Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Marland and Baroness Noakes

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Marland]

The noble Baroness said that she had been put on the spot by a fellow Liberal Democrat Peer, which I do not think has happened too often, so I am very grateful that she should now have clarified these matters. It is very good for the Liberal Democrat Party that its members are now singing from the same hymn sheet. They were only not doing so temporarily—it was a momentary thing. I hope that, on that basis and the fact that we have debated this issue for quite some time, the noble Baronesses, Lady Noakes and Lady Maddock, will withdraw their amendments.

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, as I have not moved my amendment, I cannot possibly withdraw it. I believe that the Minister set out the issues that emerged from our debates on a previous Committee day that he intended to take forward in this chapter of the Bill. However, he omitted to say that we had tried to tease out how the structure of the provisions for the private rented sector fitted with the requirement for tenants to be involved in decisions on whether or not Green Deals could be used. As this chapter is predicated on finance being used by Green Deal or energy company obligations, we discussed whether obligations could be imposed on the landlord beyond that, given the powers that were potentially being enabled via regulations. The Minister did not mention that as a topic to be taken away, but I certainly had a feeling in Monday’s Committee that it was not well articulated and that there seemed to be gaps. If there were gaps, we might want to come back on Report with amendments to make it clear what the extent of those powers were.

[Lord Marland]

The noble Baroness is right: I think that that debate showed that there are gaps. That is why I prefaced my opening remarks by saying that we have to take away a number of issues—that is the whole point of Committee—and we shall be looking at whether we can improve those gaps, as we are committed to doing. From my point of view, it was an extremely useful and valuable debate, and I assure the Committee that we will be taking those issues away.

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[Baroness Noakes]

The Minister referred to an excellent summary that had been placed in the Library. Judging by the looks of incomprehension around me and my own lack of knowledge, this may not be widely available to the Committee. It certainly does not appear to be in the documents that are available to the Committee at the back. I am not sure that it will answer the questions raised by these amendments but I just note that there does not appear to be a wide knowledge of it.

[Lord Marland]

I fear that the noble Baroness may be in a small minority on this. I have just sent someone to the Library to get the document. It is there and I see my noble friend Lord Teverson has it. When we launched this Bill the document was attached. I do not want to get into semantics but I am happy for the noble Baroness to be provided with a copy now so that she can read it. I agree that my department produces an awful lot of information, which shows its willingness to be transparent. Perhaps the document could be passed to the noble Baroness; I am sorry that it is a photocopy. I have just sent someone to the Library to check that it is there. The noble Baroness seems confused. I hope the document is satisfactory.

[Baroness Noakes]

I have now seen the document and it gives virtually no information.

[Lord Marland]

That is a matter of opinion. That is the opinion of the noble Baroness, but I find the document quite informative, as I know many others do. We will disagree on that.

The reality is that we must, in tabling the Green Deal, look at all the ancillary events that come alongside it. We are trying to improve and work towards reducing fuel poverty. That is why we are embarking on, effectively, a review of CERT to make it better. CERT was a very good initiative and endeavour but it did not hit the targets to the extent that was needed. It had several misadventures, including too many light bulbs appearing on people’s doorsteps. Therefore, the ECO will be a development on that theme.

We consider the views of this House very carefully. If we did not, we would not be starting this Bill here, as we have done. We would not be entering into very long debates on every aspect of it before it gets to the House of Commons. We would not be taking away the comments of everyone in this Room to think about in between sessions and when we get to the next stage. I think that is a genuine commitment by this Government to listen, to improve and to get things fit for purpose. I hope this satisfies those people who have raised these points.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Marland and Baroness Noakes

Monday 24th January 2011 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland)]

My Lords, I welcome back the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and hope that she is well. I hope that all noble Lords have had an agreeable weekend. We will now carry on with the Energy Bill.

The amendments in this group would affect a number of orders, including those that define qualifying energy improvements and eligible properties. We need to strike the right balance between normal administrative functions and parliamentary scrutiny of the criteria by which administrators exercise their functions. I am very grateful to my noble friends Lady Noakes and Lord Jenkin of Roding for tabling their amendments. However, we need to ensure that the amendments have the intended effect in law. Therefore, we will warmly and favourably consider the amendments and all the recommendations of the Delegated Powers Committee.

I hope that honourable Members have found my explanation reassuring and will not press their amendments.

[Baroness Noakes]

With the proviso that I am a noble, rather than an “honourable”, Member, I am grateful to the Minister for warmly considering my amendments. I hope that that warmth will extend to action on Report and I assure him that, if he does not take action, we will return to the matter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Marland]

I will deal first with the point made by my noble friend Lady Noakes. There is a limit to how much one can inform. Clearly, there is a greater emphasis on the private rented sector to inform. If we find that the sector is not informing people, we will bring that to attention under the review. I hope that that deals with the point.

I am not sure of the direction of the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. Perhaps I could also deal with that at a later point.

