Renewable Heat Incentive (Amendment to the Energy Act 2008) Regulations 2011
Debate between Lord Marland and Duke of Montrose
Lord Marland
As always with the excellent merry band that we have debating this subject of energy and climate change, we have had some very valuable comments. I am always grateful to my noble friend Lord Teverson for his representation of the landscape and for the compliments that he has made. It is a great boost to have him so supportive. He raised one specific issue in regard to the pilot scheme for domestic. That is happening this summer. If he will forgive me, I will not go into the details of it right now but, as always, I will make officials available to explain what is happening and to keep noble Lords in touch with the process as it goes on.
My noble friend the Duke of Montrose, as a true Scotsman, was very keen to check that, as a Scotsman, he was not having to pay the bill but that the English were, and, reluctantly, I have to tell him that HM Treasury is paying the bill.
The Duke of Montrose
I hope it is the United Kingdom that is paying the Bill. I cannot see why it should be England.
Lord Marland
That is a debate for later. I think that the noble Duke roughly knew the direction of travel that I was coming from. However, we were interested to hear about his great estates and restaurant business. When I am up in that part of Scotland, I may pop in to sample the fare. The restaurant probably serves his beef. That would be excellent. We know that he is not involved in the peat business because he was very pleased that peat was excluded. I confirm that and thank him, as always, for his contribution.
I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, who described me as slinky, that it takes one to know one. As I have admired her slinky movements round the House, I am delighted to see that she is no longer impeded by having a foot in plaster and has her dancing shoes well and truly on. I thank her for giving me advance warning of some of her questions and for the great support on this subject. That is not surprising as the renewal heat incentive was kick-started by the previous Government and we are happy to take action on it.
The noble Baroness makes a very good point about the budget. She knows as well as I do that dealing with the Treasury is not always the easiest thing on earth. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for congratulating us on getting the money from the Treasury. We cannot push our luck too far with the Treasury, but I totally understand where the noble Baroness is coming from. Despite the fact that each year is a cut-off point, people who started after 1 July 2009 will now be able to apply for RHI—we are going back further. There is effectively a six-month period when we can backdate RHI into another financial year, provided that the relevant person has completed his accreditation. It may well have taken five or six months to process but we can backdate the funding to the date of accreditation which, of course, may go back to a previous year. I hope that that gives the noble Baroness hope that there is an element of flexibility, although not perhaps as much as she would like. Reluctantly, I occasionally have to say no to her—I know that she is not used to it—but that is as far as we can go. I wipe the sweat off my brow in relief at not having to go back and challenge the Treasury again on this difficult subject.
Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Access to Infrastructure) Regulations 2011
Debate between Lord Marland and Duke of Montrose
Lord Marland
I did not actually say it was liquid. I said it was more liquid than gas. Denser carbon dioxide will be moved down the pipes. It is readily identifiable as a subject because, as the right reverend Prelate will know as a great scientist, you cannot touch carbon dioxide.
The right reverend Prelate made another point about storage. We are reliably informed that there will not be leakage. We have to take every precaution to make sure that there will not be leakage and must make sure that all adequate precautions are taken. Of course, this is a demonstration project. We are moving into unfounded territory and who knows what the outcome will be. It is very important that we have rigorously tested the programme, but it is a demonstration project. I will not comment on the outcome of the demonstration project at the moment because the intense negotiations finish on Friday. We remain optimistic.
The Duke of Montrose
While my noble friend is on the subject of the demonstration project, I know that oil companies in the United States purchase carbon dioxide to increase the output of their oil wells. Are Shell and other firms gaining a financial benefit from this operation by taking the carbon dioxide in this demonstration project and putting it into an oil field? Is it a win-win situation so far as they are concerned?
Lord Marland
That is certainly not the intention. There may be residual oil in an empty oil well, but it is not the driver for them carrying out this process. However, I am grateful to the noble Duke for informing us of that.
