Sunnis by the Iranian-directed Shiite-led government in Baghdad of Nouri al-Maliki and to the crushing of Syrian Sunnis by the Iranian-backed government in Damascus”.

The Saudis, and certainly their clerics, see the removal of President Bashar al-Assad as a higher priority than the defeat of ISIL.

Of Turkey, too, I have doubts. There are convincing reports that Turkey’s political leaders and their families have been enriching themselves by trading in oil stolen by ISIL from Syria. The Turks certainly do not see ISIL as one of their top priorities. Those are to thump the Kurds and to get rid of Assad. I am glad that the Prime Minister has made it quite clear that our military assets will not be used against Assad or his army or in support of rebel operations against them. We shall find that Assad has to have a role in Syria for as long as we can predict.

When the Prime Minister listed,

“all the key regional players around the table”,—[Official Report, Commons, 26/11/15; col.1492.]

in Vienna on 14 November, he omitted one country: Egypt. Yet President Sisi is doing in Egypt what we want to see in Syria: establishing, in an Arab state, a secular Government tolerant of all religions on the road to democracy. There has been much talk of boots on the ground. Egypt has an army of 500,000, of which Sisi was commander-in-chief before he became President. When the Prime Minister met Sisi on 5 November, did he discuss the possibility of Egyptian forces being used against ISIL/Daesh in Syria and Iraq?

Syria: Foreign Affairs Committee Report

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Thursday 26th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I have been clear that our proposal is about providing air support to existing ground forces. We are doing it this way because we think this is one of the key lessons that we learned from previous military interventions over the last decade or so. So no, this is about local ground forces that are already there.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I thought that the Prime Minister was making an absolutely clear distinction between military action against ISIS and the desire that the Government have to see the end of Assad. But as the Statement progressed, I felt that there was more and more confusion between the two. I was particularly concerned when my noble friend, in answer to a question from the Opposition Front Bench, said that we have to help the anti-Assad forces to make progress. Can she reassure me that in no circumstances will British military action be taken to help the anti-Assad forces make progress against Assad?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Forgive me if I was not clear, but the point I was trying to make is that the moderate opposition forces are the forces that are also fighting ISIL. They are fighting two fronts. When I say that, the point I am trying to make is that these are people who are in opposition to Assad. They are not his people; they are the moderates. They are the people who he has been trying to attack; he does not want them there because they are a threat to him continuing. ISIL is also attacking the moderates. The moderates are under attack on all fronts, but they are the only forces on the ground that are actively attacking ISIL.

Tunisia and European Council

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Monday 29th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right that Tunisia is a great example of a country which is trying to provide the kind of future, prosperity and hope to its citizens that we want others in the area to see as a possible way forward. For that reason, it is important that we support it in its endeavours, and that is most definitely what we intend to do.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I believe that the Prime Minister is right, as he said this morning on Radio 4, to compare the threat from Islamist terrorism with that from communism during the Cold War. Then, one of the most useful defence mechanisms that we had was enhanced positive vetting of all those in sensitive posts. First, will my noble friend assure us that the Government will make full use of positive vetting for all those who are responsible for the protection of our borders? Secondly, will the Government review the practice of using non-British local people to process visa applications in countries such as Nigeria?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am not familiar with the detail of the processes that are in place these days for vetting staff. However, I am confident that there is appropriate vetting of any individual who is employed by this Government, wherever they are based, to ensure that they have the appropriate clearance for the task they are given. As to my noble friend’s point about non-British nationals being locally engaged in embassies to carry out entry clearance for visas and that sort of thing, again, I would imagine that there is no reason to doubt the processes involved in recruiting local personnel.

