European Union Committee: 2012-13 (EUC Report)

Lord Maclennan of Rogart Excerpts

Tuesday 30th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, I have had the privilege of serving on four sub-committees of the European Union Select Committee. I have listened with great interest to the current chairmen of six of the EU committees describing the work of the current Session, which is of course what this debate is primarily about, but it would be a mistake to follow their lead in going over the detailed business that these committees have engaged in.

However, I would like to say at the beginning how very much I have appreciated the leadership of the chairman of the Select Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Boswell of Aynho, and pay tribute to his fresh thinking about how these committees should work. I also feel it is appropriate to express strong gratitude to the staff who have serviced these committees. They are not large in number and they have to work extraordinarily hard to produce the advice and drafts on which we focus.

The European Union Select Committee is one of the most important functions of the House of Lords. It currently engages, I believe, 74 Members of this House. The noble Lord, Lord Boswell, indicated that Sir John Cunliffe stated how much influence we have brought to bear on Brussels and Governments. I disagree very strongly with the previous speaker, my noble friend Lord Howell, in his summation of the way in which the Union ought to operate by way of co-ordination, rather than the open legislative process and the open parliamentary process that we have. I cannot see how what he has recommended is in the least conformable with democratic thinking in a modern conglomeration of 28 nations. How could the detail be co-ordinated effectively so that the disagreements are properly vented and properly answered and consensus is arrived at? It is not a matter of modern technology; it is a matter of openness that we have to embrace if this Union of ours is to enjoy the support that it deserves having kept this continent at peace for an unprecedented length of time.

I did not mean to divert down that route, but I wanted to indicate my belief that the work of these committees is invaluable in ventilating issues that need to be raised with the Government, the European Commission, the European Parliament and the Council. There is not much doubt that the work of these committees has made a significant impact. It is unusual for a clash of mighty opposites to occur, such as we had over the opt-out from justice and home affairs. None the less, it ventilated the arguments and enabled many members of the public, who were certainly not as well informed as they might have been, to grasp some of the issues and it got significant coverage in the national press.

I would like to open a thought that is not entirely about the influence that we can have on government, but rather the influence that we might have with the public. It seems to me that because we are doing studies of great depth and importance, and we are engaging with witnesses who are knowledgeable, engaged and interested, we produce significantly sophisticated reports. However, despite getting our message out to many newspapers and some broadcasts—the report talks about 35 million opportunities for people to understand what is being said in dialogue—I none the less think that we might, within our terms of reference, contemplate how we could gain more public understanding of the work that we do and get the public almost to help to promote some of our studies.

We are, of course, engaged largely in scrutiny of decision-making in the process of its being decided, but the third term of reference set out in Appendix 1 to the annual report is:

“To represent the House as appropriate in interparliamentary co-operation within the European Union”.

That is a very broad mandate and we have certainly used it to engage through COSAC and other bilateral meetings with Governments and parliaments of other countries. But it seems to me that that is not enough. We have only two full meetings of COSAC in the course of the year. We do not have as many meetings as we might have with other parliamentary bodies or with our own European parliamentarians—we have three meetings a year in the House of Commons. However, that does not seem to me sufficiently to embrace the public. I should like to speculate and suggest that we might communicate with the public to find out which issues give rise to the greatest concern. A body such as YouGov, chaired by Peter Kellner, the spouse of the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, might be able to identify and prioritise the public’s real concerns and consequently we could engage in a debate. We could have a special meeting open to stakeholders who are particularly exercised by what they understand to be the problem with Europe or the way the Union is moving. We could then include these thoughts in our scrutiny and researches, however unfocused they may be, and we could answer them directly and possibly engage in a continuing dialogue.

The way in which we put out our invitations is very reasonable, but it is nearly always sparked off by a proposal from government or from the European Union. My view is that, if we are to exemplify the effectiveness of our work comprehensibly, we must endeavour to engage more directly with the public.

EUC Report: EU External Action Service

Lord Maclennan of Rogart Excerpts

Monday 3rd June 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, from my external position, I would like to say how very much I appreciated the work of the committee and the Chairman in producing this thought-provoking report. It is extremely timely, and bringing it forward in time to feed into the review being undertaken by the vice-president and high representative is a very skilful move. I cannot believe that there will be another contribution from a national parliament that will have more thought-provoking recommendations with the possibility of enabling the new group of European leaders who will emerge in 2014 to get to grips with this.

