Children and Social Work Bill [HL]

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, it seems a long time since I introduced the Bill that became the Children Act 1989 to this House. It is true that the Department of Health played a great part in that Bill, but it did not exclusively regulate what went into the Bill because it followed work by the Law Commission, which was then subject to the Lord Chancellor’s Department. Of course, the Lord Chancellor’s Department had a general remit in relation to the civil law that was not particularly allocated to a department, so the general law in relation to children was something that the Lord Chancellor’s Department had an interest in.

The Minister of State at that time in the Department of Health was David Mellor and there was an extremely experienced gentleman called Rupert Hughes who knew absolutely everything that could be known about social work. Not only did he have knowledge about it, he also had wise advice to tender to Ministers about what was feasible. I am glad to know that the structure of the 1989 Act has played a very full part in regulation since.

I confess to having two sadnesses. The first is the extent to which the care system has let down so many of those who were entrusted to it. The second is in relation to the extension for care leavers to be looked after, too, which was strongly urged on us in 1988 and 1989 by Lady Faithfull and others. It was difficult enough to get what we wanted at the time: to get more was not quite so easy. I had hoped that ultimately it would happen. It seems to me that this Bill gives us a very good opportunity to make that happen.

The principles laid out in Clause 1 are referred to as corporate parenting principles. There must be a limit to the number of organisations that will claim corporate parenting of a particular child. Any question of other departments or agencies being required to conform to these principles is a separate and distinct matter from corporate parenting. The local authority in terms of the Children Act 1989 is really given the responsibility of a parent where it is necessary for the state to intervene. The principles of parenting, therefore, should apply to the local authority. I see no reason why similar principles should not be applied to the other branches of government and agencies that are interested, and, in particular, government departments in relation to the various matters that have been referred to. I will not weary your Lordships by referring to them again. But the system of having corporate principles in relation to parenting strikes me as extremely wise.

One aspect of this has been mentioned by many others already: continuity. In the management of local authorities it is extremely difficult to have continuity with the people actually looking after the child from time to time because people change and so on. I am not particularly enamoured of the idea of a personal adviser for a child. I feel that we need the people in the local authority’s service who are actually looking after the child to have some kind of continuing relationship with the child. I understand that it is difficult and not easy to fulfil with management, but it is vitally important.

I am supported in that by the finding of the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, in his excellent report to the Government on deaths in custody that somebody should have responsibility for the care of a vulnerable person in the system. So far, the Government have not accepted that recommendation, but I always hope that they will do. Certainly, emphasis on this is extremely important. I agree that it is difficult to do, but emphasis should be laid on this in relation to part of the clause that deals with relationships. Clause 1(1)(f) is one of the few places in the Bill that mentions relationships, and the need,

“for those children and young people to be safe, and for stability in their home lives, relationships and education or work”.

That has already been referred to in relation to schools and it should be central if this change is to be successful.

The constitutional issues raised by my noble friend Lord Lang of Monkton are obvious. I listened to my noble friend Lady Shephard, who said that we should not be too concerned with these. I am not going to concern myself much with them, but I will say that if it is possible to have the proposed statutory regulations in draft form before Committee, it might be equally possible to deal with another aspect of the Constitution Committee’s report, which is to change it into statute and make these amendments to the statute.

I agreed very much with what the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said about trying to change the present system. It seems to be a reasonably good system for regulation, but for the promotion of social workers, a chartered body would be useful—but it would not be a disciplinary body. The BMA is not a royal chartered society, as was mentioned in another connection. The regulatory functions in relation to health are in hands other than those of the royal colleges, but they promote the status of their members. I am an honorary fellow of one or two of them so I must not say too much, but a body with the function of promoting the stature of social workers is required.

I am extremely conscious of the kind of decisions that social workers have to take and for which they may be called into question—a point on which the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, was very eloquent. When I was a law officer in Scotland, I was involved in a fatal accident inquiry in connection with the death of a little girl who had been killed by her brother. Her brother had been violent and had been taken into custody. He managed to elude his custodians and he went home. He was at home for a time and the social worker knew that he was there, and that he should not have been. But the social worker felt strongly that the brother wanted to try to co-ordinate the family and bring everyone together. Sadly, his wish did not work.

