Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord MacKenzie of Culkein and Baroness Cumberlege

Wednesday 12th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord MacKenzie of Culkein]

My Lords, I rise briefly to speak to Amendments 58C and 59. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, rightly referred to including nursing in the Bill.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, said, the practice of nursing these days is underpinned by research. Of necessity, nurses are involved in research, and it must be right to include the Nursing and Midwifery Council and the Chief Nursing Officer in the Bill.

In debates on the Bill, we have heard a number of times that it is all too easy to exclude nurses. Whatever body they should be represented on, they so often are not there. I can go back, probably the better part of 40 years, maybe more, to when I once had the temerity to ask my matron to raise something at the hospital management committee. She said to me, “I’m sorry, nurse, I can’t, because I only attend by invitation of the group secretary”.

There have probably been about 20 reorganisations—I forget how many—since those days. However, all too often the situation has not changed and nurses remain excluded. The reason for excluding them, very often, is that the legislation does not cover it and therefore it is not necessary for nurses to be included. We now have the opportunity. Let us have nursing in the Bill. If we are going to have lists, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, I want to see nurses in it. I hope that the Committee will support that.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I strongly support the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, and am very interested in what the noble Lord, Lord MacKenzie, said. It seems that, over the years, nursing has been the poor relation when it comes to promoting the medical profession. Both are so important, and they have to work together. If the Francis report tells us anything, it is that we need to ensure that both are of a very high quality.

I asked the Royal College of Nursing today to give me some examples of research that nurses are doing. I will not try the patience of the Committee by going through them, but it gave me three extremely good examples which undoubtedly improve the quality of patients’ experiences and recovery rates. This work is going on, but it really should be of a higher profile. It should be applauded and used. I appreciate very much what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said about lists, which are a trap that I remember falling into on occasions when I was a Minister. I suspect that the noble Earl will tell us that we want to have it both ways: sometimes we want things in regulations because that is more flexible and at other times we want them in the Bill. This is something of a dilemma, but if the medical profession is in the Bill, nursing certainly should be as well.

I also strongly support Amendment 60, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg. I was very interested to read about the delays that occur through not getting together all the different organisations that are going to be involved in a single trial. According to Kidney Research UK, the time taken in one trail to receive R&D permission varied from around five weeks to 29 weeks. A study of stroke survivors took between one week and 35 weeks to receive permission from the NHS trusts involved. The time taken between submission of site-specific information and NHS approval ranged from five weeks to 50 weeks for a multi-centre trial comparing two types of emergency intervention for ruptured aortic aneurysm. This is totally unacceptable. Those who are promoting the research, and are the leaders in it, must get so frustrated when the bureaucracy will not allow them to go ahead. We need good research. It makes a huge improvement to patients’ lives, especially, of course, when it is translated to the patient in the bed, as it were. Anything that we can do to speed this up and to put pressure on to ensure that the time lags are not as long as this would be very much welcomed.