[Baroness Noakes]

I am sorry. Possibly my noble friend has said that this might be looked at, but the point is not specified in Clause 36(5). I tabled Amendment 20L to see whether that should be specified, so that the matter would be covered. The Minister sort of said that it would be covered, but it is not covered in Clause 36, so I am still struggling on whether the Government think it important that landlords of public rented sector properties are aware of the financial assistance. As I pointed out, there is a big difference between financial assistance being available and people being aware of it, in particular if Green Deal providers do not target private sector landlords because of the difficulties.

[Lord Marland]

I think that I understand the question, so it may be the second question that I do not understand. If we are talking about awareness, it is incumbent on the private rented sector to make people aware. It is also incumbent on the Government to make people aware of the range of assistance available under the Green Deal. If there has been no—or not enough—positive action, the review will endeavour to make the necessary adjustments to make sure that that action is provided to communicate the information that is required. This set of opportunities should be widely known about. This is a very new initiative that, as I understand it, virtually everyone in property knows is about to happen. If we feel that the information is not being passed on, obviously we should take action.

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[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, we have had an interesting debate, with differing views on the most important factors, including whether we should press on quickly or make sure that we are very clear about whether regulatory action is required. The purpose of amendments is not to say that the Government should not, for example, communicate with landlords in the rented sector to ensure that, so far as possible, they are encouraged to act. My concern is to ensure that regulation is not rushed into. There is a danger that the Minister's rather gung-ho approach will be replicated across the whole of his department. I fear that precipitate action may be taken in this area.

[Lord Marland]

I slightly object to it being called a gung-ho approach. It is a very measured approach that has taken a lot of time. I am saying merely that a timetable should be available, that we should stick to it and that we should send out the right signals to the market.

[Baroness Noakes]

I will withdraw the word “gung-ho”, but perhaps not the sentiment. The Minister seems to be rushing towards action, particularly regulatory action, rather than focusing on the outcomes that are required. The need to take regulatory action would be a failure on the part of the Government. This early timetable will allow Ministers to be put under pressure by those who think that much tougher regulatory action should be taken much faster. That would not be the best approach in this area. The points of my noble friend Lord Jenkin were well made. As the noble Lord, Lord Best, pointed out, the rented sector is very complex, with a large number of different players who are not easily reached through organised groupings. Therefore, action in this sector will be particularly difficult. That is another reason for a longer timetable.

[Lord Marland]

Perhaps I may clarify one point for the noble Baroness. There are fundamental differences between reviews and regulations. It is important that we do not confuse them. What the Bill states is that there will not be any regulation before 2015. We will simply review the activity that has gone on in the market up to the end of 2013 in order to see what progress has been made. The Government are not fixated on regulation. In fact, we have a common tenet of “one in, one out”. We are not in a rush to regulate for the sake of regulating. We are talking merely about a review, not an insistence on regulation. We will review the situation to see whether we can urge the market to act more speedily if it needs to do so.

[Baroness Noakes]

I thank the noble Lord for that. I am sure that the Government will keep this under review. The issue is that a formal review will be launched at a particularly early date when the evidence on the impact of the Green Deal will be relatively light. This will lead to rushed and ill considered action. I will not pursue this further, but will read carefully in Hansard what the Minister and other noble Lords have said and may return to it, perhaps in a different form, on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Marland]

My Lords, I am grateful for these amendments, which aim to set a minimum energy efficiency standard for the private rented sector. As a result, Amendments 20R, 20S, 20T and 20V would set a minimum energy efficiency level of EPC band E for the domestic private rented sector. I hope that this deals with one of the questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. Amendment 20X would require the Secretary of State to make at least one increase to this minimum standard between 2016 and 2019. The EPC is a key factor in this.

First, I can reassure the House that our provisions in Clause 37 already target the worst performing properties. Our intention is similar to that of the amendment—that properties below a band E rating would be targeted under the local authority enforcement powers. Secondly, and most importantly, we are achieving this without setting a minimum standard that could be viewed as a barrier to new landlords entering the market. That is very important. The private rented sector is an increasingly important part of responding to our housing challenge. Yet evidence suggests that there is currently a shortage of supply, which is illustrated by increasing rents. We are trying to plot a pragmatic and sensitive course here. I believe that the provisions are drafted to achieve this balance.

Amendment 20YA would remove an important safeguard for property owners. While we do not believe that improving a property’s energy performance will result in a negative impact on its value, it is only right and proper that we provide owners with that reassurance. I agree with my noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that it is unlikely. There could be solid wall installations, for example, which do not enhance the value of an old property, but that would be pretty rare.

Amendment 20U proposes a national or local register of domestic private rented properties. On 10 June, the Housing Minister stated that the Government have no plans to create a national register of landlords, although he will keep that position under review. I am, however, aware that local authorities are initiating local lists of this type of property where they deem that such lists are of benefit in their areas. My noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith made the good point that some landlords are the local authorities.

Amendment 20RA would provide that the Secretary of State must make regulations requiring local authorities to issue a notice to landlords of domestic private rented properties requiring them to make such improvements as are identified in the notice. If regulation is required, it is our intention clearly to set out provisions requiring local authorities to issue a notice to landlords requiring them to make the necessary improvements. Finally, Amendment 20W would appear to create an incorrect cross-reference. It proposes deleting “subsection (5)” and inserting “subsection (6)”. I hope that that acts as an explanation.