It is a very short time since the External Action Service was set up. It is consequently right to be cautious about it and to learn from the experience of the past two-plus years. The noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, deserves very high commendation for the work that she has done, not only in shaping the structure of the institution, which is not an institution but an agency, but in her response to crises that were not predictable when the agency came into being. In particular, I wish to record our admiration for the work that has been done between Kosovo and Serbia. The European Union Select Committee heard from Serbian parliamentarians not very long ago, who made it plain that they were going to find it exceedingly difficult to come to any agreement with Kosovo other than through the agency of the European Union.

I take the view that there is some urgency in continuing this work. It is quite clear that the global powers, the BRICs, will develop very rapidly over the next decade, and if the European Union is to exercise its influence, and even to protect itself, it must speak with a single voice on many of the issues that confront us. During these early years of a common foreign and security policy, it is evident that that has not always been so. Our relationships with Russia have been notably very different, Germany has spoken for itself very often in these matters, and the Libyan intervention was not supported by Germany. We need to treat these issues with greater coherence than has to date been achieved.

We can be very effective, I do not doubt, if we bring our foreign stances together. We must not seek to do this only in areas of self-centred need. We must recognise that it is a continent of 500 million people with a huge underlying economy. We are in a position to assist other less developed countries that have, as the right reverend Prelate said, less adherence and commitment to western European balance, democracy and human rights. We have to recognise that these matters can be effectively addressed if we come together with a common voice. We have used sanctions as a pressure in this period and they have been effective—indeed, the committee recognised that—but persuasion is also important.

Despite the fact that France and the United Kingdom have a long history of extensive global participation, we ought to recognise that that is going to diminish and that there is no way in which we can continue to be or should wish to be an imperial power. This brings me to an issue that was clearly discussed in the drawing together of this valuable report: the extent to which we in the United Kingdom should hold our own role, not only in terms of our own interest but in terms of our Diplomatic Service. There are places in which it is quite clear that the United Kingdom is less influential than it was. In some countries in west Africa, for example, we do not have the kind of representation that would carry weight. That is partly a function of prioritisation, which of course was a theme of this report. However, as these developments occur, the continent of Europe, with its 500 million people, should be able to have a view about global issues right across the world and we should not back out and deal only with matters of crisis.

The transference of power to the European Union, of course, cannot be accomplished without a greater democratisation of the institutions. It cannot be achieved overnight. That is a subject for further reflection, but that we should have the ambition to do this seems to me to be beyond dispute.

I noted with interest the committee’s comments on development, trade and climate change. Those issues are all important. It is right that at the beginning of this process of developing a foreign service—for that in effect is what it is—we should not expect too much to be taken off. However, these matters are interlinked, and I think the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, was explicit in and has been successful in indicating how important political understanding is when we are making contributions to trade issues. Here I somewhat disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, and his remarks about China. We have to recognise—I have to declare an interest in regard to China—that we cannot turn a blind eye to matters such as the denial of human rights, even if we are seeking to extend our intimacy in the area of trade.

This report ought to be considered very carefully by the Council in formulating its new views, by the Commission in recognising what a valuable role there is for this service, and by the European Parliament. The criticisms made by some of those European parliamentarians about the lack of political will were justified, but what a splendid beginning has been made in these two and a half years.

European Union Committee Report

Lord Maclennan of Rogart Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Baroness, who is the first non-member of the committee to speak in this debate, particularly to hear the robust statement of her view about the future of Britain without membership of the European Union.

I begin by thanking the two chairmen of the committee under whom I have served for many years. The noble Lord, Lord Boswell, has taken over from the noble Lord, Lord Roper, in a very strong manner. I am delighted that both of them are here today and have contributed so notably to the debate. The remarks that the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, made about this being a time of uncertainty and change are, if anything, underestimating the crisis that we face. However, he is a man of moderation, and I would not expect him to exaggerate.

The work that the committee has performed under the two chairmen seems to demonstrate that this Parliament in which we serve has the capability to open up what is actually happening in the European Union and, by the care that is taken and evidence that is submitted, adjust policy, influence government and influence the European Union itself. In all my contacts with the European Union over the past 10 years since I served on the Convention on the Future of Europe, I have been conscious that this committee is very highly respected throughout the institutions. There is one institutional question that we might consider addressing to enhance our effectiveness, which is by having a closer link with the Members of the European Parliament who are elected from this country. It would serve them well, as well as us, to have a dialogue on a more frequent basis about particular issues. We have bilateral meetings, but they are infrequent and they tend to be rather general in their thinking.