I saw the terrific stress that is put on social workers in that kind of situation, because they feel that they ought to be seen as friends of the family, not as representatives of outside authority such as the police or the prosecution service. These are conflicts of interest, if you like, which used to be said to be part of the functions of the Lord Chancellor. This is just one illustration of a problem that happened to come before me early in my life; I am sure that there are many other aspects to this. But the fact is that social workers have to take difficult decisions and often have a great deal of work to do. Those are matters that we have to think about.

So far as the second part of the Bill is concerned, I do not propose to say anything more about it except that a good deal of what has been said requires to be considered very carefully.

Education and Adoption Bill

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Wednesday 16th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sutherland of Houndwood (CB)]

My Lords, I am very happy to have my name on the amendment headed by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. I support this because I think it is the right item to emphasise in such a process. I am not sure I would want to see legislative details on this in the Bill, but I would hope to see something in regulations that would take account of the force of this amendment.

If I may step back for a moment to look at the broad clutch of amendments that we are dealing with now, the Bill is, I think, about two things, on which most of these amendments have an important bearing. The Bill is, first, about meeting the needs of individual children. I am grateful to the noble Baroness on the opposition Benches for re-emphasising the point that, for any pupil, one day too long in such a school is unacceptable. That should be the driving force on which we base our decisions on these amendments and the future of the Bill.

The Bill’s second main aim is to define the role of academies in dealing with this problem. A whole series of subsidiary questions come out of that, one of which is the definition of coasting. I am not quite as sceptical as some about this; after all, this has been brought to our notice by the Chief Inspector of Schools, who has identified a range of schools as coasting. He must have a working definition and he has not been faulted so far, as far as I can see, on the identification of such schools—we have a basis, we are not starting from scratch. I appreciate the way in which the definition will be dealt with in regulations that are subject to affirmative resolution. I, with others, thank the Minister for this being part of the process.

There are therefore two issues: the needs of the individual child and how far the academy system—which is the system we have—will meet those needs most efficiently. I do not think there is an absolute answer to the second question and that is why many of us have raised questions about some academies—some—that are in difficulty and have to be dealt with. I appreciate the government amendment, which allows parity of treatment through the whole school system and which is absolutely the right direction to take. It shows that the process of discussing this Bill in Committee had a real point and a real outcome. The whole point is that the needs of the individual child should be met.

One question is how far the processes that the Bill will put in place will contribute to or diminish this. I understand the need for and talk of the importance of consultation, but there is one real issue: I remind my fellow Peers that the process involves three years of assembling statistics. The message that there is a question of coasting will not be unannounced or sudden. One wonders what the governing bodies will have been doing, many of which contain—I stress this—elected parent representatives, whose job it is to represent the views of parents in a school that has apparently been coasting for at least three years, according to these regulations.

Is this the right direction to go? That is the broad question: whether or not we are with the whole academy movement, or whether we have evidential or ideological reasons for opposing it. We should set ideological reasons aside, as they are not relevant to the needs of the individual child, but what kind of evidential reasons could we have? Let us look at the comparisons. Quality and standards in English schools have risen dramatically while this process has been in place. Look at schools in London, which we are in the midst of. The schools I had some dealings with, including primary schools in some of its most difficult areas, were in a terrible state a number of years ago but that has changed. There will be some of which that is not true; that is why we focus on those that require change and those that are currently coasting. But the evidence across England, not least here in London, is that the quality of what is going on has improved for children and their needs are being met in a much better way.

Sadly, this is not the case in my own native country, Scotland. A report that was across the Scottish broadsheets this morning tells of a different story in Scotland. To the credit of the Scottish Government, the report was in part commissioned by them from the OECD. That different story is that attainment by school pupils has at best been coasting or has stagnated, but in a number of areas, particularly mathematics, it has slipped back. Look at how the statistics on improvement in social mobility compare between the two countries. It is much higher in England than in Scotland, where, despite students not paying fees, the proportion of people from difficult backgrounds being admitted to universities is slipping, not advancing as it is here.

There is evidence that something good is happening here. I see a significant part of that—if not the only part—as the stimulus and energising that the whole academy movement, started by the Labour Government and continued more forcibly by this Government, takes in the right direction. Whether it is the right direction is the kind of decision that we are making now. We are saying that we will either continue with this direction or find ways of trying to stymie it or slow it down. That will not do for the needs of the individual children.

I am so embarrassed about Scotland. I have spoken in this House before—I do not want to do so again now—about how much I owed immediately after the war to Woodside primary school, in the north end of Aberdeen. My goodness, what I owe to that place! It was the kind of school that never coasted but it certainly improved social mobility dramatically. That improvement is absent in Scotland; it is not absent here now in the way that it was, so things are moving in the right direction.