Iraq

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Friday 26th September 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I am glad that the Government are proposing to strengthen our homeland security. There is much that can be done. Indeed, I have been urging certain actions, which have become much more relevant now, on the Government for many years. Part of today’s problem stems from western naivety to the Arab spring and, as has been mentioned, the longstanding hypocrisy to the cruel Wahhabi theocracy in Saudi Arabia. I believe that we have been on the wrong side over Syria from the start. A number of noble Lords have questioned whether it is sensible for the new military strategy—I can see why at the moment it has to be so—to be confined to Iraq.

Egypt, the largest Arab nation, is central to the problem we face and perhaps is a key to its resolution. In February and in June, I was part of two all-party groups to Egypt and we met President Sisi, as he now is, on both occasions. We met him for two and a half hours on the first occasion and for an hour and a half on the second. Two days ago, President Sisi, in a notable speech to the UN, said:

“Our aim is to build a ‘New Egypt’ … A state that respects and enforces the rule of law, guarantees freedom of opinion for all and ensures freedom of belief and worship to its people. A state that is determined to achieve growth, prosperity, and a promising future that meets the aspirations of its people”.

That is a notable aim for a secular state with democratic characteristics—a noble aim, but one that is hard to achieve.

I understand that President Sisi had a productive meeting with Prime Minister Cameron in New York this week. We need to follow that up. I suggest that arrangements be made for President Sisi to visit London with some of his colleagues at an early date for detailed discussions with Prime Minister Cameron and other British leaders and experts on how the UK can help to build the new Egypt.

The Egyptian economy is crucial and it needs massive restructuring. Egypt needs technical help on how to do this, particularly on reducing the distorting subsidies and on producing an equitable tax system on which the Egyptian business community must support President Sisi. Egypt has shown that the first priority should be to replace theocracy with secular government. Let us hope that President Sisi turns out to be an Ataturk for his country. Theocracy is not only the antithesis of democracy but, when based on political Islam, can lead to the cruel and uncompromising dictatorship represented by ISIS.

Ukraine (Shooting Down of MH17) and Gaza

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As regards what has happened over the past few days, there was a meeting last week of the European Council where it was agreed that further steps were necessary in terms of strengthening sanctions. That decision was taken before the tragic incident on Thursday. We have been talking to our European partners throughout the weekend and have had extensive discussions. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary will work very hard to ensure that there is clarity tomorrow and that further steps are taken in accordance with what I have already said we believe is necessary—to force Russia to withdraw and de-escalate.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, on the—

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, on Russia, I welcome the Prime Minister’s suggestion that it is time to make our power, influence and resources felt. May I make a practical and proportionate suggestion that one measure would be to suspend all civil air flights to and from Russia? Ideally, this would cover the whole EU and the USA. Although, Mr Putin would, of course, find methods to fly people in and out of Russia, it would be at a heavy cost, both economically and in terms of Russia’s status in the world.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I take note of the proposal put forward by my noble friend. I do not believe that that is one of the specific steps that we are currently considering but I am happy to talk further to him about his idea.

EU Council

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I completely understand the points that my noble friend makes. Those are very alive in the minds of our Ministers and officials negotiating this because they are keen to safeguard the position that my noble friend sets out very clearly.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I was very glad to see in the Statement the sentence:

“Deregulation is now part of the EU agenda in a way that it simply has not been before”.

I noted the distinguished membership of the meeting chaired by the Prime Minister on the Business Task Force report, including President Barroso and the leading countries in Europe. There was a startling and very prominent absence from that list of countries, which was France. Would I be right in thinking that part of the reason for France’s absence is that it does not share our approach on this matter at all? The biggest single bit of business regulation—and I would argue the most unjustified—that the French go in for is the 35-hour week, which is policed by a mixture of inspection and denunciation, which must be very bad for the business sector in France. Perhaps, in that sense, a bit of schadenfreude might be in order, but I do not express it. I say that it is wrong that the EU, if it means anything on these matters, should have such an example of business regulation.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My noble friend is right that the French approach things differently from us. When he talks of schadenfreude, the point to which I would refer him is the fact the Germans were there at the Prime Minister’s launch. Those who have, like my noble friend, studied the dynamic within Europe over a very long period of time would recognise the relationship between the UK and Germany. The work that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has put into trying to strengthen that relationship is an important part of helping to counterbalance some of the views held by other member states to which my noble friend refers.