I also believe that the work that this committee does is notable for its transparency, its openness to influence from all those stakeholders who are effective and to real dialogue with Ministers. That makes the work of this committee worthy of greater notice than we are actually attracting. I think we have to put our heads together to work out how to draw the attention of the public to what we are doing and saying because the European Union has for some years been a whipping boy. Politicians have taken whatever opportunity they could to suggest that our difficulties are in some way a consequence of the European Union, and that is so far from the truth. I am a child of my generation; the Second World War is closely knitted into my very being. Those who are saying the European Union is not about the prevention of war in Europe are showing a remarkable lack of understanding of history. It is vital, in my opinion, that we reflect on the centuries of tension and military confrontations which have caused tragedy beyond measure, particularly in the 20th century.

In this debate, we are considering 34 reports which are summarised in their conclusions. I do not intend to speak about them in detail because that is not the role of this debate. It is about the nature and direction of our work, but I will mention three in particular. The justice and institutions report on the overload of the European Court of Justice was a very brave report, indicating that more money needed to be spent, even at this time of recession and tight budgets. Strong concern was expressed by the members of that committee because there was fear that the European Court of Justice, if not sustained by our membership, could go the way of the European Court of Human Rights, with great delay frustrating the delivery of justice through inadequate support and inadequate judges. The government response to our report was not as straightforward or as strong as it should have been. Subsequently, we heard from the Commission that it shared the committee’s concern and expressed support for the court’s own proposal to increase the number of judges in the General Court. That is an issue that is still alive and we will need, in my view, to return to it.

I listened with interest to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, about drugs. It is a very good point of view. This is not a matter that should be considered wholly within the ambit of the European Union’s responsibility. However, it is currently reconsidering its drugs policy. We ought to bring out the fact that there are differences of experience within the European Union in the treatment of the drugs problem, which has a massive impact on levels of crime in this country and in other European countries, and which has cross-border aspects as well. I agree with the thrust of the noble Lord’s report, which was that we must have better communication on these issues. That is very true.

One major point that the noble Lord’s report brought out that we should all study with care is the experience of the Portuguese Government, and how in the past decade they took a more advanced and radical view on the criminality of drugs and on the legalisation of drug taking. The evidence that was produced following a visit to Lisbon indicated that progress was being made. That seems to be an example that we in this country might want to follow. I hope that it will be considered.

The final report I will refer to is that on defence capability. Basically it indicated that the German nation was not paying enough attention to, and not participating significantly in, this sphere. That was a reasonable view. We and the Government have tended to emphasise Anglo-French co-operation in defence matters, but the German nation has the resources to make a significant contribution—not necessarily in imposing the will of the European Union on third countries outside, but in participating in what the European Union regards as in its interests.

I conclude by expressing the view that the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, was right to talk about the slow development of policy in the European Union. However, that might change if the public were more aware of how policy is being developed, if Members of Parliament and members of the Government were more open in discussing these matters, and if the media covered these things with greater attention than they do. I say this particularly in the light of the fact that we have a new director-general of the BBC, who I hope will give some consideration to this and who is also a Member of our House. These are issues of much greater importance than the daily reports of local crime that take up at least one-third of news bulletins. I am tremendously eager for what this Committee is debating to be understood, and for the Government to stop talking in general terms about the European Union and to focus more on the particularities with which this committee gets to grips.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Maclennan of Rogart Excerpts

Monday 14th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

My noble friend Lord Hunt was absolutely clear. We will not vote for a Bill that does not solve the problem of the powers. We do not believe that the draft Bill does that. As my noble friend made clear, we will have to wait and see what is then produced. There was absolutely no lack of clarity in what my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath said in relation to that issue.

Our position is clear. The Conservatives’ position is clear. I should also make it clear that I thought that two of the parties were divided internally as to what to do—the Conservatives and Labour—and that the Liberal Democrats were united. Imagine our surprise when we saw them today. First, we had the greatest exponent of Lords reform, the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, who, to his great credit, did not even mention Lords reform. We heard the excellent noble Lord, Lord Phillips, give an inspirational speech on how well the Lords performs now; we had the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, saying that more thought was required; and the two proponents of Lords reform were the noble Lords, Lord Ashdown and Lord Rennard.