The right reverend Prelate asked whether we know whether CCS will be commercially viable. Until we have done the first demonstration, we do not know whether we can do it on a large scale. If we achieve it on a large scale, economies of scale will come into play, and we hope it will become commercially viable. In answer to his subsidy question, that is why the Government have committed £1 billion of capital expenditure to try to make the first demonstrator work. The right reverend Prelate made a very good point about the future of coal. As he said, we are reliant on coal. It is not our intention to rid ourselves of coal but to make it cleaner within a low-carbon economy. As a scientist, he will know that they will have to put in NOx cleaning systems in 2016 and 2017 to make coal cleaner. He is probably the only person in this Room who knows what the effect is, and I will not pretend to go into detail with him on it.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, kindly gave me some prior notice of her questions. She made two very good points and, if I am honest, I am not completely satisfied in my mind that I have the right answers to them. At what point does a Minister intervene? Should a Minister intervene? What is the reasonable time that should be allowed? In her own words, let us hope that it does not come to that. However, at some point you have to have an ultimate arbiter. At some point it is reasonable to think that the ultimate arbiter should be the Minister, in which case it is reasonable that at some point the Minister would intervene. Should we put a time limit on a dispute? I tend to agree that we should, but if we are too prescriptive about it, we may force the thing in the wrong direction. I will take away those points to consider in the department to see whether there is a straighter edge to put on those two excellent suggestions.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Marland and Duke of Montrose(13 years, 11 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Marland
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Deben, for his remarks and to others for the remarks that they have made. Before we start, to get us on the right footing, I would like to say that his excellent remarks about Amendment 20PA and subsection (1)(b)(ii) are very well made. Of course we will consider his comments, take them away and see how best we can improve matters. I am very grateful that he and the noble Baroness have drawn our attention to that particular issue, because these things do need tightening up.
On Amendment 20Q—some of this was answered by my noble friend Lord Deben—I agree with my noble friend Lady Noakes that it is an admission of failure for Government to regulate. That is a primary tenet of this Government, as my noble friend Lord Deben has said. If we cannot encourage people through these actions to participate in this opportunity—this great opportunity—then we will have failed and we will, therefore, have to regulate accordingly. However, as I said earlier, regulation is made on the basis that we have a “one in, one out”, arrangement, so we will have to look at the matter very carefully. I am not into “what if” scenarios about ideology, but I think that Government have quite a strong track record of choosing someone to do a review. That individual has to withstand the brickbats and the challenges of both Houses as to whether they are competent or going to give fair reason. Of course we must remind ourselves, as we do periodically, that the Green Deal will be a market-led product. We have to have confidence in the market without imposing too much regulation if the people involved are to be the proponents of the market. On that basis, I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, to consider withdrawing her amendment.
Amendments 20PA, 20P and 20Q would impact on the preconditions ahead of a Secretary of State being able to make these regulations. The Secretary of State will be able to make regulations only following publication of the review and only if he considers that the regulations are necessary to improve the energy efficiency of domestic private rented properties and would not decrease the number of properties available for rent. That is the framework that I mentioned earlier.
I hope that that largely covers the questions that have been asked. I invite noble Lords to withdraw their amendments.
The Duke of Montrose
My Lords, although I have not participated greatly, I have attended quite a few of the Committee’s meetings. The Minister says that he will take away and consider issues such as those raised by my noble friend Lord Deben. With the great efficiency of this Committee, we are presently discussing the clauses to do with England and Wales, but exactly mirroring clauses, which are word for word the same, later extend the provisions to Scotland. However, nobody has thought to extend their amendments into that same text, but no doubt the Minister will consider—
The Duke of Montrose
Well, I have said that it is highly efficient to consider these matters at the same time.
Lord Marland
Perhaps I should clarify that the authorities in Scotland will and can do whatever they want with their own powers. We are acting only as a facilitator for them to consider enacting those powers. I hope that that clarifies the matter for the noble Duke.
Energy: Climate Change
Debate between Lord Marland and Duke of Montrose
The Duke of Montrose
My Lords, an enormous amount of questions have been put to my noble friend. Will he write to noble Lords with the answer to any point he may not have covered?
Lord Marland
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Duke of Montrose, but I have answered a lot of questions. However, if any are unanswered that I can answer, as I pointed out earlier, I will answer them. However, I do not see the point when we are about to have a considerable lock-in on the energy Bill and various debates, which will provide answers to these questions. However, if noble Lords feel that their questions have not been adequately answered in this exhaustive debate, I shall be happy to write to them.