The issue then is: are we going to support this? I am very keen to see the regulations that will define coasting but, as I say, we are not starting from a null base. Ofsted has a working definition and it has not been faulted so far. We all know the look of a coasting organisation; think of the many organisations that your Lordships represent. We have seen coasting and stagnating organisations, and those that are advancing.

I very much welcome the government amendments here and suggest that the criterion we use should be whether this will help individual pupils tomorrow or the day after to improve their position. My worry about processes being extended, by whatever means, is that it will slow that down. I made the point at Second Reading that, as it is, it takes three years of statistics, a year to set the thing in place and a year to analyse them—which means five years of delay. Again, this is not good enough, so I suggest that we advance the Bill and the main clauses in it.

However, I have to say to the Government that we will be watching. We do not believe that this is a Rolls-Royce version that will be for ever good and perfect. As such, it will be subject to constant comments in this House and elsewhere; we will be watching. But the direction is right and I therefore support the government amendments and advancing the Bill to the next stage.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

Having read over the amendments, I wonder about one small technical point in Amendment 24. Proposed new Section 2B says:

“An Academy agreement in respect of an Academy school … must include provision allowing the Secretary of State to terminate the agreement if … the Academy is coasting”.

Proposed new subsection (6) says the definition of coasting will be put forward in regulations, and I am just wondering about the date at which that applies. As I understand it, there is provision in the definition of coasting, and in the system to be used for setting it up, which allows the definition to be changed. If that is so, will it have an effect on the agreements retrospectively? How will it work? This is a very technical kind of point but quite an important one, because it is an essential of the agreement to have this definition of coasting in it.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to this group of amendments. I apologise that I was not present and did not speak at Second Reading, but I had not yet been introduced to the House.

I warmly welcome the amendments that have been put forward by the Government. The fact that they have come forward in response to amendments from all over the House demonstrates what I believe to be a great truth of education reform, which is its bipartisan nature. It has been put forward by many Governments over many years, and accelerated by this one. We see that in action today.

In 2012, I wrote a paper for Policy Exchange which called for a level playing field and a single regulatory regime, and for coasting schools to be intervened on, so I am especially delighted to see that the Government have put forward the extension of this regime to academies. It is incredibly important for the reputation of academies that this is the case. I declare my interest as the managing director of an academy trust which will now be within the clutches of this—so my noble friend is making my life more difficult for me, which I am very grateful for. The idea in Amendment 24 of this detailed process for intervening in academies is incredibly important. It is important for academies to know that they are within the single regime and that the expectations that apply to all other schools also apply to them. I know the retrospective nature is uncomfortable for many but it is incredibly important.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, asked in particular about what happens when an academy is intervened on. There have been plenty of examples already of academies that have had to be—in the horrible terminology—rebrokered, because they have not performed. Although they are a rare exception, there are instances already of this happening, so we are not entering into new territory here with coasting schools. It must be right that, as time goes on, we raise the bar of what we expect in terms of performance in all our schools—maintained, academy or other—so I welcome that. There are around 300 inadequate schools at the moment and there may be around 1,000 coasting schools, so we are continuing to raise the bar for all school providers, which must be the correct thing to do.

I will talk very briefly about Amendment 15, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Addington, about whether to include non-academic measures into the definition of coasting. Some other noble Lords mentioned this as well. The schools that I run have a very big focus on character education, so I absolutely believe that there is more to education than passing exams, but you get into some very difficult territory if you want to exclude schools that perhaps have good extra-curricular activity but poor standards. There is a problem of measurement. Any definition which is going to be workable and not challengeable has to be based on objective data. It is very difficult to get objective measurements of the quality of schools other than their academic standards.

I also happen to think that, in the end, schools are responsible for providing a great education. If they can do the other bits, fantastic, but if they are not providing a good academic education, they should be intervened in. What is more, any sensible or wise sponsor would want, as they always do, to keep what is excellent and change what is not good. Although I understand the impulse behind the amendment, in practice it is not workable. In any case, first and foremost, the department and anyone else who is intervening in a school should be worried about standards. I very much welcome my noble friend’s amendments and commend him on his determination and on listening to opinion from across the House.