The passion of the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, for reform was so great that he did not allow history to get in his way; he did not allow foreign comparisons to be drawn accurately; and he was, on two separate occasions, corrected on the facts in relation to his speech. Nobody, particularly those in the Egyptian Parliament, could have doubted his enthusiasm for Lords reform. I wonder whether enthusiasm is enough. Surely it would be much more sensible if we got down to the arguments in relation to it.

I continue on the propositions: there is no doubt that the Joint Committee was divided on the way forward. The Lords is, by a very substantial majority, I would opine, opposed to the Government’s reforms. The Liberal Democrats, however, are, by a majority, in favour of reform but appear to have nothing to say on the detail. The current position is obviously a very bad basis for reform. I am very sympathetic to the position of the Leader of your Lordships’ House, who everybody admires and likes. Like him, I embarked on proposals for reform—but they foundered. The right thing for the noble Lord to do is to come forward with proposals that have some prospect of success.

We know that we all agree on certain things. The speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, went much further than the Steel Bill, and we can implement those proposals as quickly as possible. The answer for us, in terms of ensuring that we retain our effectiveness and status, is to come forward with detailed proposals that would be attractive to people. It is ultimately not enough to have the excellent passion of the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, and the position of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde—

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for giving way, but does he not agree that we cannot move on this subject in a sensible way until we know whether the constitution of the United Kingdom will remain one, or whether Scotland falls out—in which case, a completely different House of Lords or second Chamber would be required?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

I think that we could move on some proposals for reform—for example, the ability of Peers to retire, the ability to expel particular sorts of Members to deal with the hereditary Peers, and various other proposals made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. If there were a consensus and a genuine feeling that the Commons desperately wanted a democratic House of Lords, we should probably move on that basis, but that is obviously not the position. That being so, I completely agree that we need to consider what may happen in relation to Scotland before any final conclusions are made. However, the ball is very much in the Government’s court.

I want to comment on the way that the Government are behaving in relation to this issue at the moment. I particularly have in mind the remarks made at the beginning of this debate by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, who is preparing to lay the blame for the failure of these Lords reform proposals. If one starts to prepare the way for failure and to wonder where the blame lies, then we are really wasting our time looking at these proposals. Let us give up now if there is no commitment from the person who is supposed to be leading the process of reform on behalf of the Government. There could not be a clearer signal that the Government are wasting the time of this House and the other place and bringing the whole of Parliament into disrepute than that they should try and fail to amend the arrangements for the constitution.

I should be very interested to hear from the Minister when we can see a Bill on this issue. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, made it clear that we have not yet seen the Bill that the House will consider when it comes from the Commons. I should be interested to hear whether the Government intend to impose a timetable Motion in relation to the Commons’ consideration of this constitutional Bill. My third question relates to the extent to which the door is closed on a referendum. If the door is closed and we are not going to have a vote on whether the second Chamber should now be elected, why did we have a vote on whether admirable places such as Doncaster should retain their mayors? Can the Minister explain the Government’s position on this?

I regarded myself as one of the greatest enthusiasts for the topic of Lords reform. However, having listened to 46 speeches stretching from Thursday to Monday, I have to say that my enthusiasm has waned a little. If the enthusiasm of an anorak such as myself has waned, imagine how the country will view the issue.

Constitutional Change: Constitution Committee Report

Lord Maclennan of Rogart Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

I begin by expressing my admiration for the report of the Constitution Committee. I believe that, in quite a short compass, it defines many of the current problems of our legislative process for dealing with constitutional issues and suggests a system that I think has a great deal of merit. I really hope that the Government will reconsider because, to put it as kindly as I can, I regard their response to this committee’s report as deeply disappointing.

In the past, I, with Robin Cook, engaged in a process of consultation with parties, government and the public about how to implement constitutional reform, and what I drew from that experience was the importance of proper deliberation and of seeking agreement across as broad a spectrum of politics as possible. The committee was right to say that constitutional reform could not possibly be based on consensus, but the widest agreement is very desirable. I thought that the Government’s suggestion in their response that legislation for constitutional reform is no different from other legislation was misconceived. In the first place, it is not a measure of relative importance in the eyes of the public that distinguishes, say, the health Bill currently before Parliament from a Bill to determine how frequently parliamentary boundaries will be changed. Different people will have very different views about that. It is important to recognise that public trust in our democracy depends upon our constitutional arrangements, and we should not take them as a lesser matter. When countries are suffering economic difficulties—and there are very acute difficulties at the moment—the tendency is not to feel confidence in the political system that has brought them to that place. It is very important that people have confidence in the decision-making process, the checks and balances, how leaders emerge, how they represent the public and how they can be got at by the public. Consequently, I very much agreed with the general evidence given by Professor Sir Jeffrey Jowell to the committee that,

“the constitution provides the rules of the game, the framework for all official decisions. If these decisions are to be accepted as legitimate, even though you may not agree with them, then the framework of decision-making must command respect and general acquiescence”.

