Court of Appeal (Recording and Broadcasting) Order 2013

Lord Mackay of Drumadoon Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

My Lords, the Opposition certainly support the Government’s intention in helping to make the legal system more transparent and to educate people in its workings. I am much encouraged by the remarks of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, about the experience in Scotland. It would be interesting to know what the viewing figures are for these proceedings but at least we are clearly not in the realm of “Strictly Come Appealing” or possible interpretations of that kind.

Perhaps the Minister could indicate whether and at what stage there might be a review of the situation. Obviously, as the noble and learned Lord has said, if there were some transgression on the part of the media, judges could stop facilitating the process of broadcasting. But is there an intention—as in the normal course of events presumably there would be—to review the operation, and would that be in conjunction with the senior judiciary? We are limiting the arrangements, in the first instance at any rate, to the Court of Appeal. There would be concern if it were proposed to extend it to other, lower courts, particularly if witnesses and parties were to appear in broadcasts, but fortunately we do not seem to be following the American model of turning this into a source of entertainment rather than education. To the extent that this proposal will contribute to a better understanding of the legal system, it is certainly to be welcomed.

I had not understood the position in Scotland to have been as it has been described to us today. I pay tribute to the noble and learned Lord for having blazed a trail for what ought to be a distinctly progressive move towards enlightening the public and the users of the legal system about how it operates, at least on this important level, in addition to the broadcasts that currently take place of the Supreme Court itself, as the noble and learned Lord reminded us. We warmly endorse matters as they are laid before us and look forward to seeing how they progress in practice.

[Lord Mackay of Drumadoon (CB)]

I am conscious that not every Lord Mackay has any right to say anything about the judicial system in England, and he should confine himself to the system to which he belongs, in Scotland. However, it might help Members of the Committee if I endorse what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, has said here today.

My impression of the proceedings recorded in Scotland is that the lawyers and judges who took part were confident that the trust placed in the broadcasters was merited. I have heard no criticism of the recording or, ultimately, transmission, of the broadcasts. On the other hand, among one’s lay friends—including legal friends—who watch some of these programmes, there is a range of opinions on the success of the venture. Sometimes it is clear from questioning the viewer that he or she has not followed everything that was broadcast. One reason may be that a documentary can only last an hour or so but must represent filming of a trial lasting 10 days or 20 days, or whatever. To some extent the fact that programmes are sometimes misunderstood or not fully appreciated may—in a funny way—be a further justification for taking a small but very well thought-out step towards deciding whether broadcasting has a role to play in the judicial system in England.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to both noble and learned Lords for giving us the opportunity to hear about the Scottish experience. I notice that the two juniors of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, have remained silent during this debate, but I know that their presence is nevertheless welcome.

I think the Scottish experience has been trailblazing, and none of the fears I had about broadcasting the courts have applied to the Supreme Court. It has greatly enhanced public appreciation and awareness of the Supreme Court to have the live feed and the ability for the public to watch it at work. I am sure my officials have already taken note of practice direction 1992. The noble Lord is quite right that the question of ceremonies and swearing-in is not covered by this order, and I will reflect on that, because it would be useful. It would be nice, when a Lord Chief Justice hands over, if there was some kind of accompanying televisual ceremony. I agree with that. Furthermore, the broadcasters will be able to create documentaries. I understand there have been some good ones. There is one in my pile about a Scottish trial, made by Channel 4. I have not watched it yet but am told it is very good.

To be fair, the evidence is that this can be helpful. I am sure that all our views are coloured by the images of the OJ Simpson trial and the trial in South Africa, which seemed to move from court of law to three-ring circus very quickly. I remain cautious in this area, but the Committee can be doubly reassured because the Lord Chief Justice has gone through this at every step and, equally, any changes will have to be agreed by the Lord Chief Justice of the day. As I said, both Houses of Parliament will also have to be convinced. We have put in the safety catches—that is, if you can put safety catches on a slippery slope.

I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lords, Lord Hope and Lord Mackay, for what they said. We will review the arrangements in due course, including with the senior judiciary to make sure that it is comfortable with how they are working.