I was asked about whether it is the landlord who must make improvements to a property. Under Clause 37, the requirement is on the landlord, but tenants can request that the landlord take action. I was asked: what if the property is vacant? That is not covered by a definition. No action is required until the property is re-let, after which the action will take place. In summing up, I would invite my noble friend Lady Maddock to withdraw her amendment. Her amendments are extremely valuable and I am very grateful to her for presenting them to us.

[Baroness Noakes]

Before the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, decides what to do with her amendment, perhaps I may follow up a point made by my noble friend Lord Cathcart in relation to tenants. I do not understand the position. Since my noble friend laid it out so clearly, I recall some of the debates that left me with a slightly foggy view when we debated this earlier.

The local authority can require an energy efficiency improvement under the terms of the regulations. An energy efficiency improvement is one which is either paid for by the Green Deal or is free under the energy company’s obligations. Let us assume that it is not free but must be funded by the Green Deal. Let us suppose that the tenant says: “I do not want it. I am the bill payer and I do not want this Green Deal because I do not understand all this stuff about getting extra bills and about energy efficiency—it is too complicated”. This is the point I was trying to make earlier about tenants having a different perspective on life, with different timescales. What happens then?

[Lord Marland]

The first tenant has to agree to the Green Deal. If he or she does not, it will not be installed. If he or she does, it will be part of the ongoing tenancy agreement. As to the desire to have the Green Deal installed, the initiator is the first tenant.

[Baroness Noakes]

That is what I hoped the Minister would say. Can he then explain to me what happens in relation to the local authority’s powers, and whether a landlord who is not in compliance with his obligations is therefore subject to the sanctions that are covered by Clause 39? The local authority issues the regulations; the landlord says, “I will do it, I will get this Green Deal”. The tenant then says no, so the energy efficiency of the property is not improved. Is that landlord, because of the tenant’s action, in non-compliance with his obligations and therefore subject to the penalty clauses?

[Lord Marland]

The noble Baroness hits on an important point. It is that awkward period when the landlord is under an obligation to achieve a minimal EPC banding and is continuing to let the property. It is therefore incumbent upon the local authority to put pressure on the landlord to deliver a property that reaches that banding. I totally accept that, if you have a tenant who does not want the improvements, there is a period of time when pressures are brought to bear. If they do not work, the landlord may have to withdraw his property from the market and the tenant might have to find something elsewhere.

[Baroness Noakes]

It is my understanding that you cannot just throw tenants out nowadays; it is a rather more complicated process.

[Lord Dixon-Smith]

My Lords, my noble friend has a serious point. If the tenant seriously objects, it is completely wrong to hold the landlord responsible for that individual decision. It may be uncomfortable, but that is the reality. Otherwise, we have a form of compulsion that is wholly inappropriate.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Marland and Baroness Noakes

Monday 17th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Marland]

My Lords, it is marvellous to see such harmony in the room at the Government’s expense. Given the force of the arguments, particularly those from the Opposition Benches at which one quakes with fear—although one quakes with fear less at the arguments of noble Lords on our Benches, who are so erudite in these matters—we will obviously consider the amendment and reflect on the recommendations already made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee on the code of practice.

[Baroness Noakes]

That was a slightly less fulsome reply than I had hoped for. I hoped my noble friend would agree readily that this was an appropriate amendment. However, we are where we are and if the Minister does not bring something back on Report, I will. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Climate Change: IPCC Leadership

Debate between Lord Marland and Baroness Noakes

Monday 25th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Noakes]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they support the leadership of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland)]

My Lords, yes. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is the primary authority on the science of climate change and the Government retain confidence in its leadership. We welcome the agreement reached by the IPCC to take forward some key recommendations of the recent independent review into its procedures, communications and management.

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. He will be aware that the recent report by the InterAcademy Council laid bare the faulty processes in the IPCC which led, inter alia, to the ridiculous assertion about the melting of the Himalayan glacier. One clear recommendation was that the IPCC chairman should not serve for more than one term—that is to say, that the current incumbent should already have gone. Why have the Government reached the position in which they appear not to support that? What representations, if any, did the Government make at the recent IPCC meeting to that effect?

[Lord Marland]

Let me point this out to the noble Baroness and let us look at the facts: this organisation won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007, and that should be commended. Like many organisations it will have growing pains, management and communications issues, but it has 194 countries subscribing to it and we cannot just wave a magic wand and change things. An independent review of its activities was carried out—I am grateful to Sir Peter Williams, the treasurer of the Royal Society, for being on the review committee—which found that the management structure was weak and that communications were not adequate. However, the review found that the information the IPCC provides is highly relevant. Frankly, it is not for this Government to decide how the organisation should be run. Dr Pachauri, the chairman, has accepted the recommendations and is going to implement them. He has an excellent relationship with emerging markets, which is very important, and he is an eminent Yale professor who is working for free.