Childcare Bill [HL]

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Wednesday 14th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB)]

I shall simply add to what my noble friend has just said a concern that I have, as vice-president of the Local Government Association. The Minister well knows that local government faces a funding gap of probably £9.5 billion, and £6.6 billion of cost pressures by 2020. My concern relates to the development of the Childcare Bill, about which I am very positive; for working families, it will make all the difference. My question is about the wider envelope of the funding review. When we get that review, will we actually understand in those totals what local authorities will have to give up and where the pressures will be to meet the extraordinary cost of childcare provision? We have to be very aware of the perverse consequences that might arise, and I would like the analysis to look at the pressure on small units in particular. Loss of the cross-subsidy will result in them having to close, because local authorities are not prepared to pay top-up fees; as the Minister knows, I have personal experience of that happening.

In conclusion, will the wider envelope take account of not only the Childcare Bill but the other pressures on local authorities? If so, what kind of priorities will be set, and can the wider review examine the cross-subsidy issue and the loss of places across the country?

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, I have listened to the comments made in support of the amendment—Amendments 30 and 31 are really just consequential. The amendment requires that the report on finance should take place before Clauses 1 to 3 come into force in an Act of Parliament. It does not require information to be provided at Report. What is more, the amendment contemplates that the clauses will be enforced before the review can take place and be completed. The arguments in support of the amendment are therefore not precisely in accordance with the amendment itself, because the terms of the amendment would be satisfied if the information came forward before the clauses were brought into force—which, of course, is after the Bill reaches the statute book.

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

I shall make one brief comment just to remind your Lordships that there probably will not be a better opportunity in this Parliament to improve social mobility. A well-funded early education service is one of the best means to ensure that the least advantaged young people and families do better and have a fair chance equal to those who have greater privileges. What is at stake is that, if this Bill is adequately funded, we will expand that offer to many more families; more parents will go into work, lifting their children out of poverty. Yes, mainly it will benefit the middle class, but it will also benefit some of the more disadvantaged. If the Bill is not adequately funded, this will not only be a poor offer but it will steal money from and impoverish the rest of the service. So we need to be absolutely clear that we have here either an opportunity to make a difference to social mobility that we will not otherwise have in this Parliament, or an opportunity to fail. Perhaps it is comforting to realise that, because the Prime Minister’s commitment to social mobility may give us some hope that, even in this difficult financial climate, the money will be found to make this work.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I ask my noble friend whether—assuming that Amendment 18 is agreed to, and not Amendment 2—the Secretary of State will be liable if a local authority fails in some way in its duty under this Bill.

[Lord Nash]

I assume that is the whole point of the duty. I imagine that the answer to that question is yes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sutherland of Houndwood]

My Lords, I do not often listen to myself in debates but I did so earlier on and began to wonder if I was sitting on the right set of Benches, on a Cross Bench. However, I am now reassured that I am, on two grounds. First, I welcome the report of the Delegated Powers Committee very warmly indeed: somewhat more so than the Minister. Secondly, I support the amendment on a belt-and-braces basis. The point has just been made that there are many uncertainties here and we need to be reassured that these will be resolved on the Floor of this House.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I have one comment on the report of the Delegated Powers Committee. If all Bills had to be preceded by a Green Paper and a White Paper, there would be a long interval after a general election before there would be any legislation at all. Some people would welcome that but, on the other hand, those who are anxious to fulfil their commitments might not wish to wait that long.

[Lord Nash]

The Government recognise and understand the expressed views and wishes of the House and the Delegated Powers Committee to be able to debate the regulations in more detail. Our amendments will provide a higher degree of parliamentary scrutiny beyond the original intention. Furthermore, the department will continue to consult on any material changes to the regulations once they have been approved and laid under the negative procedure. We recognise the importance of seeking the views of parents, local authorities and providers. Each time the regulations that underpin the current entitlement have been amended, which is only four times, they have been subject to a public consultation. The current entitlement is subject to a negative procedure and we are not persuaded that this situation is sufficiently different to warrant finding parliamentary time for changes which may be minor. The department will continue to follow this good practice and will consult on any material changes to regulations made under Section 1 and regulations made for the purposes of discharging the Secretary of State’s duty under what will become Section 2. Therefore, in the Government’s view, it would not be necessary to include this type of direction on the face of the Bill. I hope noble Lords will be reassured by my explanation that we have listened to their concerns and taken them seriously. I therefore urge the noble Baroness not to press Amendment 27, and for noble Lords to accept government Amendments 26, 28 and 29.

