Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Markham and Baroness Berridge

Committee stage
Friday 23rd January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Moore, for answering much of what would have been in my intervention to the noble Lord, Lord Winston. In my 15 years in your Lordships’ House, it has been the usual practice to give way, but I recognise that noble Lords have the prerogative not to accept an intervention. But I find it surprising—and I have never known it before—that the noble Lord is now no longer in his place. That is not in accordance with the advice that the Chief Whip gave this morning that we should treat each other in this House with respect.

The only additional point I make in response to the noble Lord, Lord Winston, who clearly did amazing work on the creation of life—it was on the television as I grew up—and the noble Lord, Lord Markham, who talked about the pathway that midwives give for the safe delivery of that created life, is that it is entirely different to talk about a situation where the state pays for and facilitates lethal drugs to enable a citizen to end their own life.

Looking at the amendment—

[Lord Markham (Con)]

If I may respond to the noble Baroness’s first point, I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Winston, as well as the noble Lord, Lord Mackinlay, who is not in his place either, mentioned that they had appointments that they needed to go to. I believe that that is why the noble Lord, Lord Winston, is not here now.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

Well, I hope that he will write to me personally about this.

In relation to the evidence on which the noble Lord, Lord Birt, is basing his argument, I was surprised that the right reverend Prelate mentioned the Australian non-comparable. Paragraph 8.4 of the impact assessment, on the delivery model, states that

“in most jurisdictions where assisted dying is legal it is provided through the healthcare system”,

so looking for international comparators is an unusual approach. The 30 jurisdictions that we keep hearing about include the Isle of Man, Tuscany in Italy, and only 13 of the 50 United States. This is not a wave that we must get with, as many progressive politicians like to say it is. Denmark considered this in 2024, and 16 out of 17 members of the Danish Council of Ethics voted against introducing assisted dying into their jurisdiction. Only yesterday, the French Senate decided not to go forward with legislation. This is in no way a progressive train that we need to get on.

My second point relates to the speed of these decisions for families. We know that the Bill is philosophically based on individual autonomy, which is anathema to many communities. For families to know that this was done within 18 days will only compound what we believe will be complicated grief. I am particularly concerned about how the speed of service will fit in with the increasing uncertainty of diagnoses for 18 to 25 year-olds because of the various positive effects of treatments for them. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, has admitted that there are, sadly, deficiencies in Clause 43 in relation to advertising. I do not think I am a cynic, but I am sorry to say that I can see a competition: “Can I get to 18 years and 18 days and be the first young person to meet that milestone?” We do not want a culture of speed in this process, limiting reflection.

Finally, maybe I am the only noble Lord sitting here without the benefits of the pre-legislative scrutiny of a consultation White Paper but, with many amendments, I am wondering how this service will fit together with a panel—or will it be a judge, or a judge with a couple of other members? That is the deficiency: in Committee, we are still trying to put right the lack of pre-legislative scrutiny, and I do not know whether that is possible.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Markham and Baroness Berridge

Committee stage
Friday 16th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

What I am trying to come back to—a point that my noble friend Lord Deben was making—is that there are some valid criteria here. I am trying to build some flexibility into this system. Lots of eligibility criteria are being set out here, in all these different amendments.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

I believe that the noble Lord answered that intervention, so this is separate.

The noble Lord served on the Select Committee with other noble Lords. We heard clear evidence from Alex Ruck Keene and others that this is not about flexibility: you need to know which piece of legislation you, as a clinician, are applying. Are you acting under your general duty on suicide prevention or, as in the example I gave, are you acting under either the Mental Health Act or TIA? There is no flexibility. Clinicians are asking for clarity on this; with all due respect, that needs to be in the Bill.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

It is about whether we are trying to build everything in; I will try to make my point now that I have taken a few interventions.

The point I am trying to make in all this is that these groups of amendments set out lots of different eligibility criteria. Some are about nursing homes and whether you are a resident. Some are about whether you have ever had a mental health assessment. Some are about financial support. Everyone in every circumstance says that, in some people’s circumstances, these criteria are very relevant and should be the criteria set down for doctors. It should be very clear that, under those criteria, the doctors and the panel should be taking these things into account. The criteria might be totally irrelevant for other cases, too.

We are trying to give the doctors and panels the opportunity to make these decisions without being tied up in knots over black and white exercises around whether the law is applicable to someone according to this or that, so that we can have a workable set of rules that takes into account all noble Lords’ concerns to make it as safe as possible—quite rightly—and creates a process whereby, ultimately, it is the experts, doctors and social workers on panels who are best placed to make a decision.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Lord Markham and Baroness Berridge

Committee stage
Friday 14th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

With due respect, I must say, as one of the committee members, that that point was put forward on a number of occasions. Unfortunately, there was a majority of people in the committee of seven to five against, by the way the nomination process worked, so it was the feeling of those members not to invite terminally ill people to speak. The minority of us who were in favour of the Bill tried on a number of occasions to hear them, but that was not allowed.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I do not think it is helpful to your Lordships’ House to be going into discussions that included private discussions. The Motion that the House passed did not suggest that. Noble Lords will also know that there are ethical concerns about calling people who are so vulnerable.