The process that has been described by the committee is one that would make it more likely that acquiescence and respect are obtained for these measures of constitutional change.

I would contrast the measures that were introduced at the beginning of the Labour Government in 1997—including freedom of information; an initial step towards reform of this House; devolution—with the measures that were brought before Parliament at the very end of the last Labour Government, which had not been subject, with the exception of the Civil Service proposals, to any kind of extensive reform and were causing quite a considerable degree of difference between different groups which are interested in the subject.

It does appear to me that the committee has given us serious suggestions as to how the prelegislative process should be conducted. All the steps—seven steps are recommended in this process, including a post-legislative review—are indispensable if we are to evoke the trust of the public. I am concerned that this short and dismissive response will confine this report to the archives. I do not believe that that would be a satisfactory outcome. I hope that the Constitution Committee will consider whether some of these matters might be put, with the agreement of the House, to the various committees that consider procedure, including the Liaison Committee. The incoherence of our constitutional reform is beginning to become not just a sign of flexibility, but something that baffles the public; it does not operate to bring about more sensible changes in the way we reach our governmental decisions.

I hope that this will not be end of the debate and that there will be a systematic series of suggestions put forward for the House to deliberate upon.

Scotland: Director General for External Affairs

Lord Maclennan of Rogart Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, that is an extremely good political intervention that I trust will appear in the Scottish press tomorrow. The devolved Administrations work best when they work constructively with the Westminster Government. That is how government should operate. Different Governments need to work constructively together. I know that there are those who know the Scottish First Minister better than I do and think that he is a very provocative populist who likes provoking the Westminster Government. That is clearly part of what is going on.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

While acknowledging that the origin of this post was with the Cabinet Secretary, since it was announced it appears that surreptitious steps have been taken by the Permanent Secretary in the Scotland Office to go much beyond the role of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive. Will my noble friend agree to accept the advice given by the leaders of the three major parties in Parliament that Sir Gus O’Donnell should now institute an inquiry into the conduct of this role and, in particular, examine whether the purpose, as set out on the Scottish Government website, to develop Scotland’s constitutional framework, is being stretched beyond its original purpose into the dismantling of the United Kingdom’s constitution?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, again, the Scottish First Minister is highly skilled at stretching issues to the absolute outer limits of what is acceptable. This is clearly being played in Scottish politics in that way. We discussed the question of the senior civil servant in the Scottish Executive last time. I simply stress that at the end of the day the Scottish Executive are responsible to the Scottish Parliament, and through it to Scottish voters. Scottish voters want to be concerned about what is happening in the management of health, education and the Scottish economy when they look at the Scottish Government, and may not take kindly to a Scottish Government who spend too much of their time on extraneous issues.

Public Services: Security of Provision

Lord Maclennan of Rogart Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I am not fully briefed on the exact details of my honourable friend Paul Burstow’s diary. We have of course been concerned with ensuring that the services provided by Southern Cross should be maintained. There have been various negotiations. Southern Cross confirmed in an announcement to the Stock Exchange on 27 September that it had reached agreement with its principal landlords and that it would transfer the group’s care home leases to its landlords and the related business and assets for the operations of those homes to its landlords or alternative care providers.

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, does not Southern Cross illustrate that it is not only small and medium sized companies that need to be watched? Is there a continuing process in respect of the larger companies that are providing comparable public services?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, one or two of the providers of public services in the private sector are now among the largest companies in Britain and the world. Noble Lords who read the financial pages may know that G4S has just taken over another major multinational company. Liberata, a back-office outsourcing firm, nearly went bankrupt in 2008, partly because of its pensions liability, and had to be restructured. It is now partly owned by its employees and partly owned by the Pension Protection Fund. The Government, as with all others in such circumstances, do get engaged in trying to re-establish companies in difficulty that are playing a valuable role.