Academies Bill [HL]

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Wednesday 7th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, when we discussed consultation in Committee, I said that I would think further. In doing so, I have kept very much in mind the distinction drawn by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, in that debate between what he called the spirit of consultation and an overly prescriptive legislative approach. That is an important distinction that will inform my response to the other amendments in the group.

Before responding to those amendments, I wish to speak to Amendment 30, explain the background to it and respond to the points that have been made. Many noble Lords expressed the desire in Committee to see something in the Bill on the expectation to consult. That point was put to me by my noble friend Lady Williams and other noble friends, and by Members on the Benches opposite. I reflected on that and, while the general direction of our policy is rightly to be less prescriptive, I recognised the need to reassure the House further and came back with my amendment.

My amendment aims to introduce a statutory requirement for a maintained school to consult on its proposal to convert to academy status. The school's governing body must consult such persons as it thinks appropriate. The consultation, as has been pointed out in the amendment, may take place before or after an application for an academy order has been made in respect of the school, or after it has been granted. That will allow each school to determine when it has sufficient information on which to consult, and at what point during the application process it wishes to do so. It is our view that schools are in the best position to determine when and how best consultation should take place. They might prefer to approach parents or others at the point at which they have firm proposals. The requirement in the amendment is therefore that the consultation must be held before the funding agreement is signed, since that is the point at which the school would be legally committed to the conversion process.

My noble friend Lady Walmsley made a point about academy orders. As the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, knows probably better than I do, they are a step along the way but are not irreversible. It is proper for consultation to take place based on the facts, the evidence and the specific proposal, right up to the point at which the funding agreement is signed—when, as noble Lords know, the process is irreversible.

Many types of schools will have different views on whom and how to consult, and we prefer to trust them to determine how to do this rather than provide an inflexible checklist. I think that that point is broadly accepted, although not by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I will pick him up on one point. He said that these deals could be stitched up in smoke-filled rooms. Because of legislation passed by his Government, the rooms could not be smoke-filled. We are not in favour of the more inflexible approach. We must trust professionals to make decisions of this sort. In line with the commitment that we are giving, we are amending our advice to converting schools on the department's website to include guidance on good consultation practice. We will discuss with an applying school as part of the conversion process what arrangements it has made for consultation.

I turn to Amendment 28. The Secretary of State will want to review each application for an academy order on its merits. As we discussed earlier, there needs to be flexibility in those considerations, as there always has been with academies policy. Our guidance for academy converters that are not yet rated outstanding will be published on our website. It will include details of the information to be included in an application.

We are not persuaded of the need for the Secretary of State to consult on academy conversions, as Amendment 29 proposes. It should be the school's decision to become an academy except in those cases where the school is eligible for intervention. Therefore, we do not believe that it is necessary for both the Secretary of State and the school to consult on the matter.

I do not expect that this will satisfy everyone. I have sought with my amendment to capture what I felt was the mood of the House and the desire for more reassurance, given the importance that the Government attach to consultation. Making it a statutory requirement in the Bill provides the greater degree of reassurance that noble Lords asked for. I therefore commend Amendment 30 and ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, am I right in thinking that an order does not convert a school into an academy but enables it to be converted into an academy, and that the conversion takes place later when the agreement is consummated? Am I right also that Amendment 30 requires that the consultation takes place before the school is converted into an academy, which can be after the order is made because the school has not yet converted into an academy?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That was the point that I was seeking to make.

Academies Bill [HL]

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Tuesday 6th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, it has been an extremely interesting debate and all sides have contributed a lot to one’s thinking. I am sympathetic to the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Perry. Perhaps I should declare my interest as president of the NGA, because I think that the vast majority of governing bodies are responsible organisations that represent local areas considerably.

I agree that there are two points. Should primary schools be part of the scheme? Yes, I think that they should be. Are they so different that we have to wait for the next Bill to come through? I rather doubt that. We could begin the process now. The Secretary of State has considerable powers already and bodies such as diocesan boards are clearly strong partners.