Death of a Member: Baroness Thatcher

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Wednesday 10th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I suppose that one thing that one thinks most about Margaret Thatcher is that she was the most courageous challenger. One reason why I think she will have an increasing part in the history books is that she presided over and contributed to the ending of one of the great political struggles in this country: the struggle between capitalism and socialism as economic systems.

Margaret Thatcher could always see the real point. For three and a half years, I was in Whitehall as an adviser and worked a certain amount with a think tank. I remember well that, on one occasion, the presentation made at Chequers by the think tank was to show where the Government were going, even if they did not want to go there. I remember that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, was demonstrating the way in which inflation would reach unthinkable double digits. There was a silence, broken by Margaret Thatcher thumping on her blotter at the Cabinet table in Chequers, saying, “If that chart is true, we have lost the next election”. Then Tony Barber, who was the Chancellor at the time, waded in to say that it was not true—but of course it was.

I point out to the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, who said what a pity it was that Margaret Thatcher had not tried to talk more to the union leaders, that no one could have tried harder to talk to the union leaders than Ted Heath. Indeed, we had something called tripartite government, which was government, industry and unions. A fat lot of good that did.

After the 1974 election, I used, as a fonctionnaire, to attend meetings of the shadow Cabinet. They were very difficult meetings because Mr Heath did not accept that he had made mistakes and that things had to change. He and Sir Keith Joseph used to spar. I remember, on one occasion, Ted Heath saying to Keith Joseph, “I suppose that you’d let British Leyland go to the wall”. Keith Joseph said, “Of course I would, if it could not put its house in order”. Ted replied, “In that case, you would have blood on the streets”. It was all awkward and difficult. As the shadow Cabinet left the room, I was following behind, when Margaret Thatcher came up to me and said, “Mark, you know, Keith has nearly had enough, and the day he goes, I go”. It was basically from that moment that she realised the need to make a challenge that had never previously been made.

I was struck by the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Soley, about the unions. Of course there was huge variation. Some union leaders were people of great patriotism who did a wonderful job, but there were others, often in powerful positions, who used their position not in the interests of their members but to lead them over the economic cliff, often into economic suicide and unemployment. In British Leyland, Red Robbo was leading the union. It was a hopeless system. Now, as a result of restructuring, we once again have a great automobile industry in this country. We could never have done that if that challenge had not been made.

I would describe one of Margaret Thatcher’s great contributions as being to what I call liberation politics. She liberated a lot of people who had had no prospects because they were in the proletariat herd. She hugely enlarged the middle class—the bourgeoisie—of this country. As a result of the structural changes that she introduced, we are a much more equal society than we were then. Far more people—tens or hundreds of thousands of people—now have the opportunity to run their own lives in a way that they did not have before she was around and was Prime Minister.

Parliament Square (Management) Bill [HL]

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Marlesford]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I have no intention of seeking to delay this piece of legislation, but I would like some assurances from the Minister. This is obviously a beautiful square, which was greatly enhanced by the cleaning up of the stonework at Westminster Abbey, and of the stonework and the creation of the visitors’ centre here at the Palace of Westminster. However, approximately 10 years ago, the Home Office promised and delivered a Bill through both Houses which stated that it would stop the permanent encampment of people like the late Mr Brian Haw in the square. He turned the square into an absolute eyesore and indeed a health hazard. All sorts of strange things happened at that place because of his permanent encampment. Every time that the police acted on the legislation that was introduced by the Home Office, a judge—and I make no criticism of the judges—duly instructed them to put Mr Haw’s dirty and unsightly equipment back on to the square, facing the House of Commons, where visitors from all over the world would turn up. It was a disgraceful situation.