Bearing in mind the issue of special educational needs, which is important to us all, I would like to know whether SEN pupils will be disadvantaged if we go down this route because they will not have the same backing from the local authority to provide the extra resource support that they are getting. That is my test. We could certainly begin with experiments now. I hope that the Minister can convince us that he will take a view on all these things before he gives the appropriate timescale for schools to apply to become academies.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I very much follow the line that the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, has taken. Assuming that some primary schools would eminently qualify—I rather thought that the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, said that there were some—I cannot see why it is right to delay the power to deal with them while you wait to see if others should join them. One has to remember that this is for primary schools and the time spent in primary school is comparatively short. We would deprive children who might well benefit from the system for a considerable portion of their primary school life. While delay is attractive from some points of view, it would damage those who are qualified now to obtain the benefit.

I believe that it is right for the Secretary of State to have discretion to receive these applications and to refuse those that he considers to be unsuitable or to delay them. I have no reason to doubt that he will exercise that discretion wisely. Apart from anything else, as the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, said, the Secretary of State will be judged and, if the schools are failures, that will come home to roost. I have no doubt that the noble Baroness is aware of that problem.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I am grateful for the comments made in this interesting debate. There have been three broad sets of comments. Clearly, some are not at all keen in principle that primary schools should become academies. Some on the Cross Benches who have spoken eloquently have said that primary schools should be given the chance to become academies, that there is no reason in principle why they should not and that there are safeguards to provide some reassurance. There is a third group, including some of my noble friends, who agree in principle that academy status for primary schools is good and that they should not be excluded but given the opportunity. But they want reassurance on the timing and the pace. I hope that I can provide that.

I understand the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about the particular sensitivity of primary schools and the special part that they play in local communities. The local primary school is very much part of the village where I live and I know that that is true throughout the country. On a general point, in the first instance we are talking about only a relatively modest number of outstanding primary schools. By definition, any that do not fall into that category will involve a longer process of establishing the criteria to enable us to work these things through. If an outstanding local primary were to become an academy, it is not clear why it should automatically become less of a part of the local community, village or town life. It will have the same head, staff, parents and children with some additional freedoms. I am not clear why the change of status should suddenly make those people in their villages, towns and communities suddenly start to behave differently.

Our starting point is that we are keen that schools should determine whether academy status is right for them but I accept that in some—perhaps many—primary schools, it may not be the right decision for them. They may not have the right experience or feel comfortable, in which case they will not want to make the change. Even though there may be many schools for which it is not suitable, that does not mean that those that want to become academies and believe that it is a viable option for which they have the appetite should be prevented from doing so. That links to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, about the double lock in that category. To respond to the question asked directly by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, it is only outstanding primary schools that will be able to convert quickly. Others will have to meet criteria that we will publish. The question of capacity will include leadership issues.

Academies Bill [HL]

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Excerpts

Monday 21st June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Northbourne]

My Lords, I should like to set down a marker. If academies are required to accept children with special educational needs, those who understand the needs of those children should be consulted to find out what the effect of the academy would be on their well-being.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, it seems to me that there is a good deal to be said for consultation in this area, in accordance with the spirit of what was said in relation to the big society, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool has pointed out. I am sure that we very much support what the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said about the desirability of reducing the impact of litigation in this area, as that could at best produce only bitterness. Although it might provide rewards for some, it is not a particularly attractive process. Perhaps the consultation should be the responsibility of the Secretary of State rather than of one of the parties given that consultation originated by the Secretary of State, on an application being made to him or her, would be more likely to be regarded as proper consultation than would consultation initiated by the party making the application. Open-mindedness is implicit in the notion of consultation and I am not certain that a party wanting to make an application would necessarily have sufficient detachment to make the consultation effective.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, following that point, we need to be clear what we are consulting about. There has to be meaningful consultation in this regard. If we are dealing with a school judged outstanding by Ofsted, and the governing body and the head teacher have said that they wish to apply for academy status because they believe that it will give them greater freedom, then what exactly is there to consult about? There seems to me to be a strong case there. I noted the comments made about the right of children to be consulted under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. However, who consulted the children when a school was failing? Where was their voice then? Who came round with a clipboard saying, “Tell me what you think about the fact that you’re getting 20 per cent five A to Cs when the guys up the road are getting 60 and 70 per cent?” We have to be clear about what the consultation seeks to achieve and be absolutely sure that we are not trying to delay a process. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and his successor wrestled with that process in relation to the academy programme. Consultation could sometimes go on for years while schools were failing. Where a school body has an outstanding record, the process should be allowed to proceed on the say-so of its governing body. However, where a school is failing, in my view the governing body has forgone any rights in that regard and the Secretary of State has a right to intervene. That is in the best interests of children and parents.